What about Tzaangors?

[Prot]

Just curious if anyone is using goats in their lists?

 

This has kind of been talked about but I think it's worth of its own topic because a good section of our codex is dedicated to them, yet I found I've kind of dropped off on their use.

 

My last 3-4 games my lists looked quite a bit different than my first 3-4 games. At first I was using every form of Tzaangor you could. Not because I love them, but because 'old habits' said they were a good idea.

 

I am starting to think that's not the case any more. So at this point I'm down to one 10 man squad of Tzaangors. No Shaman, no enlightened on disks, etc. 

 

So I'm curious how many of you are actively using them in your games... how many games have you tried with them? Are you using more or less of them?

[Ahzek451]

Tzaangors are in a semi- rough spot. At first glance one sees cheap objective holders. And they are. But for a small handful of pts more you get a much more valuable min rubric squad. Tzaangors by themselves are ok. The damage output hurts at 4+. It either takes an investment in cp or purchasing a shaman to make them effective in combat. But at this point, one would rather spend the points in other things.

 

The blades still outshine the pistol options which is sad.

 

The enlightened are fast, but the damage output is pretty bad. The long range and the ability to pick a character out is great, but we're looking at only being useful if a character had one wound left. And giving them chainswords and pistols is unheard of. The lance is ok, but they still crumble in combat. Outside of a couple spells, the synergy with anything else just isnt there.

 

It's a situation where rubrics and spawn just outshine tzaangor in many ways.

 

I feel like, I will only use tzaangor myself if I am finishing my list and I can't find the points to take an extra rubric squad.

 

Biggest shame, for me, is the fact that the clearly 40k aesthetic option(chainswords and pistols), is still the worst option.

 

You got things like the admech sniper horses outshining enlightened with bows in nearly every way.

 

Side note: I was really hoping disc blades would have changed. A single s4 hit....eh? I had hoped it would have at least been an extra 3 hits, d6 hits, possible a point of ap?

Edited September 5, 2021 by Ahzek451

[Mushkilla]

The Saltier Classic GT - Benjamin Cromer – Thousand Sons – 4th Place

 ++ Battalion Detachment 0CP (Chaos – Thousand Sons) [87 PL, 9CP, 11 Cabal Points, 1,659pts] ++

+ Configuration +

Cults of the Legion: Cult of Time

Detachment Command Cost

+ Stratagems +

Sorcerous Arcana [-2CP]: 2x Additional Relics

+ HQ +

Ahriman [10 PL, 3 Cabal Points, 180pts]: 11. Gaze of Hate, 11. Tzeentch’s Firestorm, 13. Dark Blessing, Black Staff of Ahriman, Frag & Krak grenades, Inferno Bolt Pistol, Smite
. . Disc of Tzeentch: Disc blades

Infernal Master [5 PL, 2 Cabal Points, 90pts]: 1. Bladed Maelstrom, 21. Temporal Manipulation, 5. Glimpse of Eternity, Force stave, Inferno Bolt Pistol, Umbralefic Crystal

Thousand Sons Daemon Prince [10 PL, 3 Cabal Points, 185pts]: 13. Doombolt, 22. Swelled by the Warp, 3. Undying Form, Hellforged sword, Hourglass of Manat, Malefic talon, Smite, Warlord, Wings

+ Troops +

Rubric Marines [6 PL, 1 Cabal Points, 123pts] . . Aspiring Sorcerer: 12. Glamour of Tzeentch, Force stave, Inferno Bolt Pistol, Smite
. . Rubric Marine w/ inferno boltgun: Inferno boltgun
. . 3x Rubric Marine w/ warpflamer: 3x Warpflamer

Tzaangors [4 PL, 70pts] . . Twistbray: Tzaangor blades
. . 9x Tzaangor w/ Tzaangor blades: 9x Tzaangor blades

Tzaangors [4 PL, 70pts] . . Twistbray: Tzaangor blades
. . 9x Tzaangor w/ Tzaangor blades: 9x Tzaangor blades

Tzaangors [4 PL, 70pts] . . Twistbray: Tzaangor blades
. . 9x Tzaangor w/ Tzaangor blades: 9x Tzaangor blades

+ Elites +

Chaos Contemptor Dreadnought [8 PL, -1CP, 175pts]: Hellforged cyclone missile launcher, 2x Twin volkite culverin

Helbrute [7 PL, 120pts]: Multi-melta, Power scourge

Helbrute [7 PL, 120pts]: Multi-melta, Power scourge

Scarab Occult Terminators [10 PL, 1 Cabal Points, 205pts] . . Scarab Occult Sorcerer: 21. Presage, Force stave, Inferno combi-bolter, Smite
. . 3x Terminator: 3x Inferno combi-bolter, 3x Prosperine khopesh
. . Terminator w/ Heavy Weapon: Prosperine khopesh, Soulreaper cannon

Scarab Occult Terminators [10 PL, 1 Cabal Points, 205pts] . . Scarab Occult Sorcerer: 21. Presage, Force stave, Inferno combi-bolter, Smite
. . 3x Terminator: 3x Inferno combi-bolter, 3x Prosperine khopesh
. . Terminator w/ Heavy Weapon: Prosperine khopesh, Soulreaper cannon

+ Fast Attack +

Chaos Spawn [1 PL, 23pts] . . Chaos Spawn: Hideous mutations

Chaos Spawn [1 PL, 23pts] . . Chaos Spawn: Hideous mutations

++ Patrol Detachment -2CP (Chaos – Thousand Sons) [18 PL, -3CP, 6 Cabal Points, 340pts] ++

+ Configuration +

Cults of the Legion: Cult of Mutation

Detachment Command Cost [-2CP]

+ HQ +

Exalted Sorcerer [8 PL, -1CP, 3 Cabal Points, 155pts]: 1. Arrogance of Aeons, 23. Baleful Devolution, 23. Temporal Surge, Egleighen’s Orrery, Force stave, Frag & Krak grenades, High Acolytes, Inferno Bolt Pistol, Prosperine khopesh, Rehani, Smite
. . Disc of Tzeentch: Disc blades

+ Troops +

Rubric Marines [6 PL, 2 Cabal Points, 115pts]: Icon of Flame
. . Aspiring Sorcerer: 12. Glamour of Tzeentch, Force stave, Inferno Bolt Pistol, Smite
. . 4x Rubric Marine w/ inferno boltgun: 4x Inferno boltgun

+ Elites +

Tzaangor Shaman [4 PL, 1 Cabal Points, 70pts]: 22. Weaver of Fates, Force stave, Smite
. . Disc of Tzeentch: Disc blades

Has three units of 10 tzaangors. They seem fine for cheap obsec units (T4/5++ is nice at 7pts).

I also think the shamans are a bargain at 70pts. Great for psychic actions. Sorcerers are slow and have two casts so seems like a waste to use them for psychic actions (especially seeing as we can't do the core warpcraft ones with rubrics). Edited September 5, 2021 by Mushkilla

[Prot]

Hmmm not bad. Kind of goes against the grain of juicing up the cabal points but maybe I’ve been over valuing that stat. 
 

I agree the troop is decent price. I guess the shaman is a good price but 80 points just feels better towards a rubric squad than an action monkey. I may try the shaman again though. Probably only really advisable with multiple Tzaangor troops though. 
 

that said I’m really underwhelmed by the Enlightenment with bows so far. 

[GreenPlasma]

Shaman are only 70pts Prot.

 

I don’t think their +1 to hit aura has much play. What makes them valuable is being disposable. They can force through a psychic secondary with no regard for consequences. They can get vision for Warp Sight. They can Warptime 24” and Doombolt, Smite, and Malevolent an artillery piece before tagging it with their staff. Or just hide somewhere inconvenient scoring Engage while generating 1CP per turn. This is something we can’t do with ESorcs or Princes, they just aren’t disposable in the same way. I have not been considering Shaman until writing this but honestly, they bring some unique functionality to the army.

[Mushkilla]

Yup, good old tzeentch pocket rocket (2CP 4CAP) on 12" movement platform is gonna have some use. 

 

Doombolt -> Great Sorcerer -> Smite -> Malefic Scroll -> Malevolent Charge = 7-9MW.

[Prot]

I understand the point value of a Shaman. 
 

ive played about 2-3 games with them but what Mushkilla turned me on to is the Rubric value. The 70 points gets you well on the way to a basic Rubric squad which I just value far more. 
 

you can do a lot of what you mention. But the Rubrics are a more defensive option. A lot of the scoring opportunities with the Shaman often put him in harms way.  
 

by defensive I’m referring to Obsec scoring with less chance of giving up Witches secondary. I really think that secondary is too punishing still and most of my opponents have had the opportunity to take it and that Shaman can be forced in a very limited role compared to the Rubric option…. If you can find the points. 
 

that said this gives me some incentive to try put him back in the list. Although honestly I haven’t missed him at all since removing him. 

Edited September 6, 2021 by Prot

[Mushkilla]

I understand the point value of a Shaman. 

 

ive played about 2-3 games with them but what Mushkilla turned me on to is the Rubric value. The 70 points gets you well on the way to a basic Rubric squad which I just value far more. 

 

you can do a lot of what you mention. But the Rubrics are a more defensive option. A lot of the scoring opportunities with the Shaman often put him in harms way.  

 

by defensive I’m referring to Obsec scoring with less chance of giving up Witches secondary. I really think that secondary is too punishing still and most of my opponents have had the opportunity to take it and that Shaman can be forced in a very limited role compared to the Rubric option…. If you can find the points. 

 

that said this gives me some incentive to try put him back in the list. Although honestly I haven’t missed him at all since removing him. 

 

Yeah, 5 basic rubrics is a steal at 105pts. But they can't do psychic actions outside of mutate landscape (something I'm hoping will be changed in the 2022 GT rules). The other limit I'm running into is in a single battalion you can only run 6 rubric squads. In that context where you can't take anymore rubrics the shamans are valuable too.  

 

If we had cheap heavy support choices I'd maybe even consider a battalion as it would be easy to fill out with shaman/solo spawn. I wonder if we have any cheap forgeworld heavy support options?

Edited September 6, 2021 by Mushkilla

[WarriorFish]

It's good to have the option. Now I have some goat people from Hexfire I am thinking about them. As a cheap combat element, and the Shaman to fill a niche I think they could be decent. I don't see myself getting any more though as they will always be a supplement to the main dish. It still feels a bit weird how the pistol option is still so bad, but it seems like it's "working as intended" now? :confused:

[Prot]

 

 

 

that said this gives me some incentive to try put him back in the list. Although honestly I haven’t missed him at all since removing him. 

 

Yeah, 5 basic rubrics is a steal at 105pts. But they can't do psychic actions outside of mutate landscape (something I'm hoping will be changed in the 2022 GT rules). The other limit I'm running into is in a single battalion you can only run 6 rubric squads. In that context where you can't take anymore rubrics the shamans are valuable too.  

 

If we had cheap heavy support choices I'd maybe even consider a battalion as it would be easy to fill out with shaman/solo spawn. I wonder if we have any cheap forgeworld heavy support options?

 

 

Why do I believe you're actually serious when you say you can 'only' run 6 Rubric squads? ;)

 

Cheap Forgeworld would be nice. Not cheap but kind of off topic I've been considering my Fire Raptor with this army just for the lols.

 

I think Tzaangor wise I'm still leaning towards just sticking a cheap 10 man squad. It's really hard not to get value out of that. I still like a lot of variety in my lists. The Flame-bric itself has got me up to 4 squads of Rubrics.

 

If I wasn't such a huge fan of Spawn and Helbrutes... and my Ecto-Fiend experiment, I probably would fill my Rubric count too, and leave the Tzaangors at back field clogging.

[GreenPlasma]

A lot of the scoring opportunities with the Shaman often put him in harms way... by defensive I’m referring to Obsec scoring with less chance of giving up Witches secondary. I really think that secondary is too punishing still and most of my opponents have had the opportunity to take it and that Shaman can be forced in a very limited role compared to the Rubric option.

A kicker is never going to be seen as the backbone of an American football team, but field goals can still be decisive. A limited role isn’t necessarily a disqualifying one.

 

As an example, take Veil in smaller games. A Shaman can slingshot 25-30” into irrelevant obscuring terrain and score 15VP if left alone. That’s clearly asking for a response but what’s available that is economical, fast, killy and won’t just get blown away by a MW combo? There is a non-zero chance that there is not an answer. Your opponent does not want to divert 200-250 points of Allarus Terminators or Jetbikes into his own backfield to chase after a Tzaangor Shaman.

 

More generally, Abhor doesn’t reward games that revolve around trading units. Warpcraft secondaries can be bloodless, we slingshot out after performing the action. Interrogate and TTL alone can be 30VP, if that’s sorted we can lean on Tzaangors (that don’t give Abhor points!) for Shadow Ops and Supremacy secondaries. I see a lot of benefits in list construction in respects to Tzaangors and Shaman. They just aren’t going to replace Rubrics and Terminators who do the heavy lifting of the primary mission, or units like Spawn, Helbrutes, and Mutaliths who have the chops to terrorize the mid-board.

[Mordas]

So I was running our local gaming group club night last night and managed to get a game in for myself. These games are only at 1250pts but still a lot of fun, I did take a unit of Tzaangors and enlightened.

 

I used the Tzaangors wrong in game and threw them up the board with my demon prince and they ran into a brick wall in CC and just died even with a 4++. I was pretty disappointed in them despite being used incorrectly. The enlightened did help a lot grabbing an objective and then just camping on it out of sight for the game. I think the enlightened get to stay in my list a little longer for the moment but the Tzaangors are out.

 

If i wanted to use them to do objectives like ROD then its better to take 2x squads of cultists and reserve them and bring them on one at a time do the secondary and then just be annoying if they last. So the only reason I see to bring the Tzaangors is to hold your home objective and even then I think I prefer to bring another squad of Rubrics, they are so much better and help with the Cabal points which would have been handy in last nights game.

[GreenPlasma]

Cultists don’t get Objective Secure, that’s quite a drawback.

 

Regarding Tzaangor Enlightened, you can get 4x attacks at S7 AP1 on the Aviarch with Swelled by the Warp and Divining Spears, that’s kind of cool. Rerolling hits under the new stratagem gives a decent chance to generate auto-wounds. Not exactly earth-shattering offensive power but squeezing max value out of a 54pt unit is neat. I like the concept of getting maximum traction from economy units like this.