Battle Tank vs Demolisher and their sponsors

[Redbaron997]

In a list with several Tanks do you find demolishers worthwhile over Battle cannons. Of course they hit harder but your losing at least one round of double shooting in the first turn for it and possibly more while with Battle cannons your for sure shooting something.

 

Also assuming your taking sponsors for Battle Cannon or demolishers do you prefer straight triple HB or do you prefer to mix in some flamer too? I was toying with the idea of triple heavly flamer demolishers since thier gonna be close in anyways and it'll give them some good charge deterrent. What do yall think?

[Lord Raven 19]

I have been known to run a TC and a russ squadron, all with BC and HBs, maybe lascannons on the hull, but I play casually, not competitively, so I don't have to deal with DE or Admech cheese. I feel like it might perform worse then. I have had the idea that Objective Secured russes (in a spearhead to achieve this) could help with our backline objective holding, but haven't really put it to the test yet. If I had the models, I'd love to try an armoured list using Objective secured russes as much as possible, with tech priests and psykers (maybe in tauroxes or chimeras) for support. I could see a list like that wanting some all flamer demolishers for holding the midfield and playing aggressively, with longer ranged battle tanks playing the defensive on the home objectives but still contributing.

[Diagramdude]

After several tournaments I now swear by multimelta sponsons on tank commanders. They are 20pts more than HB sponsons, but those 4 melta shots are so deadly against vehicles and elite infantry. And they stand a good chance vaporizing a small squad or vehicle that tries to tie up your tank in melee, allowing your turret to fire if the tank frees itself. With spotter details, the melta half range bonus is a respectable 15”. If you’re already paying for sponsons, 245 for melta is worth it IMO compared to 225 for heavy bolters.

 

It’s also worth noting that plasma cannon sponsons benefit from Hail of Fire, guaranteeing 18 plasma shots against vehicles from an executioner with plasma sponsons.

 

Demolisher is always the way to go over battle cannon. With the smaller board and spotter details the demolisher has little trouble finding range on the target. If you do want a longer range, I’d take executioner over battle cannon. AP3 and flat 2 is almost always better than AP2 and d3 damage. And 36-42” range is basically the whole board, since now it’s only 44x60”.

[tychobi]

I rate battlecannons very high for tank commanders in a "sniper" role. Lascannon and hunter killer no sponsons is my favorite. Distance is excellent armor. A little harder to utilize on min sized boards (still mystified why folks cut 6/4 mats. Its minimum not even reccomended) but still effective

[duz_]

Diagram dude makes some good points :tu:

[domsto]

Demolisher is by far the best Maingun you can give your Leman Russ. As Diagramdude already said. Smaller Tables+Range Buffs makes it so you can shoot even Turn 1

In my experience Ranges over 36" are a waste of points.

 

Regarding the Sponsons. It is a double edged Sword. Yes with say Plasma or Meltar Sponson the Damage output is tremendous, but (and that is a big BUT) only if you have a chance to actually shoot. With the lackluster Defensive Stats of the Leman Russ and the over the top deadly Weapons, more often than not your expensive Tank will get up in Flames before he could do anything.

I for my Part take no Sponsons what so ever, better to spread your Points around instead of massing them all on one fragil Leman Russ chassis.

[Tokugawa]

Many clues hinted that the battlecannon would become straight dmg3 in 9th codex, and demolisher cannon would still be dmg d6 in 9th codex. Which means current demolisher is at normal quality, and dmg d3 battlecannon is much worse than normal quality.

[OldWherewolf]

Put the HK missile on your Full-Payload manticore.  Automatic 6 damage 

 

I think going to 3D on a BC and a D6 on a demo means nobody will every take the demo cannon.  I can see a flat 2/4, or 1+d3/ 3+d3, which makes a lot more sense to me.  I'd love to see a flat 2/4/6 (DB/Demo/Vanquisher) so we're at least presented with a choice.

 

What I was thinking was something along these lines:

• Punisher: Heavy 20, S5  AP-1  D1
• BC: Heavy 2d6 S8, AP-2, d3+1
• Demo: Heavy 1d6 S10, AP-3,  d3+3
• Vanquisher:  Heavy 2, S10, AP-5, d3+6, 

 

We can always fire twice against the same target, "grinding advance" would enable to switching targets for the 2nd shot.

 

Now they all have about the same overall output, but we can mix&match depending on the meta and new codexes.   

 

I think the Vanquisher cannon needs some kind of special rule, like "Titan Hunter" (pick one, a shadowsword would get both):

• Reduces invulnerable saves by 1 against non-titanic units
• Doesn't allow FNP & Ignores Damage reduction against non-titanic units

 

Going with the tank platoons idea, then you would take a TC with Vanquisher, then 2 LRs with either Punishers or BCs.  The TC pops the transports, and the LRs chew up the gooey insides.

[The Pounder]

The Macharius Vanquisher has a rule where you get +1 to hit tanks and monsters!

 

Also it has a flat damage of 9.

 

Maybe it’s a sign of things to come.

[sairence]

I imagine our tanks will look very different in a new Codex. Who knows if we'll even keep double shooting.

 

Battlecannons will probably go to a flat damage but what value is up in the air. If it's 2 damage but the Exterminator will need something else to set it apart, hopefully way more shots. But who knows.

 

Right now the Battlecannon suffers from the fact that D3 dmg on a main gun is just kinda bad, considering the variance and amount of -1D. You need a 5 or 6 to kill a Plaguemarine after rolling for shots, hitting, wounding and the save, that's just not good enough. The Demolisher works because it sidesteps the issue huge variance on D6 dmg by also potentially having lots of shots. It's the only way that kind of weapon can work on the current game, having enough tries so that your variance evens out over one round of shooting instead of over the whole game.

 

It's why Demolishers are good and Lascannons are bad, despite the latter being dirt cheap. Too often you only get a few tries, so damage must happen.

Edited September 15, 2021 by sairence

[jarms48]

Right now, it’s demolishers or bust. Not worth taking anything else.

 

Sponsons aren’t worth it, unless you need point fillers.

[BloodyB]

Gotta go with the group here, Demo is the best option. Plasma isn't bad, but the overwhelming amount of -1d units makes them a lot less attractive. The punisher is actually pretty useful in anti horde work, but that's kind of obvious.

 

Honestly, heavy bolters are the best choice for basic Russ tanks, they're not fantastic, but alright for the cost. Multimeltas are good on TCs, but kind of pricey. A demo TC with meltas and lascannon can shatter most non Titanic threats in one turn. It probably doesn't apply to you, but Tallarn regiment doctrine makes heavy flamers pretty useful, if rather niche. They're let down too much by dice roll shenanigans, but still as useful as ever at stopping cheeky tie-up charges by that one remaining termagant, which is just the worst.

[Closet Skeleton]

that one remaining termagant, which is just the worst.

That's what smite is for.