And for my next game (UPDATE: with pics)

[Prot]

Well I'm stuck between ideas for my next game.
 
- I just finished painting flamer Rubrics to add to my squads. It took forever to paint these guys, and I had to paint squad sorcs to go with them, and I was getting bored of the ones in the kit, so I just did a basic kit bash with the ones in the Exalted box for some variety. Man I am done painting these dudes for a while!
 
The conundrum is this:
 
- I am still with the belief that Duplicity is the best. I hate how good it is, and how -not- good some of the other cults are proving to be.
 
- Knowledge is one of my favourites. It's just... fun. Problem is it's hard to get real mileage out of. So many ways of mitigating ranged damage and we don't really do that well with it, except Massed warpfire weapons do have appeal for this. 
 
The second problem: Relics and CP. I'm a huge fan of Egleighen's Orrery with Knowledge. Tough though to get fully functional out side of troops/termies because it's only Core. So we're back to using Helbrutes/Contemptors (I'm removing my Contemptor though ... starving for CP). Knowledge is tricky to get working well to me. I always want the most relics with this which means more HQ's, and an Exalted Sorc... ugh.
 
- Time. This was my old favourite but I feel with 3 wound termies, and our odd ability to cast on a 9+ and get one back (stratagem) has made this relegated to Patrol status for me. The relics are fun, but the impact seems oddly diminished since they nerfed the power, and increased termies to 3 wounds. (I realize getting back more than one model is seen as a heinous idea, but it puts a glass ceiling on the utility of this as a cult power.)
 
Solution:
- Make a 3 patrol army with Time/Knowledge/Duplicity ! Fill it with Contemptors, and have no direction with the army, and present the most complex matrix of psychic powers ever, boring your opponent to tears!!! All of this while having zero CP!!!
 
Okay, back to reality.... 
 
What do you folks think of a Battalion of Cult of Knowledge, 4 rubric squads, Helbrute/vindicator (still want to try one)/Ectofiend.
 
Then a Patrol of Time for 10 Scarabs, and an Exalted Sorc?
 
Does the Patrol of Time work? The Cult of Knowledge would be nice with 10 Scarab Occult able to use that ability.
By dumping the Cult of Time I gain 2 CP, lose the 'free' termie every turn, but I lose my Exalted Sorc as my preferred Trio of HQ's is: DP w/Wings, Ahriman, Infernal Master.
 
At the end of all the complications of creating a Knowledge based list that will work, I have to ask... is it worth it? Anyone think Knowledge is a contender in the endgame? Should I stick to good ol' Duplicity?
 
Thoughts?

Edited September 21, 2021 by Prot
Colour format fixed

[Mushkilla]

- Knowledge is one of my favourites. It's just... fun. Problem is it's hard to get real mileage out of. So many ways of mitigating ranged damage and we don't really do that well with it, except Massed warpfire weapons do have appeal for this.

Empiric Trespass is a great power. Honestly, I'm considering cult of knowledge more and more. Comparing it to Wrath of the Wronged is a nice way to put it in perspective.

 

When you need 4+ -> 4+ (re-roll 1) = 16%

When you need 4+ -> 3+             = 32%

When you need 3+ -> 3+ (re-roll 1) = 16.6%

When you need 3+ -> 2+             = 25.7%

 

So when you are needing 4s to wound. Empiric Trespass is equivalent to 50% of Wrath of the Wronged. But it doesn't cost 2CP, affects your whole army, isn't affected/countered by Transhuman, works in multiple phases, and doesn't care about unit size (Wrath of the Wronged's effect diminishes with unit size).

 

Things look even better when you are wounding on 3s. Empiric Trespass is equivalent to 64.6% of Wrath of the Wronged.

 

My main issue with cult of knowledge is it's really something you want everything in your army to benefit from and the prevalence of MSU makes single target debuffs less potent. That being said it's a substantial damage boost. 

 

Solution:

- Make a 3 patrol army with Time/Knowledge/Duplicity ! Fill it with Contemptors, and have no direction with the army, and present the most complex matrix of psychic powers ever, boring your opponent to tears!!! All of this while having zero CP!!!

 

I am actually considering tri-cult. I know we love CP but ever since realising we can replay Astral Blast on any unit just by having one Cult of Magic caster has intrigued me. Cult of Mutations power is fantastic too. Opens up running two infernal masters... Or three Daemon princes...

 

 

Does the Patrol of Time work? The Cult of Knowledge would be nice with 10 Scarab Occult able to use that ability.

By dumping the Cult of Time I gain 2 CP, lose the 'free' termie every turn, but I lose my Exalted Sorc as my preferred Trio of HQ's is: DP w/Wings, Ahriman, Infernal Master.

I think a small patrol is where Time shines. Your really are only ever going to be using it on a single unit of Scarabs. So even in a patrol you are getting 100% of the benefits. The relic and warlord trait are both fantastic too.

 

At the end of all the complications of creating a Knowledge based list that will work, I have to ask... is it worth it? Anyone think Knowledge is a contender in the endgame? Should I stick to good ol' Duplicity?

 

Thoughts?

Duplicity is great. But like Time it doesn't need to be your main detachment to get the benefits. You can only at most use Sorcerous Facade five times and redeploy d3 units. Arguably you get a lot of the value with a few units able to teleport. Sure there are advantages to having all units be able to teleport as it makes it harder for your opponent to shut down/plan around and gives you a recovery for when your units are out of position (arguably not needed if your positioning is perfect). But the biggest benefit: the mind games of constantly being able to threaten anything on the board turns 1 through 5 is achieved with 2-3 duplicity units. In someways the threat of Sorcerous Facade is worth more than the actual effect and you only need 2-3 units to get that threat.

 

The other options is to use alternatives: like strategic reserve and teleport strike. That being said Duplicity is not the same as reserves as it allows a unit to be in two places. It's current location and anywhere else more that 9" away from an enemy unit. The current location part allows you to project threat and stops your opponent controlling all the space. It lets you control an objective in the backfield and still threaten the whole board (this would require two units normally, one on the objective, one in reserve). Screen your backfield from deepstrike and then after turn 3 jump back into the action (rather than be relegated to being effectively out of the game for the last two turns). This ability to allow a unit to do two things is another aspect of Sorcerous Facade that makes it so potent. So although we can get some of the effects of duplicity through strategic reserve, teleport strike and webway infiltration it's not quite the same.

 

Hope that helps!

Edited September 15, 2021 by Mushkilla

[Prot]

Really good thoughts as usual.

 

I think although I made a single detachment Duplicity army, I'm going to swap the cult out for Knowledge.

[Prot]

Had the game. I stuck with Knowledge, and ironically I NEVER got off the cult power! It was constantly denied... guess who the opponent was? Turns out it was SoB and that 5+ built in deny on every unit really sucks.

This was our deployment. And in this game, as per this thread, I tried out Egleghein's Orrery, Dreads, and 2 of my old Deathguard Rhino's would play the part of Vindicators.

I played with my normal list which had 4 rubric troops, and 2 5 man Scarab Occult.

The red circles above show where he's hiding units, and tanks. The red X in the lower part of the frame shows the whereabouts of the death of one of my Vindicators. (hit in turn 1... those indirect capable tanks are still amazing.)

SoB got to go first. I saw a huge push for mid table. He divided his 2 10 man squads of Sacresants in Rhino's.

I got to 'Psych' the rhino nearly to death, and the left over Sacresants were roasted by multi flamers, and shooting.

At mid table, he had everything above (minus Sacresants). This may have been a bigger mistake.

Here' the Sacresants and vehicle are gone, but the push is tremendous for mid. I end up putting Egleghein's Orrery on the Paragon Warsuits, which actually prevented them from using their -1 damage ability, and also allowed me to shoot through the forest unmitigated.

Those suits still took a beating, and I nearly killed Celestine as she was closer to the action then he thought.

On the other side of mid, my DP and withered troops take on the Sacresants (marines proxy).

I lost a lot of troops here, and he had Melta Retributors, which I somehow flamed right down to the man. The DP would get into CC with the Sacresants and that DID NOT work out. That sword and his volume of attacks just don't work well in this scenaro.

Here's something interesting. The Sacresants special rule dictates they add to their base attacks if they charge. So we played it like the Conniving plate DID affect those attacks. This isn't a 'bonus' for charging, but something that actually says it changes the base attack count of the Sacresants. I'm curious if we got this right? Anyway, my DP still took 4 wounds, to his 2. Not a good scene.

Without going into too much detail, he called it after his T3! I was in such a lead, and I had my Termies take down his tank after getting off a lucky deep strike charge. Mid table was evaporated until only Vaul and a Dogmata was left.

It was finally a convincing win for TS vs the SoB. Some short insights:

- Egleghein's is cool, but hard to really get working, and 'core' makes it tough since most core is only D1 anyway.

- Vindicators. Wow, I'd love to say these were great, but they were horrid. I rolled a 2 or 3 for shots, you miss one, you feel lucky to wound once or twice. It's just a shame GW has clearly told us they don't want anything a marine player could use from the 'classic' line to really work here. (At least that's my feeling). Aside from the T8 which was great in this matchup (against his tanks) this was not a solid unit.

- Helbrutes. Hate to say it... I really do, but if you want a 'fun' shooty, walker, this is it.

- The twin Volkite Contemptor. It still fails to impress me. It's so spikey in damage and ability.

- Double deep strike termies may be the way I go in the future. I've tried every configuration imaginable, and having 2 squads off the board plays some good mind tricks with your opponent.

- SoB denials are also spikey. Last game they did not have a huge effect, but this game they were brutally efficient. I used my Cabal Points to ensure passing of the Psychic Actions.

- The psychic actions with cabal points is a big difference maker, but very expensive points wise. I still love that you can shoot after a psychic action, but I'm surprised how infrequently that actually comes into play. I used widdled down Rubrics for these actions so it makes very little difference. Still I love our secondary Mutate Landscape in most matchups because of this.

As mentioned at the beginning, I never got off the base cult power for Knowledge, and in this game it would have been quite handy with all my low end shooting!

[Naryn]

Love these writeups! I feel like I'm getting a better feel for our codex from reading them, both interesting and educational. And all the pictures of lovely models certainly don't hurt. Thanks for sharing.

[Xenith]

Did you manage to use the AP-1 strat on the VolCon? S6+ AP-1 would hurt sisters, I think?

Again, you don't want to use it ll the time, or have a unit that sucks up a CP a turn to be effective, but if something needed to die it might be useful. 

Edited September 22, 2021 by Xenith

[Ahzek451]

I've had great success with my Volcon in my games so far with the combination of the +1 to hit spell, re-roll 1's from nearby exalted, and the -1 to hit strat. With an added missile rack, it helps. +1 to strength as needed for heavily armored foes. So far I have been able to take down 2-3 raiders a turn with it reliably. Adding in the Orrery as needed. 

[Prot]

Did you manage to use the AP-1 strat on the VolCon? S6+ AP-1 would hurt sisters, I think?

Again, you don't want to use it ll the time, or have a unit that sucks up a CP a turn to be effective, but if something needed to die it might be useful. 

 

Yes I did. 

 

It was something I've used a few times before, but again we play with a fairly decent amount of terrain so against the sisters in ruins I wouldn't bother shooting at them as in the past they still get the 3+ and not much happens. The CP are so precious in this army..... So when I use it is something has to be in the open, or unable to take advantage.

 

My best play with it was -1 AP with the VolCon hitting the Sacresants in the open... that was HUGE. They were saving on 3's, they couldn't take advantage of the -1 to hit forest (orrery) AND I was wounding on 2's. Not only that for the first time I got 3 mortal wounds! I swear I never get that lucky. It was probably the biggest moment my VolCon has had to date... it was awesome.

 

I've had great success with my Volcon in my games so far with the combination of the +1 to hit spell, re-roll 1's from nearby exalted, and the -1 to hit strat. With an added missile rack, it helps. +1 to strength as needed for heavily armored foes. So far I have been able to take down 2-3 raiders a turn with it reliably. Adding in the Orrery as needed. 

 

That would be a great army for it. I'm still hedging a bit... 

 

I just saw an Art of War episode where they interview a guy who went 4-1 with his Thousand Sons at a 49 person tournament (1 short of a GT!). The guy said he was going to pull his twin VolCons. Kind of a similar feeling to me... Helbrutes and CP's are better.

[Lucky_Lee]

Not to be a nercromancer here but I just read this post.

I too enjoy cult of knowledge!

My solution to getting maximum bang for my buck has been to run lots of obsec infantry and a Fire Raptor.

Nothing says overwhelming firepower like a "40k AC130" screaming death at you from across the board.

I usually deck it out with lascannons and Quad Heavy Bolter Racks. Buff it with weaver of fates, glamour of tzeentch, and presage then kick it into hover and just chill behind your infantry screens. This easily kills most MSUs, I've been known to pick up 3 in a turn with this. You can even get extra reach with empyric guidance. (Ive used perplex in a pinch before to force my opponent's backfield heavy weapons to move up to shoot and making them easier targets.)

Then you have heavy weapon support that our army normally lacks in the lascannons. With the ability to rip invulnerable saves off units, most dreadnoughts don't stand a chance. 

For extra spice take an Infernal Master and bump the STR of all the guns +1. That gives you  (4 attacks) STR 10 lascannons, (10 attacks) STR 7 Avenger Bolt Cannons, AND (24 attacks) STR 6 Heavy Bolters that because you're already next to a bunch of psykers you can pop the ensorcelled infusion strat for an additional -1 AP to ALL of those shots.
He can also simply just take away your target's cover bonuses as well!

Against your empyric trespass target it will reroll 1s to wound!!!!! (Another way to make sure your lascannons put on the hurt)

The obvious downside to this is that you have to actually buy and build the damn thing. It is a little expensive even for GW and this was hands down the worst kit I've ever assembled from GW/FW. It was a nightmare, I absolutely hated it and don't plan on ever buying another one for that reason. My advice is to have it studio built and painted unless you got those skills or just enjoy the pain. (we're still a chaos faction I suppose) 

It's a fun centerpiece unit much like Magnus and similarly points costed. (Personally I think it's better than Magus for slightly less points.)
Once painted it looks really good in that Thousand Sons blue and gold.

VENGANCE FOR PROSPERO!

[Ahzek451]

I have a converted Fire raptor. And I have been on the fence on this thing. I am glad you have had good success with it. I am too concerned about such a heavy points investment for an aircraft that cannot claim objectives. And granted, you can spin some buffs on them, I fear raider spam and such would take it out too early. Frustrating too that there is no way to regain wounds as it drops in brackets and becomes a pain to shoot with. 

I find a lot of pluses and minuses to this unit, but I would be happy to hear more reports with one in it. 

[Lucky_Lee]

I have a converted Fire raptor. And I have been on the fence on this thing. I am glad you have had good success with it. I am too concerned about such a heavy points investment for an aircraft that cannot claim objectives. And granted, you can spin some buffs on them, I fear raider spam and such would take it out too early. Frustrating too that there is no way to regain wounds as it drops in brackets and becomes a pain to shoot with.

 

I find a lot of pluses and minuses to this unit, but I would be happy to hear more reports with one in it.

Remember you can always put it in reserve and then have it come in. Quite an investment I know but if your opponent is gonna hang back his raiders to deal with it then you're already winning. When the Raptor comes in it should be able to drop 2-3 by itself. Even with poor rolling I can easily get 1 and heavily damage 2 others. I usually pepper my targets with MW to make sure before the raptor shoots. Edited October 19, 2021 by Xenoscry