Lambdan Lion Storm Troopers --> Counter the Meta (?)

[L30n1d4s]

I was thinking about this recently and I started wondering if Lambdan Lions, especially with their AP-3 Hotshot weapons, are an efficient counter to the current dominant factions in the meta (i.e. AdMech, Sisters, Drukhari, certain MEQ builds)?

 

For example, with all their defensive buffs, 20 man blobs of Lucius Skitarii can ignore AP-1/-2, only be wounded on a 4+, and get up to a 3+/6++ versus Shooting attacks. Well, Lambdan Lion Hotshot Lasguns only wound Skitarii on 4+s anyway, are AP-3 (so avoiding the defense against AP-1/-2), and bring even 3+ save Vanguard/Rangers down to their 6++ Invul.... with the "FRF, SRF" order, a squad of 10 Lambdan Lions can get 37 shots, 28-29 hits (with RRs of 1s from WL Trait), 14-15 wounds, and 11-12 Unsaved Wounds. Relative to the rest of the AM, that is a highly efficient way to kill Skitarii, with two squads of Deep Striking Lambdan Lions able to reliably "one shot" a fully buffed up Vanguard/Ranger blob.

 

Similarly, against things like Sacrosanct Celestians in Cover, a 10 man Lambdan Lion squad with Strat support can reliably kill almost an entire 10 Sister squad, which is very tough for most opponents. Even against Drukhari, with their Invul saves, Lambdan Lions can use the Strat to get MWs on 6s to Wound to chip through things like Raiders, Talos, and characters with Invuls while their AP-3 Lasguns can make short work of Kabalite Warriors, Incubi, Scourges, etc.

[duz_]

How does that compare on a pt / pt basis? Issue with Scions in general is their short range shooting, particularly for rapid fire range.

[sairence]

Personally, I think HS Lasguns aren't high enough S and range to be more than just a side-note. Yes, they work into those targets, but HS Volleyguns do it better at higher range and S, for only a few points more and I haven't found a proper use case for them yet. I wish they became an Assault weapon, Heavy is just a weird for it and Scions in general. Extra range on the Volleygun would be great too, to give it an edge over Plasma there.

 

For the lasguns, the fact that you can't properly doubletap out of deepstrike for most regiments is a huge issue. And if you use them as Lions en masse, you'll probably combine them with the MW on 6s to hit strat, which makes the AP irrelevant.

 

Scions are made for all the special weapons and the Lions in particular work best as a mechanised detachment with buffed Taurox Primes. They don't get any particular buffs out of deepstrike and the extra AP is often wasted due to so many things having invun saves.

 

They're still one of the best all-purpose picks thanks to the amazing WL-trait so you'll never go wrong with them.

Edited September 15, 2021 by sairence

[Diagramdude]

Lambdan Lions dakka prime spam with an officer for reroll 1s and refractor field 5+ invulnerable supported by demo TC and FP manticore is probably our most viable build until the codex comes out.

[OldWherewolf]

There's really a downsides with scions:

 

1. (as mentioned) can't rapid fire out of deepstrike
2. You can't take them in the same detachment as our main killy units (TCs & manticores)
3. They run out of steam really quick due to lack of bodies

On #1, it's only a a problem if you're planning on taking a backfield objective, but most of the time you're screened out.  If you're just planning on dropping in for a ROD or Engage On All Fronts then you're good.  At 45 points, Scions are even more a value pick than regular guards squads

 

#2 is a big problem.  This forces us to spend 2-3 CP for another detachment just to play with them. 

 

Finally #3 is what hurts the most.  With T3 and 4+ armor, we're not that durable, and with only 5 bodies for 45 points, we're more expensive than a lot of units that we're trading for.  5-man skitari rangers are only 40 points to start.  10 Celestian Sacresants is 140 points (sans extra wargear).  So we're lacking in sheer number of bodies it takes to get to turn 5.

 

2 squads of scions with 2xHSVG and Tempestor Prime with TCR is 155, so we're still trading down.  (Sacresants in cover get  a 1+ save, so even AP-3 gives them a 4+ save in cover)

 

Most competitive lists are still running a primary detachment of regular guard, and a Patrol of LL Scions, most often for those ROD or EOAF points. 

[sairence]

#2 is incorrect. You can take Scions in a regular Guard detachment just fine, they just don't benefit from any special rules.

[jarms48]

I’ve been playing infantry spam Scions. Anywhere from 160 - 180 models.

 

It’s been doing pretty well, definitely better than my regular Guard. Hotshots with FRFSRF and EPS (requires the Laurels relic) is devastating to vehicles. Especially if you’re in the RR1 aura.

 

Against infantry FRFSRF is great too. Especially if you pop either the +1 strength stratagem, or the +1 to wound stratagem. Then there’s also the exploding mortal wounds on 6’s.

[OldWherewolf]

#2 is incorrect. You can take Scions in a regular Guard detachment just fine, they just don't benefit from any special rules.

Ay, but the question was about Lamden Lions (or any specialized regiment), which you can't take in a normal detachment.

 

 

I’ve been playing infantry spam Scions. Anywhere from 160 - 180 models.

 

It’s been doing pretty well, definitely better than my regular Guard. Hotshots with FRFSRF and EPS (requires the Laurels relic) is devastating to vehicles. Especially if you’re in the RR1 aura.

 

Against infantry FRFSRF is great too. Especially if you pop either the +1 strength stratagem, or the +1 to wound stratagem. Then there’s also the exploding mortal wounds on 6’s.

Interesting. How have you been filling out the last ~500 points, or have you just been filling out with bodies?

Edited September 19, 2021 by Brainpsyk

[WarriorFish]

Now I've finally got a Stormie game in, albeit a small one: they're pretty decent as a unit. I can see how jarms gets good results with so many the issue has always been the breadth of choice (i.e. very little). The reach you have is great and with the Psychic Awakening book you have a good set of tools to help you get the job done. As has been mentioned the range is the main problem along with Strength so if you don't have the numbers then something to help here goes far.

 

We definitely need to hear more about Stormtrooper lists and how they perform, all the more so at larger points where they have increasingly less to work with.

[jarms48]

Interesting. How have you been filling out the last ~500 points, or have you just been filling out with bodies?

Plasma guns, lots of plasma guns. EPS makes plasma amazing at killing vehicles/monsters, with the RR1 aura it’s pretty hard to die of an overheat. 4 plasma guns, or 4 plasma guns and a plasma pistol can do a ton of wounds. The latter is a potential 18 damage from 9 shots, or 9 damage if they have a -1 damage ability.

[LinkStatic]

I love the lambdan lions trait,strat and relic. In my last match, I took a scions detachment (2 Temp Primes, 2x5 Plasma, command squad 4 melta, 1x10 with 4 HSVG) but as Iotan Gorgonnes and the 5" deepstrike is sooo useful. Its hard to pass on that. I want to try LL and maybe add the three Taurox Primes I have in along with a Valkyrie.

[Diagramdude]

If you’re going pure scions or majority scions Lambdan Lions is usually the strongest choice, AP3 on hotshots is such a hard counter to the ignore AP1/2 factions that would blunt your shooting otherwise, and AP4 plasma is great vs power armor and vehicles. The relic and warlord trait are flat out amazing for a dakka prime parking lot, and the mortal wound stratagem is situationally good against something with a good invulnerable save, especially if you’re eligible to reroll wound rolls via EPS or Vengeance for Cadia.

 

However if you are just bringing a smaller detachment of scions to augment your main force, the other scion regiments offer compelling tech depending on what you need. Lambdan Lions scale off their relic and warlord auras, plus the number of guns you are bringing to benefit from the extra AP. That doesn’t really pay out when you only bring 500-600 points of them.

 

LinkStatic makes a good point on Iotan Gorgonnes, just a couple melta squads can make a massive point-for-point impact off the 5” deep strike and don’t need a Valkyrie delivery. A 200-300pt patrol could force your opponent into cagey movement for several turns.

 

I’ve had success with full bare bone squads of Iotan Dragons, each 90pt squad rapid firing out of deepstrike with 36 hotshots and a plasma pistol, although it sucks against ignore AP2 targets.

 

I also really like 3 melta command squads of Kappic Eagles in a Valkyrie. 12 meltas disembarking 5” away, hitting on 2s and the tempestor prime giving them 3 orders from 24” away. Gives you huge flexibility on where to drop them without worrying about order range, and 120pts on the valk and 240pt on the meltas can usually trade up in kill points. You do need to pay for the three primes though.

[sairence]

The Melta-squads for the Gorgonnes are great, but I've been tending towards just one or two barebones 5-man squads. Some armies are really thin on the boadlrd and if their positioning themselves wrong on an objective you can straight up drop on the other side with your obsec and steal it.

 

Can really swing a game.

[Spiky Norman]

I like the idea of melta Command Squads dropped close by a Valkyrie, but if you put two (or three) of those in a Valkyrie, it'll be a prime target to shoot down in the 1st turn.

On the other hand if you don't, you kind of want to go Gorgonnes to be able to use the strat on at least one group, but then you loose out on a lot of the Lions stuff. And since you have to have one Tempestor per Command Squad running two battallions is getting unwieldy.

 

Additionally if you want to run Lions, and use Valkyries to drop melta Command squads in, and you want to spread them out, so that they are not all in the same Valkyrie, then you sort of need to run at least two 5-man to fill the rest of the space in the Valkyrie a long with a Tempestor perhaps.

But I also like to have one or two 5-mans in the back for home objective camping, and I also like to run 5 10-mans (4 plasma, one Hotshots for Mortal wound strat), which then necessitates that you run two batallions with an extra CP-cost.

 

So it all gets in the way of each other, I find.

[INKS]

I was looking at the Kappic Eagle. But they only have 1 heavy weapon right? And it's not super awesome, it's ok but probably not worth their benefit?

[sairence]

I was looking at the Kappic Eagle. But they only have 1 heavy weapon right? And it's not super awesome, it's ok but probably not worth their benefit?

The only infantry heavy weapon are HS Volleyguns and they unfortunately aren't as good as Plasmas. I've tried to make them work a couple of times, but they always kinda disappoint.

[INKS]

 

I was looking at the Kappic Eagle. But they only have 1 heavy weapon right? And it's not super awesome, it's ok but probably not worth their benefit?

The only infantry heavy weapon are HS Volleyguns and they unfortunately aren't as good as Plasmas. I've tried to make them work a couple of times, but they always kinda disappoint.

 

I appreciate the feedback. that was my fear. just doesn't work enough with only 1 heavy weapon

[Mordian Glory]

I have been using LL Scions as my go to competitive guard army for last 6 months and I have managed to get a solid 60-66%% win rate with them. 

 

At the last GT event I went to I went 3-1-1, beating Admech, drawing against Drukari. The key is to have the Dakka Taurox's do the anti horde and the Scion Squads kill the big stuff.

 

I can confidently say that they are one of the top 3 competitive guard builds at the moment.

[Diagramdude]

2k of LL or do you mix in TCs and Manticores? I’ve found that shooty lists without ignore LOS shooting can lose really hard to buildings.

[sairence]

Deepstriking Scions kinda sidestep the issue of LOS, as they can just drop in behind whatever the opponent is hiding. And anything they keep back to screen you out is less units pushing forward.

[INKS]

What are the other 2 lists?

I have been using LL Scions as my go to competitive guard army for last 6 months and I have managed to get a solid 60-66%% win rate with them. 

 

At the last GT event I went to I went 3-1-1, beating Admech, drawing against Drukari. The key is to have the Dakka Taurox's do the anti horde and the Scion Squads kill the big stuff.

 

I can confidently say that they are one of the top 3 competitive guard builds at the moment.

[Diagramdude]

Deepstriking scions can theoretically sidestep LOS but in many games I’ve found as guard when I don’t have artillery, my opponent can safely secure his home objective with a cheap flimsy unit all game which allows his strong units to go on the offensive. But if I have a strong contigent of ignore-LOS shooting, more expensive enemy units must stay home on objectives because one small cultist squad in a building on the home objective could easily get wiped out for a 10 point swing on primary.

 

I think running majority scions is definitely one of our most viable builds right now but there is good reason to mix in a regular guard detachment with some artillery, probably with TCs in the HQ choice.