GK 2000 - Help decide for Brotherhoods.

[Skywrath]

Sorry if lately I'm coming across as spammy with list ideas - new codex, mind is working overdrive coming up with ideas. As expected, a tournament is coming up (a very big one) and I settled on Grey Knights. Problem is, I can't decide between the 4th Brotherhood and the 6th Brotherhood. Here's the list:

 

 

++ Battalion Detachment 0CP (Imperium - Grey Knights) [112 PL, 10CP, 1,996pts] ++

 

+ Configuration +

 

Battle Size [12CP]: 3. Strike Force (101-200 Total PL / 1001-2000 Points) 

 

Brotherhood: Rapiers

 

Detachment Command Cost

 

+ HQ +

 

Brother-Captain [7 PL, -1CP, 130pts]: 1: Daemon Slayer, 3: Unyielding Anvil, 5: Warp Shaping, Blade of the Forsworn, Exemplar of the Silver Host, Master-crafted storm bolter, Servant of the Throne, Warlord

. Nemesis Force Sword

 

Brotherhood Chaplain [8 PL, 140pts]: 1. Words of Power, 3: Sanctuary, Foretelling of Locus

 

Lord Kaldor Draigo [10 PL, 180pts]: 1: Gate of Infinity, 2: Empyric Amplification, 4: Vortex of Doom

 

+ Troops +

 

Brotherhood Terminator Squad [24 PL, 420pts]

. Grey Knight Terminator Justicar

. . Nemesis Force Halberd

. 7x Terminator (Halberd): 7x Nemesis Force Halberd, 7x Storm Bolter

. 2x Terminator (Warding Stave): 2x Nemesis Warding Stave, 2x Storm Bolter

 

Strike Squad [6 PL, 110pts]

. 4x Grey Knight (Sword): 4x Nemesis Force Sword, 4x Storm Bolter

. Grey Knight Justicar

. . Nemesis Force Halberd

 

Strike Squad [6 PL, 110pts]

. 4x Grey Knight (Sword): 4x Nemesis Force Sword, 4x Storm Bolter

. Grey Knight Justicar

. . Nemesis Force Halberd

 

+ Elites +

 

Brotherhood Ancient [6 PL, -1CP, 125pts]: 1: Gate of Infinity, 4: First to the Fray, A Noble Death, Nemesis Falchion, Shield of Humanity

 

Paladin Squad [13 PL, 171pts]: 3: Hammerhand, 4: Purifying Flame

. 2x Paladin (Daemon Hammer): 2x Nemesis Daemon Hammer, 2x Storm Bolter

. Paragon

. . Nemesis Daemon Hammer: Nemesis Daemon Hammer

 

+ Fast Attack +

 

Interceptor Squad [14 PL, 240pts]

. Interceptor (Halberd)

. 8x Interceptor (Sword): 8x Nemesis Force Sword, 8x Storm Bolter

. Interceptor Justicar

. . Nemesis Force Halberd

 

+ Heavy Support +

 

Nemesis Dreadknight [9 PL, 185pts]: Dreadfist, Dreadknight teleporter, Gatling Psilencer, Heavy Psycannon, Nemesis Greatsword

 

Nemesis Dreadknight [9 PL, 185pts]: Dreadfist, Dreadknight teleporter, Gatling Psilencer, Heavy Psycannon, Nemesis Greatsword

 

++ Total: [112 PL, 10CP, 1,996pts] ++

 

Created with BattleScribe (https://battlescribe.net)

 

RAPIERS BROTHERHOOD IS A PLACEHOLDER!

 

So as you see, my BC is equipped to deal with three things - either Mortarion, Demons or the PBC, which nets me the killing demons secondary/teleport assault. After getting my teeth kicked in the last tournament as Dark Angels with Mortarion, I'm positively dying for payback. I'm expecting to see a lot of lists running Morty. However, this list runs into a bit of a decision problem - Rapiers or Prescient. Here's the problem.

 

Rapiers argument:

 

I'm anticipating my list to carry on in my typical fashion - deepstrike T2, aggressive mid board-control from 2nd turn onwards. Also having that +1 attack from Symphonic strike would work well in horde armies, Mortarion, PBC and anything that has the Demon, Monster, and Vehicle keyword. Which is mostly everything. So my BC would have 7 attacks in total, wounding morty on 2's, at D4 thanks to empyric amplification, which then goes down to 3. Theoretically, he dies in a turn, especially if the two dreadknights at the back are shooting, and then my BC continues his onslaught. This can compound in the Rapiers strat where 6's to hit generate additional hits, which reinforces that argument further. That also gives me 1CP to play around with, which typically would increase my DS chance to 66% (8" with celerity) from 54-ish (9" with celerity). Typically with my charges, I fail them, so I'd want that extra assurance. The banner giving +1 attacks with the chaplain in convergence lists would absolutely vaporise anything they touch. This is a list primarily focused on convergence, which would be in effect from T3, as celerity would be from T2.

 

Prescient argument:

 

My recent games with prescient, as outlined in my other thread have been going fairly well. On the flipside of the equation, we still have the Mortarion killer BC, however if I go with prescient I lose the +1 attack from the psychic power, on top of the strat, which could come in clutch. Then comes the argument for the Divination psychic power - I found taking that WL trait makes my CP feel buttery-smooth. I don't seem to run out of them as easily. Then the Fatal Precognition power comes in pretty useful - shutting down admech blobs, deathshroud blobs, everything that moves - which is conductive to the mid-board control as I said. It still has the punch through the Ancient/Chaplain, but not as much as Rapiers, at the cost of potentially inflicting more mortals. Like the Rapiers path, this list would come onto it's own in T3 onwards - however in the tide of escalation, as I'd be relying on the spam. I also have the ability to re-roll 1's to hit and wound if I so choose, which would get me a similar result as running this list as rapiers, but I'd be giving that 1CP for the Divination trait compared to First into the Fray.

 

So with this in mind, what's more worth it? The extra attacks on 6's/+1 attack/+1 to charges vs CP Regen on WC5/re-roll 1's to hit and wound/Board control through Fatal Precognition?

[Skywrath]

Any opinions?

[Mr4Minutes]

If your goal is making sure you kill Morty, I think rapiers are your better option. Their CC buffs get you into make it happen mode.

 

Don’t forget Morty is going to be turning off your rerolls, so the Prescient Brethren strat won’t help against him.

[The Woodsman]

Depends on your local meta but I wouldn't worry too much about Mortarion. Mortal Wounds still really hurt him (even without the flat 4 Smites) and DKs can smack him in combat. The big squad of Terminators screams Preservers to me, but you'd need to sub the Ancient for an Apothecary to make the most out of it. I don't know if you want a list analysis or just a Brotherhood pick lol, so I'll stick the the titled question. 

 

I would go Prescients. I don't see you having enough volume of attacks to really go ham on exploding 6s and extra attacks to generate Convergence mortal wounds. The Terminators are too exepnsive for it IMO. The advantage of the Interceptors is that they are "cheap" for the ammount of attacks you can get (especially with Falchions which are probably best for fishing for those mortals) and they are so mobile that they can just zip up to whatever they need to kill and let loose. Terminators require a Deep Strike or a Gate if you want a chance of charging before turn 3. Not to say the Terminators aren't good, I really think they are... but in this instance I think being able to turn on a re-roll on the unit of your choice gives you a lot more versatility in where you can throw your big, expensive units. Rapiers is probably the "strongest" Brotherhood in terms of raw damage output, but you need to build accordingly with enough fast, high-volume of attack units to deliver a crippling blow as early as possible. If not your opponent can isolate your big damage dealers and concentrate said damage output in places you don't want it to be. Whereas wherever your units end up and whatever they end up fighting, those re-rolls are great. And the power can come in useful against big blobs of infantry that want to be moving around every turn, I agree. 

 

So just my thoughts, but list as it is I think does better as Prescients than Rapiers.

[Skywrath]

Unfortunately, the tournament organiser made a lot of bull  house-rulings, to which I had no choice but to withdraw from the tournament.

 

Summary of the  .

 

He made in-house rules designed to address GK "balance" issues, and only for GK, instead of the other more broken factions. What he did: Imagine not allowing us to cast the same sanctic power more than once, as if psychic confluence didn't exist, despite it clearly being outlined you can do that. On top of this, he capped the limit of the chaplain MW's litany to 1, instead of 2, if in Tide of Convergence. What's even more hilarious, is that he didn't bother to address the drukhari/admech bull:cuss in his in-house rules. Then he tried justifying this as "this is how it was meant to be interpreted", when the other top GK players play it RAW such as Lawrence. On top of this, practically half of his club are playing Drukhari/Admech, and he made a in-house ruling for the 3 GK players (including myself) out of the 60 odd players in it. What pisses me off even further is the fact that this was done 12hrs before list submissions were due, with no easy way to be notified, and with no way to change the list by the time I saw it.

Edited September 16, 2021 by Skywrath

[Gnomeo]

That sucks. I can totally understand the mortal wound thing with the Chaplin as there is still debate on that. But the santic ruling completely contradicts the codex. Personally I would put a formal complaint on that ruling as it seems like biases. The Chaplin one is understandble not great but understandable

[Skywrath]

That sucks. I can totally understand the mortal wound thing with the Chaplin as there is still debate on that. But the santic ruling completely contradicts the codex. Personally I would put a formal complaint on that ruling as it seems like biases. The Chaplin one is understandble not great but understandable

 

Yep. I'm on the other side of the argument that 2MW in tide of convergence is more or less balanced. There are other ways factions can do more MW than us in shooting, and we have more conditions then they do - wounding on 6's, and being in the tide. In my games, I rarely went into convergence (my fault there) and if I did, it'd be from T4 onwards. However the rulings were issued by his group, the TO being in his group - so you are 100% correct on the fact there are biases involved, and dare I say, personal vendettas. Me and the organiser always had a rocky relationship - to which he tried refusing my refund, and then highly encouraged me not to attend his future tournaments. To which I agreed to, after I let him know what a colossal idiot he was for making that ruling and subsequently excommunicating him from my social life.

 

Onto the business of formal complaint - at what level are you talking? Local or as in sending a letter to GW?

Edited September 16, 2021 by Skywrath

[Gnomeo]

GW don't get involved with local tournaments so would be along the lines of an email.to organisers stating your greviance. And that deisscions were made that directly conflict the codex with out clear reasoning. Unfortunately at the end of the day it's up to the tournament organisers discretion. But if that's the way they act I would personally encourage all my friends to boycott them.

The other thing is rulings like that ideally should be cleared up before the tournament.

[Skywrath]

GW don't get involved with local tournaments so would be along the lines of an email.to organisers stating your greviance. And that deisscions were made that directly conflict the codex with out clear reasoning. Unfortunately at the end of the day it's up to the tournament organisers discretion. But if that's the way they act I would personally encourage all my friends to boycott them.

The other thing is rulings like that ideally should be cleared up before the tournament.

 

That's the plan. But yeah, if he can't see why this is beyond infuriating, then that's someone that was never worthy of my time or effort.

[corwindal5]

Unfortunately, the tournament organiser made a lot of bull  house-rulings, to which I had no choice but to withdraw from the tournament.

 

Summary of the  .

 

He made in-house rules designed to address GK "balance" issues, and only for GK, instead of the other more broken factions. What he did: Imagine not allowing us to cast the same sanctic power more than once, as if psychic confluence didn't exist, despite it clearly being outlined you can do that. On top of this, he capped the limit of the chaplain MW's litany to 1, instead of 2, if in Tide of Convergence. What's even more hilarious, is that he didn't bother to address the drukhari/admech bull:cuss in his in-house rules. Then he tried justifying this as "this is how it was meant to be interpreted", when the other top GK players play it RAW such as Lawrence. On top of this, practically half of his club are playing Drukhari/Admech, and he made a in-house ruling for the 3 GK players (including myself) out of the 60 odd players in it. What pisses me off even further is the fact that this was done 12hrs before list submissions were due, with no easy way to be notified, and with no way to change the list by the time I saw it.

 

Where was the tourney?  

Edited September 17, 2021 by corwindal5

[Mr4Minutes]

We’ll, you can throw the new GW FAQ in his direction. Clearing up it is 2 MWs per 6(although the tide is capped).

 

Really disheartening to see them “errata” a recent codex tho. It’s 100% clear that not only is it RAW that each sanctic spell can be cast multiple times, it’s also RAI.

 

I would not only write the tournament organizers a letter, but also some of the bigger 40K websites, like goonhammer, spikey bitz etc. That’s a terrible ruling and it should be pushed into more public knowledge.

[The Woodsman]

Yeah especially since the TO is clearly targetting GK for some reason. If most of his club plays AdMech and Drukhari (which in my opinion can crumple pretty easily vs GK, no pyshic defence, units fairly vulnerable to storm bolter fire and even more vulnerable to the huge CC, GKs strong MW output that negates across the board invuls and FnP, mobility to match both factions' strengths aka Raider boats and Raider dogs/Sterilizers etc) then there is cleary some favoritsm going on or at the very least he's turning a blind eye to AdMech/Drukhari balance issues to please his player base. 

 

I'd also recommend writing him at the very list and agree with Mr4Minutes that top reporters should be informed. If I rememeber correctly @Skywrath you're in one of Auzland's major 40K areas, right? I feel like that kind of info should be out in the open. 

[Skywrath]

Well just got even worse. The group got the manager of the gaming store involved in this dispute (which until now I was on good terms with, with no previous warnings, haven't even attended that gaming place in the last 6 months), a party that's not even involved and today I got issued a lifetime ban because apparently their business model didn't agree with my issue with their promotional partner. 

 

I redacted the message below such as names/groups/institutions for privacy reasons. 

 

 

We are writing to you today in order to inform you that in light of your conduct with our promotional partner, we have concluded that you are no longer a welcome member of the store community.

 

This message is to be considered a life-time ban from attending our business premises and participating in events we host, effective immediately.

 

Yours Sincerely, The Team

 

 

Not really a problem as I haven't played there in a while, nor did I intend to, but this describes the amount of that just decided to stick to my windscreen. Any ideas what I should do now? I'm expecting this message or news of my ban to make it's way amongst the circles of Brisbane Warhammer now, or to the place I play.

Edited September 23, 2021 by Skywrath

[Mr4Minutes]

Man, that sucks. No way to appeal or anything like that?

[Skywrath]

Nope, plus my tone to him wasn't exactly friendly on the phone call, after I called him out on being a part of cancel culture, and prioritising profit over justice.