Grey Knight Allies

[L30n1d4s]

I have been looking at the possibility of taking some allies for my GK force for a bit now and weighing the different Pros/Cons of this option. I thought I’d share my thoughts with the other Brother-Captains in the forum here and see what you all think, as well as see if there are some creative Ally options that I may have missed.

 

 

 

Here is what I have been looking at so far:

 

 

 

CONS --

 

 

1 – The most obvious up front, if I take Allies then I lose access to Tides and, most relevantly, the ability to get MWs from my NFWs in combat with Tide of Convergence (though other things, like losing access to free Cover from Tide of Shadows, is also something to consider).

 

 

2 – The second thing that I lose when taking allies is that, obviously, there are now less points to spend on the very effective (especially in melee), point-for-point units that GKs have access to. For example, if I take SM allies and use Intercessor Troops, I am paying 20 points a model. If I just stuck with GKs, then for only 2 points more per model, I get a Strike Squad GK who has equal durability (including access to Transhuman Physiology Strat) and mobility (plus access to free Deep Strike), is also a Troops option, a Storm Bolter instead of a Bolt Rifle, access to Smite and Hammerhand, and WAY better melee (3A all the time, not just on the charge, and either S5 AP-3 Dmg2 with a Sword or S6 AP-2 Dmg2 with a Halberd).

 

 

3 – Finally, if I take allies, then I have to take an additional detachment, so I am losing out on CPs, which in my experience GKs are already thirsty for without starting with even less to begin with.

 

 

PROS

 

 

Now, in terms of advantages, generically most of the options I am looking at provide access to some cheaper, more “tradeable” units for holding objectives, screening, etc. which the GKs lack if they are purely using their own Codex. Additionally, certain allies offer options that GKs don’t have access to, such as Artillery units, unique Psychic powers, unique Strats, etc.

 

 

 

Here are some of the allies I am looking to add in with my GK army (if you haven’t figured it out, I am an Imperium player, with multiple different Imperial armies ;) ):

 

 

1 – Astra Militarum – I am looking at an allied Imperial Guard Patrol consisting of 2 Tank Commanders (for T8 14W 3+ save targets to distract enemy combat power from my GKs) and 2 cheap Storm Trooper squads (for Deep Striking and grabbing objectives/doing actions). This “mini-Armoured Company” would give my GKs a solid fire base, some tough units that will make enemy target priority harder (i.e. should I shoot the T8 Tank Commanders who are pounding me with S10 AP-3 DmgD6 Demolisher cannons, or should I shoot at the GMNDK that are up in my face with massed S10 AP-3 DmgD6 attacks?), and also give a few “disposable” units for grabbing objectives away from the main fight.

 

 

2 – Black Templars – For this option, I am looking at a small Vanguard detachment consisting of a Chaplain, three x 3-man Company Veteran squads (all with Storm Shields and Lightning Claws), and a Drop Pod. The idea is that the entire Black Templar detachment can fit inside the Drop Pod and come in as early as Turn 1 (or later turns, if necessary). The Chaplain can then use the Strat to auto-cast the Litany for +2” to the charges, giving him and all three Company Veteran squads a 7” charge out of Deep Strike, which is also re-rollable thanks to the BT Chapter Tactic (also, I can use the GK Vision to deny one enemy unit Overwatch for that turn as well). This gives me a VERY high chance of at least getting one squad into melee on turn 1, where they can use their 2W and 2+/4++ to survive and then use the Black Templar unique Strat to, on a roll of a 2+, lock that enemy unit in combat/prevent them from being able to fall back. What does this do for a GK player? Well, in my observations of the codex so far, one of the vulnerabilities is the difficulty in getting into combat and tying up enemy shooting units so that the rest of the GK units can get across the battlefield and get into combat later in the game. This Black Templar detachment provides a “tool kit” to help tie up enemy units and buy that time for the rest of the GK force to get “stuck in.”

 

 

3 – Ultramarines – The third option I am considering is an Ultramarine Vanguard detachment with Chronus (riding the Whirlwind), three Invictor Warsuits (with Autocannons), and a Whirlwind. The idea here is the Invictors start up in the enemy’s face, ready to charge in and tie them up if I get first turn, or redeploy (with the Ultramarine unique Strat) and provide general fire support/Objective holding capability if my opponent has first turn. Meanwhile, Chronus sits back in his Whirlwind, holding objectives out of LOS and providing fire support to knock small enemy squads off Objectives that are otherwise difficult to reach and, when required, using the Suppression Fire Strat to prevent Overwatch/make enemy units fight last when my GKs charge them.

Edited September 11, 2021 by L30n1d4s

[Skywrath]

In three words: Not worth it.

[casb1965]

The only allies I'll take are either an assassin or an Inquisitor, anything else is too costly.

 

Conversely I would not be averse to a small Grey Knight unit as an ally for my Astra Militarum / Inquisition force.

[Dosjetka]

In three words: Not worth it.

Would you mind developing this a little more, please?

[casb1965]

 

In three words: Not worth it.

Would you mind developing this a little more, please?

You need to consider whether the allies bring you something that your GKs can't point for point and whether that is worth the loss of Tides and CP.

[Skywrath]

 

 

In three words: Not worth it.

Would you mind developing this a little more, please?

You need to consider whether the allies bring you something that your GKs can't point for point and whether that is worth the loss of Tides and CP.

 

 

Pretty much that. In this edition we are more dependent on tides than in 8th, mainly due to celerity and convergence, and losing them will hurt. A lot of our strats/litanies/WL synergise too well with those tides. Even taking an inquisitor I believe would break them. Theoretically, if GK weren't the focus on the list, and they were the anvil, to another faction's hammer, then perhaps. 

[WAR]

 

 

 

 

In three words: Not worth it.

Would you mind developing this a little more, please?

You need to consider whether the allies bring you something that your GKs can't point for point and whether that is worth the loss of Tides and CP.

Pretty much that. In this edition we are more dependent on tides than in 8th, mainly due to celerity and convergence, and losing them will hurt. A lot of our strats/litanies/WL synergise too well with those tides. Even taking an inquisitor I believe would break them. Theoretically, if GK weren't the focus on the list, and they were the anvil, to another faction's hammer, then perhaps.

I agree with the exception that the inquisitor breaks them. The inquisitor won’t gain the tide but does not cost us our tides for taking one or an Assassain.

[L30n1d4s]

Thanks for all the feedback here... yes, good points on the disadvantages, I definitely see the drawbacks to taking allies ;) With regard to the Inquisitor, war009 is correct, they don't make you lose Tides (or any kind of army exclusive bonus for Imperial allies).

 

 

One other allied detachment for Grey Knights I am playing with is a Dark Angel Patrol as follows:

 

 

-Azrael

-Primaris Apothecary

-5 Intercessors (Stalker Bolt Rifles)

-10 Hellblasters (Heavy Plasma Incinerators)

 

 

The idea is to leverage their durability (wound on 4+ from Transhuman, 4++ from Azrael, 6+++ FNP and heal/revive from Apothecary) and their ranged output (2+ to hit if they stand still, re-rolling 1s to hit from Azrael, S9 AP-4 Dmg4 on the Heavy Plasma Incinerators if you use "Weapons of the Dark Age"... so basically better AP, more reliable damage Lascannons) to give my GKs a strong ranged "fire base" that is also difficult to remove (and forces my opponent to come to me, where all the Sons of Titan melee excels).

[Icosiel]

Controversial opinion, but I think Tides are much less useful now than they used to be. They're still really good, and I'd rather have them than not, but honestly losing Tides to ally in something supportive or flavorful is not that big of a sacrifice anymore. I used to swear by Tide of Shadows, but with the change it got in the 9th Codex I can easily see myself leaving it behind if it seems more advantageous to bring in a detachment of Guardsmen or whatever. I think that's a boon, really. That flexibility.

[The Woodsman]

I agree with Icosiel in principle. Casb has a valid point as well. Tides can definitely be really good with certain combinations of rules, powers and strats, but they aren't what make up the best strength of the faction, in my opinion. Certain units don't benefit from them as much as others either. Rapier Interceptors (or anything Infantry really), with the extra attack from the Stratagem and exploding 6s from the power really benefit from Convergence, especially if Words of Power is up. Shadows can be nice on Infantry, but you'd be hard pressed to get a lot out of it on say Dreaknights. Same goes for Celerity... its nice to have, but not really a game-changer unless you've got the re-roll charges power from the Blades of Victory (if memory serves). We can go on. So losing them is not a massive blow, but to build on what casb was saying its only worth losing them if you're consciously bringing something specific to the table. I myself feel Grey Knights lack in cheap bodies/units that are redundant enough for actions and backfield camping. I want to be Deep Striking my Strikes and Terminators, and moving into threat range with my Interceptors and Dreadknights. Sure, you can bring Servitors in, but pts/model they aren't that cheap and they're quite lackuster. Grey Knights also still struggle with long-ranged firepower, especially of the anti-tank variety. Sure, our melee output and mortal wound potential can fill that gap, but without turning to Dreadnoughts, Razorbacks or Land Raiders there isn't really a dependable source of high-Strength, high-Damage ranged threats. 

 

I've been toying with a GK & Astra Militarum soup (Ad Mech would probably be better but those are the two armies I own). Basically it comes down to this:

AM Batallion: Wilderness Survivors and Gunnery Exeprts

 

2x Tank Commander with Demo Cannon, 3x Heavy Bolters

Company Commander, Kurov's 

 

5x Infantry Sqaud, bare bones

 

3x Scout Sentinel, multi-laser

 

Wyvern

 

GK Patrol: Swordbearers

 

GMDK, psilencer, psycannon, sword, teleporter, WL: Anvil, Exemplar: FttF, Servant, Sigil, Empyric, Gate

 

10 Terminators, halberds, 1 stave

 

Dreadknight, psilencer, psycannon, sword

Dreadknight, incinerator, psycannon, sword

 

For a total of 8CP to start, Kurov's can get some back. The Guard detachment provides Sentinels for Engage early on, the Infantry Squads for Banners and objective holding and the Tanks for solid ranged firepower. The Wyvern is a little extra, but does provide a backfield holder that can sit out of LoS and fire away at my opponent's cheap, flimsy objective holders or annoying stuff like Nurglings and Scarabs. Its also a nice bonus against hordes, 24 S4 shots that re-roll to wound is not bad against cheap hordes (Orks are an issue but the re-roll helps). The GK detachment brings those super-solid DKs and GMDK who can Deep Strike in and eliminate enemy threats. The Terminators provide a strong anvil unit that should wreck anything it fights in combat, and is also a tough ObSec unit that can drop where needed. The way the points pan out the entire GK contingent can be Teleported, which can be back-breaking against the right opponents. This is all theory but in my opinion a scenario in which the allies really bring something to the table for a really potent mix. I've yet to try it out though. 

[L30n1d4s]

Agree with both Icosiel and The Woodsman, Tides are great, but not essential for GKs, hence my consideration of taking an ally detachment.

 

@The Woodsman, I quite like your list, especially the dual LR Demolishers and the Scout Sentinels for getting into Objectives quickly and cheaply.

 

I will have to explore this more, but I think IG might be the best allied "counterpart" to a Primary GK list.

[Corvus Fortis]

I think, It all comes to how much tide of convergence amplifies our damage. MWs are essential on stuff like death guard, which halves our damage in half or necrons, when you really want overkill. Even allies, which can do stuff that we lack, doesn't seem to be worth it to give up on this additional bit of damage. It doesn't matter if you have servitors or guardsmen on point - anything in this game can shred them to pieces as soon as they are out of los-block. And if they are invisible, it doesn't matter how much models there are in the squad. You need only one to hold objective and only one to execute actions. And servitor unit cost 30 compared to guard 50, so I cannot see any savings here.

 

Besides, we spend prescious CP on allied detachment. Our strats are so good, I consider going Prescient instead of Rapiers just for WT.

 

The only thing which looks nice to me is triple whirlwind/basilisk for out-of-los shooting. But it is still hard to assess it without point comparisons. I usually barely can fit in all the stuff I want for us. I wouldn't bother with Leman Russes in the world where dark lances, enthropic and cognis lascannons exist. 

 

I agree, that in general, tides are not as important for us, as they used to be, but at the same time I still not convicned we should bother with allies. If you want to have fun with them and still be effective - yes, you can and that's great. But if you want to get 100% effectiveness out of your list - why not to take more strike squads/ndks?

[The Woodsman]

I wholeheartedly agree that Grey Knights are fine on their own, there are so many powerful combos in the book and you can (and should lol) definitely make the most of them. That being said, when it comes to "creative" list building for tournaments its good to think outside the box. The Rapier Interceptor "spams" going around right now (4th place at The Summer Waaaagh! and Hammer of Wrath tournaments, listed on 40kstats.com, and 3rd place at the Kent Wargames GT 2 - though this is a savage list which combines a Rapiers batallion chock full of Interceptors and a GMDK plus a Swordbearers Spearhead which is 3 DKs with another GMDK) are definitely potent. But someone at some point is going to find a counter to them, thats just how the meta works. Especially since Grey Knights are basically a repetition (right now at least) of T4, 2W MEQs and T6, 4++ walkers, so there's definitely a solution out there - I still think we struggle against Ad Mech, on paper anyways. 

 

What I'm trying to get at is that while there is some really good stuff in the book, I think there is also room to explore using specific elements of it in conjunction with other Imperial books (notably AdMech and IG, maybe even Sisters for a super Ordos Militant smash-fest) for some unique challenges and gaming experiences. I've always been iffy on soup, but I also played GKs back in the Daemonhunter days so I do like the idea of GK allying with other Imperial elements. 

[L30n1d4s]

So, I have gone "all in" on an allied Imperial Guard detachment at this point.

 

In addition to my main GK Battalion (GMNDK, Librarian, Draigo, 3 x 5 Strikes, 10 Interceptors, NDK) I have an allied Patrol as follows:

 

 

AM Patrol (Doctrines are re-roll dice for number of shots and +6" to Heavy Weapons range)

 

HQ

-2 x Tank Commander (Demolisher variant)

 

TR

-1 x Storm Trooper squad

 

HS

-1 x Manticore (with Full Payload from Strat --> 3 Dmg for every attack)

-1 x Wyvern

 

 

So, the idea is that the Demolisher Command Tanks give me very strong S10 AP-3 DmgD6 shooting and some T8 platforms to "distract" AT shooting away from my NDKs. Additionally, the Manticore gives me indirect fire with S10 AP-2 Dmg3, forcing my opponent out of hiding to come to me (i.e. to where my GKs can get into melee). The Wyvern gives even more indirect fire, but uniquely tailored to take on masses of light infantry (i.e. against squads with 11+ models, it gets 24 x S4 shots, all with full re-rolls to wound). Finally, the Storm Troopers give me a cheap objective holder/action monkey that can be Deep Struck anywhere on the board, freeing. my Grey Knights to focus more on killing instead of babysitting objectives.

 

 

Will see how all this pans out, but even with the loss of Tides and CP, I think this is the kind of force that will put most enemy armies into a bit of a dilemma... do they try and focus down the NDKs, leaving the 30" range Demolishers and artillery free to pound them, or dow they try and take out the AM fire support and leave the GKs free to get up-field and into melee with them.

[Archadeus]

Let us know how it goes. I think tides are 100% essential and would never leave home without them. 30 inch psy weapons and mortals on 6s are just way too good. Not to mention shadows going 2nd. Imo there's nothing we can't deal with without just adding more dreadknights. I think it would be a great fluffy list though, really cool for a campaign. Edited October 3, 2021 by Archadeus

[angrom]

Sadly, not only are we loosing our tides but our secondary as well.

I went with the same idea at first but at that point you may as well add some custo or other SM chapter with your guards and that would work out better.

Edited October 3, 2021 by angrom

[scribbles]

Why do you lose tides and cp if you take allies? Don’t grey knight have the imperium keyword?

 

I don’t really know the allies rules as I just started playing again. So more asking for my own knowledge.

[L30n1d4s]

Tides are the bonus GKs get for running as a mono-faction army and the CP cost comes from having to take a second detachment (you can't use Imperium as a detachment key word anymore, so GKs have to have their own Det and AM a separate Det). Edited October 4, 2021 by L30n1d4s

[stormknight101]

Tides are the bonus GKs get for running as a mono-faction army and the CP cost comes from having to take a second detachment (you can't use Imperium as a detachment key word anymore, so GKs have to have their own Det and AM a separate Det).

what are tides? and what page can I read about it?

 

Edit: I must have a 8th edition codex because the front cover is different! That's 2 codex's I have with similar front cover. Argh so frustrating!

Edited December 4, 2021 by stormknight101

[Brother Lunkhead]

 

what are tides? and what page can I read about it?

 

Edit: I must have a 8th edition codex because the front cover is different! That's 2 codex's I have with similar front cover. Argh so frustrating!

 

I think you might have the 8th Ed. codex as the 8th and 9th Ed. codices have very different covers...... in my opinion 

 

Anywho... in 9th Ed. on page 81 (standard edition) under "MASTERS OF THE WARP" there are five tides listed, and they are:

1. Tide of Convergence
2. Tide of Celerity
3. Tide of Shadows
4. Tide of Escalation
5. Tide of Banishment

As has been pointed out your army must be purely a Grey Knights army in order to use them, so you need to take a close look at who you are fighting, the makeup of your GK force and your overall strategy to determine just how crucial any of these tides of the warp are in achieving victory.

 

Something else to consider is, don't be afraid to experiment. Try using allies just to see who it works in more casual games. If you don't have any of the allied forces that you are looking to use and you don't want to make an investment until you are sure what allied force you specifically want, use what you have in a "counts as" scenario..... and most importantly, don't be afraid to lose. You'll learn a lot.

 

    "Use failure to your advantage." - Admiral William H. McRaven

[techsoldaten]

While I'd like to build a Daemonhunters force complete with Inquistorial Guard...

 

The loss of Tides is too great. 

[Brother Lunkhead]

An Inquisitorial Guard would fit into a narrative game nicely and with some agreed upon adjustments to the rules, it might balance out well. Besides, a small Inquisitorial Guard force would look cool

[casb1965]

An Inquisitorial Guard would fit into a narrative game nicely and with some agreed upon adjustments to the rules, it might balance out well. Besides, a small Inquisitorial Guard force would look cool

Definitely, I have one and used to use it in 8th ed alongside my GK, now it just sits gathering dust.

[stormknight101]

20x Skull - Tiny Convex Insignias (3mm) – Pop Goes the Monkey

20x Demon Hunters - Tiny Convex Insignias (3mm) – Pop Goes the Monkey

 

I've got some of these on my inquisitorial guard. I'm going for Meltaguns and Plasmaguns and maybe some transports to get them in there maybe from acolytes with Jokaeros for rerolls.

[Brother Lunkhead]

 

An Inquisitorial Guard would fit into a narrative game nicely and with some agreed upon adjustments to the rules, it might balance out well. Besides, a small Inquisitorial Guard force would look cool

Definitely, I have one and used to use it in 8th ed alongside my GK, now it just sits gathering dust.