Prot's UM stroll down memory (Heresy) lane.

[Prot]

So I'm trying to make a fun list that might have some 'compete' in it. 

 

Lots of Primaris at my disposal, not so much classic marines. So the goal is to have a reason to build those guys, paint them up again (for the millionth time!) and have some fun with the classic range mixed into my primaris.

 

Since I ordered the HH ultra models, I'm looking at Idaho's advice on this:

 

 

How good are you at magnetising?

A Terminator Captain can take advantage of the aura provided by a Chaplain, as we all know, to get very good odds on a teleport charge.

Turn 1 is about making space for them with your army so they can't be easily screened out.

Turn 2 your units come down and begin the attack.

Weapons:

A Relic Blade and Combi-melta are still powerful options for a jack of all trades kind of Captain in 40K, but you won't have that edge of danger a Thunder Hammer might exude.

On that note, whilst blasting something with a Melta gun is fun and handy at times, but he is generally going to be much more difficult to remove with a Storm Shield.

Which brings us nicely to Relics. I consider the following builds decent with an Ultramarines Captain:
 

i) Meltagun, Relic Blade and Sanctic Halo - this gives utility, moderate killing capacity and survivability. It also helps us with an extra deny against certain new peddlers of cheese Codex books recently released. Command Rerolls on a 3+ save are fun with this combination. Iron Resolve seems to stack well with a 3+ Invulnerable save.

ii) Thunder hammer and Storm Shield - come on now, this guy is the no brainer! For Relic I'd go with the Censured Helm as the rerolls will be crucial whilst against power armoured foes you'll be getting +1 to hit and wound as well! All other opposition will still find his rerolls to hit and wound makes him a dangerous proposition. Imperium's Sword jumps out at me thanks to the reroll to charges and another attack is always welcome.

iii) Meltagun and Relic Blade/Thunder Hammer - Another Censured Helm combination here, as you can net wounding on a 2+ with a S7 Relic Blade and increased damage output with melee in general. Another nice aspect to this is the Censured Helm works in shooting, so you can get high chances of hitting and wounding with that Meltagun and potentially even getting wounds on a 2+ against Marine vehicles of <T8, 3+ otherwise.

iv) Any melee weapon and Storm Shield, along with the Tarentian Cloak. A 1+ armour save and 4+ Invulnerable along with 6 wounds should see him through most damage and you can stack with Iron Resolve (+1 wound) for a very high chance of surviving the turn to use the healing effect from the Relic. Couple this with an Apothecary and you could be getting 6 wounds back a turn!

v) Any melee weapon, Storm Shield, the Angel Artiface and Iron Resolve - 1+ save, toughness 5, 8 wounds and still a killy character. Very difficult to take down in most circumstances and if you get an Apothecary nearby there's even less of a chance of him dying.

Other possibilities include a Mastercrafted Relic Blade, but really you'll miss an alternative Relic plus a Thunder Hammer against tough and large targets. Likewise, the Shield Eternal doesn't quite strike me as something particularly high over other Relics since you can get a reduced version of that effect with Iron Resolve, but it's not terrible either.

Lastly, I'd usually go for a Chapter Champion over a Company Champion upgraded to Chapter Champion. The difference is subtle but the Chapter Champion gets to reroll all failed hits and wounds against a Character whereas a Compang Champion just gets the wounds rerolls.

That is often crucial especially if a model has a -1 to hit or you just want to maximise your damage (with the Blade of Triumph I presume).

 

 

 

For now I will proxy the Captain. 

 

I will use Cassius as I still think he's actually good even though for some bizarre reason he can't access Wise Orator.

 

And new Tiggy. Just love Psychic Fortress and -1 to hit. (in the future might sub in the Primaris Tech priest if I get more dreads running)

 

So for troops, they will be Intercessors for range damage, and I still like Infiltrators for push back.

 

Classic units:

5 Relic Terminators (I'll use what I have built) Basically Chainfist/SB or dual claws dudes.

 

5 Devs: MM, 4 Grav, 

In a drop Pod.

 

Chapter Champion (using new model)

 

Vanguard Vets x 5 (Shield/claw)

 

Relic Contemptor: potentially a pair of Twin Volkites. But I somehow lost one shoulderpad from my Ultramarine Contemptor kit... which sucks because I just cannot find a replacement! So I may have to buy the plastic one and sub in one arm for the lost one which  is one piece with a fist. Not sure what to do about this.

 

OR (instead of Relic Redemptor) A Leviathan Dread (which I have new in box) with the Gravflux Bombard arms (when they arrive).

 

The Primaris stuff I do like using a lot:

- Eradicators

- Maybe a Redemptor

- Victrix Honour Guard (Good action monkeys)

- Apothecary

- Troops.

 

That nearly put me at about 1970 points.

 

Any thoughts on something really bad or worth revisiting?

 

Also Relics: I always use the Seal of Oath, but in this list not so sure. For starters thanks to Idaho's advice, I will use Helm of Censure (Reroll 1's to wound/to hit + add 1 to hit/to wound rolls vs Chaos )

 

Should I include the Seal? Is it worth it? 

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

What about some Sternguard ?

 

Definitely take Seal !!!

Edited September 10, 2021 by Black Blow Fly

[Prot]

Well I had my game with this list and it was pretty much as a I’ve except for some filler since I don’t have the contemptor, I took a squad of assault Centurions with hurricanes and meltas. 
 

I should preface this by saying I played against a very strong SoB army that I helped build and test. It (coincidently) is very close to the list that John Lennon won the Dallas GT with. Except I think the big difference is both me and my friend like those tanks especially because of the capacity for indirect. In turn 1 sure enough that tank would take out my lone Redemptor with ease. (I had bottom of turn)
 

it was quite a beating against me. I won’t lie, it was so one sided I really felt like some of the classic models just did not pull their weight. Primaris may have faired a bit better … I think immediately how much I missed my Bladeguard for example and my aggressors. I also felt the character termie I took with hammer and Censure and shield was cool but just lacked a bit that Calgar does typically bring in the form of similar offence but more survival. 
 

brightside highlights include my Eradicators which I put in strategic reserves. They came out and took down one of those nasty tanks. Another highlight included the dev squad in pod. They took out the other tank and that’s a first. I never get both. Plus the pod and squad help set up an aggressive Engage on all fronts play that my opponent couldn’t reasonably stop. I would lose the devs quickly but the pod was perfectly placed  and he didn’t want to bother. 
 

Another highlight was Cassius. I don’t know how this guy doesn’t come with wise orator but otherwise he was solid. 
 

my best setup was probably when I set up a Hail Mary turn 2. I positioned Cassius in such a way that I would maximize the 2”extra charge aura. My Vanguard and Relic Termies came in in such a way that everyone got the charge bonus but I would perform a 3 way assault including the chapter champion that I thought might put in a strong position.  
 

the relic Termies made their charge, destroying a rhino full of Sacresants which are just gross. Another squad of sacred ants on foot were hurricaned and flamed to death by Cassius and my last Centurion. 
 

the other charge would be the freshly arrived Vanguard and Champion vs Celestine who was very aggressive in my zone last turn. 
 

Termies ended up hammered by meltas. I only had two left. I don’t know how but the last two Termies overwatched and killed 3 more Sacresants. I knew for sure I would die here but I did cast fight first on the Termies from Tigurius foreseeing this charge.  I got 4 wounds through, killing the last 4 sacresants based on my opponent rolling 4 ones for armour saves insane really. But I’ll take it 

 

the Vanguard and champion would combine to kill Celestine and her minions. It took every thing I had. But she would get back up from the dead robbing me of 3 more assasination points and preserving his 15fight to the last points. That sucked. 
 

bad stuff includes the my termie captain. I played a very strong assault move with my vanguard on the Paragon war suits. My captain would also charge avoiding overwatch, and I had him activate in such a way to tie up his flamer squad. 
 

now even though I had Seal of Oath targeting the Paragon suits, I could not kill the suits with those units combined. In fact I would lose 3 of the vanguard in return….yet I would still manage to “tri-point” the last paragon suit with 2 vanguard and my termie captain. My opponent was not happy about it… he wanted those ap2, s6, 2d flamers to smoke my vanguard and captain. 
 

I knew I was losing models too fast and not doing enough damage so I had to be very aggressive and I wanted to maintain my oath of moment scoring in late game or I had no chance. 
 

in doing this, I committed Cassius and the champion to kill Celestine even though she retreated. She was worth an 8 point swing and would give me a chance…. My gambit failed. Cassius is not that good in cc, and the champion took the better option of his non relic blade as Celestine reduces all damage anyway. But even with 7 attacks and Cassius I still couldn’t kill her. He would keep those 3 assassination points away from me while retaining 5 for While we stand. I will say I was surprised how poorly the champ did in that

particular match up and was a little surprised he didn’t have an invulnerable save. Cassius and Champion would die after her retreat. 
 

I did a lot of trickery and luck I finally killed the paragon war suit to take 5 while we stand points away from the sob. But Vaul would follow up and easily overkill the termie captain and last vanguard. That left my Apothecary open and he would fall off my last objective in that table half. 
 

In turn 4 I had a pair of Termies, and 5 assault Intercessors ( on an objective in my zone) and a drop pod left. In his turn he melted 5he Intercessors and in turn 5 I would have 2 relic Termies and a pod. Lol

 

so I did what I could…. He had lots left and I had this three models including the pod.  I would lose 79 to 82. My opponent couldn’t believe I scored that high, but he always accuses me of fantastic scoring even when I’m getting my arse handed to me. 
 

Honestly, every moment in this game was a grind. I never felt in control…. I was constantly forced into over leveraged positions to ‘chase’ the score.

 

most of the classic models were something I felt worked better with my Scars. But the devs in pod were a great surprise, but don’t do much more than melta Primaris squads. But the pod was decent.  I still never figured out how to give my devs tactical doctrine out of a pod.  I don’t see how this is possible. 
 

the relic Termies just didn’t have staying power it survive a list like this and the sacresants typically do a better job of sticking around for their points. And the Centurions were very disappointing. I forgot they lost core so even Tiggy can’t protect them. 
 

it was rough. I don’t know if I would try this type of list again. It seems beyond my ability. 

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

SoB are top tier and that was obviously a strong list. I’ve found for relic terminators to be really strong you need more than five and I load them up for bear… plasma blaster, heavy flamer, etc. Assault Centurions don’t seem like a great choice for Ultramarines to be honest.

[Prot]

Yea the SoB is incredibly strong. I do beat it with Scars, and I have beaten in with Ultra, but usually I default back to a hybrid, very aggressive list that I seem to do best with:

 

Calgar and friends:

Aggressors

2 Warsuits

2 Redemptors

Troops/infantry.

 

Sounds basic but I do well with this list because I've always believed our advantage at this stage isn't our rules, or chapter trait (which can be handy) but instead it is our character(s), relics, and strats.

 

Conversely when I play my Scars, they get a TON of mileage out of their Chapter tactic: advance + charge is great, plus the Assault Doc adding +1 damage when charging is big. It makes a lowly Intercessor a marine killer.

 

UM not so much. I love our 'redeploy strat'. Our Oath relic, and combining a mixed list with that in mind allows me to play this flexible/aggressive Ultra build.

 

I guess I have to go 10 Termies deep. That's a bit of a tall ask.... just so many points! 

 

This was a rare game where I got both of his tanks, so as described in my post game report, I will keep that combo running.

 

I just don't think I can get the mileage out of the Termie Captain to actually compensate for our short comings. I feel like our named characters are a decent advantage for us. I truly felt the lack of performance from the Termie Captain. He certainly had  the rule of cool, but really fizzled in CC against an army like this.

 

I agree, the Assault Centurions just didn't work here. I had them painted, wanted to try them out again, and they just really stunk. 

 

The Termies are a tough call. I just don't know if they're truly worth it. It's a lot of points. It has to get a lot of work done and that larger foot print makes me uneasy against opponents that block out well.

 

I know with my 'typical' UM list it's like putting on an old glove... it's something I'm comfortable with Dreads, etc.

 

Heck I've even had some good success (somehow) with my twin Gladiators, and Techpriest list! 

 

This experiment with the classics did definitely remind me how good the Devs can be in a pod. (The Vanguard definitely work better with my Scars though.)

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

“Sounds basic but I do well with this list because I've always believed our advantage at this stage isn't our rules, or chapter trait (which can be handy) but instead it is our character(s), relics, and strats.”

 

I agree to an extent but our CT is not bad. I’m intrigued by warsuits… what do they do for you ?

[Prot]

“Sounds basic but I do well with this list because I've always believed our advantage at this stage isn't our rules, or chapter trait (which can be handy) but instead it is our character(s), relics, and strats.”

 

I agree to an extent but our CT is not bad. I’m intrigued by warsuits… what do they do for you ?

 

Specifically I meant that (just my opinion) our CT is passable, but it is certainly nothing to hang your hat on like some of the other Marine chapters. So I rely on what I do think we have going for us which is those strats/characters/relics.

 

The Warsuits are great combined with our redeploy strat. Particularly if you deploy your infiltration units before your opponent does and they have a very aggressive, forward movement or infiltration army. This can push them back a lot.

 

In other cases after the deployment is over, if I'm completely unhappy with where the Suits are, I simply redeploy them in my zone, and usually the opponent has reacted to where I originally put them.

 

Again it's something we do that no one else can (I think) so I try to employ those kind of strategies. The Warsuits aren't core of course, nor are they amazing, but they can be scary, and can't be ignored. I know no one uses them anymore, but combined with our specific Strat, I love the  effect.

[Captain Idaho]

That's an interesting report. The opponent was a good player by the sound of it and took a powerful (some might say OP) SoB list (Vaul is so much better than Guilliman yet cheaper) and you still made a game of it.

 

I don't think taking 5 Vanguard and 5 Terminators shows them off as good as they could possibly perform, particularly the Terminators. Dropping down as a solid mass of 10 gives enough shots to hurt something badly or just contribute to killing vehicles, whilst 10 charging in is phenomenal against multiple targets if you can get it.

 

It's a lot of points as you said, which is a commitment. In your list I would have perhaps dropped the Assasult Centurions for more Terminators.

 

The alternative is taking 5+ with Thunder Hammer and Storm shields which are much more survivable than anything in the army.

 

I'm disappointed your Terminator Captain didn't perform. Against Vaul? Maybe not a surprise as she's ridiculous. Would even Calgar have lasted against her with just 2 extra wounds?

 

Against most other targets though I still rate him. I use him amongst those 10 Terminators though which makes him hard to get at whilst he swipes left and right with his Hammer. The force doesn't last all game but the hole they make is phenomenal.

 

You're a good player though and got decent mileage out of a list you didn't feel stood up to your scrutiny.

 

If you were to take it on again, what changes would you make?

[Prot]

First off this is the dude I meant to paint up for a hammer/shield termie years ago. A mod at the BnC did the conversion for me... I just never got to painting it.

Secondly, I have a bit of time so here are the biggest moments I caught on camera:

This is very close to the beginning of the game. It is bottom of Turn 1 and Celestine and friends have decided to be aggressive:

- Just for clarity: #1 is my proxy for Company Champion. #2 is my proxy for the Primaris Apothecary (I couldn't find mine and was in a rush... .found him later on that night. :) ) #3 is Cassius just sticking out.

- The red circle is dead center. I had the Infiltrators run there because of Oath. To the right of that circle is one of his two x 10 man squads of Sacresants with shields. They are absolutely brutal, but I've played against them a lot. I know how hard they are to kill.

- I pull all the tricks out, but because 1 Sacresant stands, I am not allowed to shoot at Celestine. The 2+/4++ on the Sacresants for so cheap is just nuts. Plus they hit decently too.

- I would get one turn of shooting with the Assault Centurions (yes I would remove these potatoes from the list) before they went *poof*.

- The positioning of everything I did above was for next turn: The red circle would prevent him from shooting my characters right off the hop. Cassius was as close as I could put him to the center while Buffing with his +2 to charge Aura. So in my turn 2, everything was still place (except Cents) and I manufactured that multi charge.

As per the 'report' this was in T2:

- Above: You can see the edge of the shrub here were Cassius would be.... this allowed a 7" rerollable charge that had my Termies hitting the Rhino with a second squad of 10 Sacresants. The chainfists surprised me and the squad took out the Rhino to the very wound (Fury of the First), and he would lose 3 models to the transport death.

- Above, off screen, is approximately where I put my Pod/Devs. They are there for Engage points. They also were never going to live, and I knew that, but they did wipe out one of his 2 tanks that hit like a truck. The Devs were wiped by a 5 man MultiMelta Retributor squad with reroll all hit/wounds. No chance for survival but I knew that. The Pod was placed as to be very awkward for him to range kill it. It lived the whole game.

- This is where I start to run out of models, very quickly, to overwhelming firepower and assault:

- I go through 2 rounds of combat, but Celestine (big red circle) pulls back and is healed to 3 wounds by the Hospitalier (whom has also been bringing back D3 Sacresants a turn (And they said the Apothecary was broken?))

- My Apothecary holds Seal of Oath, the Paragon Warsuits are the target. A full on charge by Vanguard and the Captain (blue) with hammer can't kill them. I lose 3 VVets. I measure it up carefully and then tri-point the Last suit so I can't be shot at. The Blue captain did assault the Suits as I said, but also 'activated' into a Proxy Squad of flamers (S6, AP2, Damage 2 flat flamers that can and did shoot at full shots 6 x 5=30 hits per round!!!)

- So with Celestine getting away, the termies almost dead... but some how as I mentioned in the report he failed 4 of his 2+ saves on my termie overwatch as I knew I would lose the squad. Crazy. I know the game is over here. Vaul is heading up, she reduces damage incoming, rerolls galore and she hits like a truck.

- In his turn, I make another cagey move. He retreats the proxy flamer squad from my captain, and can use a CP to shoot me, but he needed his last CP for something else.... so after his charge phase. the (grey) Apothecary Heroically Intervenes into the squad, stopping them from shooting next turn, and making the Dogmata have to run further to catch him. This was all I could do to extend the inevitable whoopin'.

- One small mistake, that I didn't realize at the time; The Dogmata actually hits far harder than I thought. I could have possibly killed her but underestimated her when I charged her and the Paragon suits with the Vanguard. She would have been worth 3 assassination points. She (with the bone coloured dice with a skull on it) would try to kill my Apothecary (in grey). Mo

That's just to clarify some of the moments in that game. Again, I ended at 79 to his 82 and I had only 2 Termies, and a pod on the table.

[Prot]

Thanks Idaho.

 

The temptation is to simply go back to what I know works for me.... I can't help but think this will definitely be a change out to Calgar at the least.

 

The extra CP, the regen, the CM aura, and half damage are why I say that. Yes his fists aren't what they should be, but I feel like his survivability is more important to the list. 

 

My Termie Captain, Emperor rest his soul, definitely had a shot. He went after the Paragon Warsuits in conjunction with the Vanguard Vets at the same time (by then the accompanying Eradicators were dead on the same flank).

 

 

That's an interesting report. The opponent was a good player by the sound of it and took a powerful (some might say OP) SoB list (Vaul is so much better than Guilliman yet cheaper) and you still made a game of it.

 

 

After playing against SoB so many times, I definitely think Vaul is far better than Guilliman for the points. 

 

 

 

I don't think taking 5 Vanguard and 5 Terminators shows them off as good as they could possibly perform, particularly the Terminators. Dropping down as a solid mass of 10 gives enough shots to hurt something badly or just contribute to killing vehicles, whilst 10 charging in is phenomenal against multiple targets if you can get it.

It's a lot of points as you said, which is a commitment. In your list I would have perhaps dropped the Assasult Centurions for more Terminators.

The alternative is taking 5+ with Thunder Hammer and Storm shields which are much more survivable than anything in the army.

I'm disappointed your Terminator Captain didn't perform. Against Vaul? Maybe not a surprise as she's ridiculous. Would even Calgar have lasted against her with just 2 extra wounds?

Against most other targets though I still rate him. I use him amongst those 10 Terminators though which makes him hard to get at whilst he swipes left and right with his Hammer. The force doesn't last all game but the hole they make is phenomenal.

 

I don't know. To me with today's damage, the Termies have dimishing returns. I look at the Melta Retribrutor squads with 2 'cherubs'.  That's a potential 14 (I think.. if not 12) MM shots, re rolling everything. At 12" a failed save is insta death to a Termie. 

 

Maybe hammer shields are the way? I don't know but the claws were actually decent. When the Sacresants came charging in I still had fight first from Tiggy. I THINK I used that correctly in going before him, or if I did that wrong, I probably actually got tabled.

 

10 Termies would have died just as fast at 5. 

 

The 5 Vanguard do fine in my Scars. I haven't painted them yet because I keep trying to make them work with my Ultra's, but I think the verdict is in.... with the pliable Assault Phase strat, the 2 Damage Claws with extra AP on the scars variant make 5 man squads quite valid. 

 

I did miss my Bladeguard a lot. They are really our -near- equivalent to the Sacresants. I literally had nothing that could stand to all the melta, and D2 weaponry. The Paragon suits are also very good. There's a mass of Heavy Bolters in this list that kind of goes unnoticed because of all the melta and those tanks.

 

I'm kind of stuck right now. I'll have to ponder it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The temptation is to simply go back to what I know works for me.... I can't help but think this will definitely be a change out to Calgar at the least.

 

The extra CP, the regen, the CM aura, and half damage are why I say that. Yes his fists aren't what they should be, but I feel like his survivability is more important to the list. 

 

My Termie Captain, Emperor rest his soul, definitely had a shot. He went after the Paragon Warsuits in conjunction with the Vanguard Vets at the same time (by then the accompanying Eradicators were dead on the same flank).

 

 

[Captain Idaho]

14 melta shots are going to kill 5 Bladeguard really, who ate generally slow. I guess the reason I like Terminators is they Drop in on the action and bolter something to death and kill something I'm melee, almost like an Alpha strike.

 

I'm not sure what the solution is to SoB? Maybe a decent number of infantry can make a go of it? Make those Melta less effective for their points?

 

I guess I just like the Captain because he's more survivable than a Jump Pack Captain and can get into the action mostly on my terms at least for the first charge. He comes in cheaper for that too.

 

But against Sisters with a 4+ Invulnerable save? He's going to struggle killing them quickly sure. Having 20 such foes is scary, so again I guess bolter fire would be better against them?

 

Ideally and this is with the caveat I will have played well to pull it off, a hypothetical would be dropping the Terminators down after the transports are smashed so they can shoot dead the Sacresants with 40 Bolters (using my list) and charge another unit and kill them?

 

But again, that's not going to be the option every game I guess.

 

What are the stats for those Warsuits? I can't even remember.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I have been saying Calgar is super underrated. I’ll give warsuits a try.

[NKirkham24]

Paragon Warsuits are T5 with 2+ save, and -1 Damage. They only have the shield of faith 6++ (which an be buffed by a prayer to a 5++ i believe).

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I meant Invictus warsuits in case you’re wondering.

[Prot]

14 melta shots are going to kill 5 Bladeguard really, who ate generally slow. I guess the reason I like Terminators is they Drop in on the action and bolter something to death and kill something I'm melee, almost like an Alpha strike.

 

I'm not sure what the solution is to SoB? Maybe a decent number of infantry can make a go of it? Make those Melta less effective for their points?

 

I guess I just like the Captain because he's more survivable than a Jump Pack Captain and can get into the action mostly on my terms at least for the first charge. He comes in cheaper for that too.

 

 

 

Well in my Scars list, and even my Ultra's lately *because it's been working* I play Bladeguard in a way that the scenario you describe is fairly unlikely:

 

3 x 3 Bladeguard in 3 Impulsors with Shields. Very hard to crack and I may spike 5+ and almost no chance of a first turn kill on one of those squads. They also hold characters.... so they have to be primaris characters.

 

I don't recommend this build for everyone but I've come to conclude that we don't have a super-duper angle right now in 9th, so I try to take our better attributes and try to command the center of the board.

 

This -does- work better with Scars, because as you note, Bladeguard can be slow, but WS are far more aggressive anyway.

 

WS typically: Deploy, Biker Chaplain gets off bonus to charges, and/or Plumesrunner- then get bladeguard and characters out within 3" , move + advance. Move biker into helpful position of the bladeguard = turn 1 charge. Not slow at all.

 

UM typically: Deploy, very aggressive (maybe with Invictor Warsuit), Redeploy if necessary. The 2 (I rarely go 3 on this) Impulsors simply move up to center. Since Calgar can't ride, he advances first. With Impulsors if my opponent has bottom of turn, I'll often stay in, if I have bottom of turn and it's reasonable, I can disembark (Impulsor special rule).

 

So that's the play with Bladeguard. Also getting a 4++ over the Relic Termies. Those blades aren't bad either. Sometimes this is a good opportunity to get the Victrix Bodyguard out of the wagon too, and start doing an action. 

 

I know that's a lot more than you asked, but I wanted to give you the basic scenario of how I start with a Primaris variant. Yes, it's a lot more points in total (I typically only run up to 2 of those Bladeguard/Impulsor pairs for UM). But with the Apothecary and Tiggy, it can be really hard to get rid of.

 

 

I have been saying Calgar is super underrated. I’ll give warsuits a try.

 

I agree. But to my point, regarding my experience with the Termie Captain, for Calgar I'm not really seeing him as a killer of today's hot characters... like Vaul, but he's probably going to survive longer, and be a little more helpful with:

2 extra CP

Recovering CP

Victrix Guard become non-Elite

Halving Damage is one of the big ones. (with 3 extra wounds)

Built in CM aura.

T5 inherent

Access to Transhuman, and Grav armour strats.

 

The Invictor Warsuits are really fun in a few different style of lists. Sometimes I only use one, but I really try to fit 2 in. The option to redeploy is huge.

 

They don't get the -1 damage, and you're still looking at 160 points, but the Ironhail Autocannon is a great add on vs. Marines and DE boats. You still get 13 wounds though, and flat 3D fists aren't anything to sneeze at.

 

It just creates instant pressure your opponent can't take a chance on not going first with. It's probably more a 'fun' unit than hyper competitive to be honest, but I've always liked them. 

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Yeah can’t wait to get a couple.

 

 

 

One thing about Calgar is when you start buffing him up plus with an apothecary he is unkillable unlike Robby - only weakness is d3 damage.

[Captain Idaho]

 

14 melta shots are going to kill 5 Bladeguard really, who ate generally slow. I guess the reason I like Terminators is they Drop in on the action and bolter something to death and kill something I'm melee, almost like an Alpha strike.

I'm not sure what the solution is to SoB? Maybe a decent number of infantry can make a go of it? Make those Melta less effective for their points?

I guess I just like the Captain because he's more survivable than a Jump Pack Captain and can get into the action mostly on my terms at least for the first charge. He comes in cheaper for that too.

 

Well in my Scars list, and even my Ultra's lately *because it's been working* I play Bladeguard in a way that the scenario you describe is fairly unlikely:

 

3 x 3 Bladeguard in 3 Impulsors with Shields. Very hard to crack and I may spike 5+ and almost no chance of a first turn kill on one of those squads. They also hold characters.... so they have to be primaris characters.

 

I don't recommend this build for everyone but I've come to conclude that we don't have a super-duper angle right now in 9th, so I try to take our better attributes and try to command the center of the board.

 

This -does- work better with Scars, because as you note, Bladeguard can be slow, but WS are far more aggressive anyway.

 

WS typically: Deploy, Biker Chaplain gets off bonus to charges, and/or Plumesrunner- then get bladeguard and characters out within 3" , move + advance. Move biker into helpful position of the bladeguard = turn 1 charge. Not slow at all.

 

UM typically: Deploy, very aggressive (maybe with Invictor Warsuit), Redeploy if necessary. The 2 (I rarely go 3 on this) Impulsors simply move up to center. Since Calgar can't ride, he advances first. With Impulsors if my opponent has bottom of turn, I'll often stay in, if I have bottom of turn and it's reasonable, I can disembark (Impulsor special rule).

 

So that's the play with Bladeguard. Also getting a 4++ over the Relic Termies. Those blades aren't bad either. Sometimes this is a good opportunity to get the Victrix Bodyguard out of the wagon too, and start doing an action.

 

I know that's a lot more than you asked, but I wanted to give you the basic scenario of how I start with a Primaris variant. Yes, it's a lot more points in total (I typically only run up to 2 of those Bladeguard/Impulsor pairs for UM). But with the Apothecary and Tiggy, it can be really hard to get rid of.

I don't contest the effectiveness of those combinations. Tried, tested and solid in the theoretical too.

 

My only contention, if I have one, is that that playstyle takes a lot of investment and in comparison to another playstyle (such as dropping Terminators and other units, plus say fast moving Vanguard or Contemptors etc) is if you don't want to go big with Terminators because the cost it kinda isn't a fair comparison.

 

Case in point - 3×3 Bladeguard in Impulsors is 645pts. Very effective in scoring objectives around the field and spreading out stops them being targeted down. But that's 645pts in 12 models on the other hand. You stated you only run 2 such units in Ultramarines armies which is cool as saves points.

 

It's obviously a matter of playstyle and you don't need to prove that to me brother as it's very effective and your record speaks for itself. I just think there is mileage to be had from a Terminator drop in Ultramarines.

 

Tactical Doctrine, a hard-core of character support, other units scooting round the board and taking objectives, I want to trial it more myself.

 

***

 

Good examples and information Prot. Enjoying reading it.

Edited September 14, 2021 by Captain Idaho

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Relic terminators are great. I rate them over hammenators for Smurfs due to their combi bolters. Say you take eight total - sergeant has a plasma blaster and grenade harness, one mook has a heavy flamer… that’s a lot of serious firepower on the drop and in tactical doctrine those combi bolters absolutely destroy one wound models like Retributors and even Sacresants. So in for a penny, in for a pound I always say. A squad of five isn’t going to do anywhere near the same amount of damage. All mine are equipped with Chainfists and with that number of attacks they will shred anything… now you’re really getting value out of strats such as Fury of the First. In my meta the top player who runs DA (heavy RW with 3x3 MMAB) started running a full squad after we played. Mine are always a super star unit every game - one game versus DG they got locked up with several enemy units and kept them tied up for a couple of turns which really swung the game in my favor even though they didn’t inflict that much damage overall.

[MegaVolt87]

Prot, I thought you had Sicaran variants for your UM? If not, I think you should consider it, pretty sure RG invented most of them I think so would definitely fit. I love my pair. 

[Prot]

Prot, I thought you had Sicaran variants for your UM? If not, I think you should consider it, pretty sure RG invented most of them I think so would definitely fit. I love my pair. 

 

I am not quite sure what you mean by this.... the old tanks? Actually I only own the one; battle tank. It's okay I think, 6 shots at S7, 3 damage flat is nice, but I believe the Redemptor is better. Core, -1 damage mitigation, overcharged Macroplasma - 9 -4, 3 damage flat and can partake in the middle of the table a bit better... also doesn't cost CP.

 

I don't mind the Sicaran but I still haven't been pushed to paint it at 180 points... It looks okay but better suited to my Gladiator tank list. It's a good shout out though. It would look super cool having my Techpriest in the middle of the 2 Gladiators and a Battle tank.

 

Just food for thought is the amount of terrain we've been playing with is even jacked up another notch to mimic the GW 'official' tournament set up. It is notably harder to use any larger vehicle now, and ruins really must have bases so vehicles can still shoot 'through' them, otherwise it's really awkward. 

 

Relic terminators are great. I rate them over hammenators for Smurfs due to their combi bolters. Say you take eight total - sergeant has a plasma blaster and grenade harness, one mook has a heavy flamer… that’s a lot of serious firepower on the drop and in tactical doctrine those combi bolters absolutely destroy one wound models like Retributors and even Sacresants. So in for a penny, in for a pound I always say. A squad of five isn’t going to do anywhere near the same amount of damage. All mine are equipped with Chainfists and with that number of attacks they will shred anything… now you’re really getting value out of strats such as Fury of the First. In my meta the top player who runs DA (heavy RW with 3x3 MMAB) started running a full squad after we played. Mine are always a super star unit every game - one game versus DG they got locked up with several enemy units and kept them tied up for a couple of turns which really swung the game in my favor even though they didn’t inflict that much damage overall.

 

This is interesting food for thought. As mentioned above we do play a lot of GW tournament style terrain. The 'deep strike' element is a big plus, but the Combi-bolters... that's a tough one though. Sisters in cover (pretty much anything that isn't a Sacresant) is getting a 3+ save. Sacresants in the open get a 3+ as well. I may be unlucky, but I haven't had that kind of mileage.

 

DeathGuard are a nightmare for me. They love the middle of the table as well, and having +1 to would would be massive against T5. Their Blightlords are a significant issue for my UM. 

 

It is tempting to try the build you're talking about: About 8 models. Unfortunately mine are all built (the 5 I own) with a split of Chainfists/dual claws. The Dual Claws are really good at tearing up Sisters though, but I do love the Combibolter/Chainfists.

 

I'm numbers crunching a list right now and I'd say I can get 7 Relic termies in (If I can find my remaining Tartaros Termie  set)

 

 

 

Well in my Scars list, and even my Ultra's lately *because it's been working* I play Bladeguard in a way that the scenario you describe is fairly unlikely:

 

3 x 3 Bladeguard in 3 Impulsors with Shields. Very hard to crack and I may spike 5+ and almost no chance of a first turn kill on one of those squads. They also hold characters.... so they have to be primaris characters.

 

/Snip

 

I know that's a lot more than you asked, but I wanted to give you the basic scenario of how I start with a Primaris variant. Yes, it's a lot more points in total (I typically only run up to 2 of those Bladeguard/Impulsor pairs for UM). But with the Apothecary and Tiggy, it can be really hard to get rid of.

I don't contest the effectiveness of those combinations. Tried, tested and solid in the theoretical too.

 

My only contention, if I have one, is that that playstyle takes a lot of investment and in comparison to another playstyle (such as dropping Terminators and other units, plus say fast moving Vanguard or Contemptors etc) is if you don't want to go big with Terminators because the cost it kinda isn't a fair comparison.

 

Case in point - 3×3 Bladeguard in Impulsors is 645pts. Very effective in scoring objectives around the field and spreading out stops them being targeted down. But that's 645pts in 12 models on the other hand. You stated you only run 2 such units in Ultramarines armies which is cool as saves points.

 

It's obviously a matter of playstyle and you don't need to prove that to me brother as it's very effective and your record speaks for itself. I just think there is mileage to be had from a Terminator drop in Ultramarines.

 

Tactical Doctrine, a hard-core of character support, other units scooting round the board and taking objectives, I want to trial it more myself.

 

***

 

Good examples and information Prot. Enjoying reading it.

 

 

I think the bolded/underlined statement is a big piece of it for sure. Taking my scenario in whole, or in pieces, I still think at the end of the day the strats around Primaris, and the fact a 3 man Bladeguard squad with shields/master crafted blades is a mere 105 pts.

 

The Bladeguard Vet Squad is probably one of the most economically pointed units we have access to. 

 

That said I may dip back into the Relic Termies at least just to be absolutely certain what I'm seeing isn't skewed.

 

(If I'm being 100% honest with everyone (including myself) I am a massive fan of Termies going back to my earliest days with the game when 3rd was just released. Right now I'm skewed because I play Thousand Sons as well, and their 'Relic Terminators' are absolutely fantastic. Take away all the Psychic shenanigans and you have exactly what I want UM Termies to be: AP-2 Bolters, Master Crafter S5 blades (2 damage), and ObSec. Relic Termies should really have this.)

 

A bit derailed but the point is I'm always looking for what we do best. 

[MegaVolt87]

Hm, since you have more terrain what about the whirlwind scorpius or the sicaran Arcus for some indirect fire? They don't really need to move, you could even save points on the Arcus by taking HB spontoons, or no spontoons at all.

[Prot]

The Scorpius isn't a bad call at all. I really am looking for some good indirect as I think it brings a lot to the game now. It's very powerful to have it in your arsenal on these modern tables.

 

What I am finding though is those SoB tanks are so incredibly powerful and they have the ability to fire indirect with a strat. Most of the times, with all those shots, I lose a vehicle outright a turn from them. It's pretty gross.

 

For now I prefer using 'heavy' choices that cannot be targeted until they kill something. IE: Eradicators in reserves, Devs in a pod.

 

Note: The "Dev's in Pod" are definitely a result of my testing classic stuff. But they gotta stay, and will probably make it into my White Scars as well.

 

So here is what the list looks like now. Less 'classics' but perhaps stronger overall? 

 

This is the entire list:

 

++ Battalion Detachment 0CP (Imperium - Adeptus Astartes - Ultramarines) [108 PL, 9CP, 1,998pts] ++

 

+ Configuration +

 

**Chapter Selector**: Ultramarines

 

Battle Size [12CP]: 3. Strike Force (101-200 Total PL / 1001-2000 Points) 

 

Detachment Command Cost

 

+ Stratagems +

 

Honoured by Macragge [-1CP]

 

Honoured Sergeant [-1CP]

 

Relics of the Chapter [-1CP]: Number of Extra Relics

 

+ No Force Org Slot +

 

Victrix Honour Guard [3 PL, 70pts]: Victrix Honour Guard, Victrix Honour Guard

 

+ HQ +

 

Chief Librarian Tigurius [7 PL, 135pts]

 

Marneus Calgar [11 PL, 210pts]

 

Primaris Chaplain [6 PL, 110pts]: 1. Litany of Faith (Aura), 2. Catechism of Fire, Chapter Command:  Master of Sanctity, Litany of Hate, Warlord, Wise Orator

 

+ Troops +

 

Assault Intercessor Squad [5 PL, 95pts]

. 4x Assault Intercessor: 4x Astartes Chainsword, 4x Frag & Krak grenades, 4x Heavy Bolt Pistol

. Assault Intercessor Sgt: Astartes Chainsword, Heavy Bolt Pistol

 

Heavy Intercessor Squad [7 PL, 140pts]: Hellstorm bolt rifle

. 4x Heavy Intercessor: 4x Bolt pistol, 4x Frag & Krak grenades

. Heavy Intercessor Sergeant

 

Intercessor Squad [5 PL, 100pts]: Bolt rifle

. 4x Intercessor: 4x Bolt pistol, 4x Frag & Krak grenades

. Intercessor Sergeant

 

+ Elites +

 

Aggressor Squad [12 PL, 200pts]: 2x Flamestorm Gauntlets, 4x Aggressor, Aggressor Sergeant

 

Primaris Ancient [5 PL, 100pts]: Chapter Command: Chapter Ancient, Standard of Macragge Inviolate

 

Primaris Apothecary [5 PL, 115pts]: Chapter Command:  Chief Apothecary, Seal of Oath, Selfless Healer, Warlord

 

Relic Terminator Squad [18 PL, 273pts]

. Relic Terminator: Chainfist, Combi-bolter

. Relic Terminator: Chainfist, Combi-bolter

. Relic Terminator: Chainfist, Combi-bolter

. Relic Terminator: Lightning Claw (Pair)

. Relic Terminator: Chainfist, Combi-bolter

. Relic Terminator: Chainfist, Combi-bolter

. Relic Terminator Sergeant: Chainfist, Plasma blaster

 

+ Fast Attack +

 

Suppressor Squad [5 PL, 100pts]

. 2x Suppressor: 2x Accelerator autocannon, 2x Bolt pistol, 2x Frag & Krak grenades

. Suppressor Sergeant

 

+ Heavy Support +

 

Devastator Squad [8 PL, 145pts]: Armorium Cherub

. Devastator Marine Sergeant: Bolt pistol, Boltgun

. Devastator Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Grav-cannon

. Devastator Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Grav-cannon

. Devastator Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Grav-cannon

. Devastator Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Multi-melta

 

Eradicator Squad [7 PL, 135pts]: Melta rifle

. 2x Eradicator: 2x Bolt pistol

. Eradicator Sgt

 

+ Dedicated Transport +

 

Drop Pod [4 PL, 70pts]: Storm bolter

 

++ Total: [108 PL, 9CP, 1,998pts] ++

 

Created with BattleScribe

 

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

 

Note: The Ancient is more of a 'fun' touch. I wanted to see how much more damage in CC I could do with an actual Ultra relic: Macragge Inviolate banner.

 

If this is a bad idea, let me know.

 

I did remove the 5 Vanguard as well. They are just a lot more efficient as White Scars I think (unless I'm missing something.)

 

What would you change? Or does this sit in a good area? (Personally not having Bladeguard is tough for me, but the Relic Termies are in their spot.)

 

 

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

You could prolly work heavy melta rifles into the mix… well worth it !

[Prot]

You could prolly work heavy melta rifles into the mix… well worth it !

 

You know I typically used to do this until they nerfed our Tactical Doctrine. Since I always put them in reserves, I'd come onto the table hitting on 4's with that one upgraded gun which really sucks.

[Captain Idaho]

Hey Prot, just wondering if you'd consider using Master-crafted on the Relic Sergeant's Plasma Blaster since you can now be "protected" by the Combat Revival of an Apothecary?

 

2 shots at Damage 3 each are pretty nice to have.

 

Also, regarding when you used a Chapter Champion, which kind did you take?