Surcoats and Tabards

[BitsHammer]

So because it came up in the rumor thread I wanted to see if I could find a name for the "half-tabard" that we often see pop up on Marines, and well I'm just going to ruin some things for people because if I'm going to spend a long time trying to find accurate images of middle ages clothing, I figured I'd subject everyone else to it too.

 

Space Marines aren't wearing surcoats or traditional tabards.

 

So here are some surcoats (styles vary for surcoats but there is a common element you'll see in most of them):

 

So you'll note that the surcoat men wear splits in the front which allows them to ride horses, climb up and over things and generally gives them greater mobility. Women wore the sideless surcoat which was an additional layer worn over one's dress and didn't have that accommodation, nor did it split on the sides like a Space Marine's does.

 

So what about traditional tabards? Well they're short coats of a number of styles (sleeved, sleeveless, with sholder coverings) which also doesn't fit the arpron like covering Marines have been seen wearing.

Note the side openings but the short cut stopping at or above the knees.

 

So what are they wearing? A tabard:

 

Yes, that's right, in British English this kind of apron (also known as a Cobbler's Apron in the US) is also called a tabard. And it fits what Marines wear the most closely (just get rid of the pockets). And yes, these are also short but the cut is similar to a tabard thus it gained the same name.

 

So I guess we can finally put it to rest: The Black Templars wear tabards, but they don't wear tabards. Blame 38k years of language drift and someone making a mistake. You know, like how Land thought monkies should have poisonous stingers in their tails.

 

EDIT: I was talking to about the confusion on twitter and someone pointed out that the Templars seem to actually be wearing monastic scapula:

So there we go. They're not dressing as knights, they're dressing as priests and clergy.

Edited September 20, 2021 by Fulkes

[TheOneTrueZon]

Of all the things I imagined happening when we got new stuff, the tangent the conversation has taken when it comes to tabards / robes / apron / surcoat / pancho / potato sack debate is NOT what I saw coming. It's just so.... completely, comically, nerdy. I love it and hate it at the same time. What is happening? We're getting everything we wanted and then some, perhaps this is just hysterical hyperbole on a Shakespearian level. Ah 40k!

[BitsHammer]

Of all the things I imagined happening when we got new stuff, the tangent the conversation has taken when it comes to tabards / robes / apron / surcoat / pancho / potato sack debate is NOT what I saw coming. It's just so.... completely, comically, nerdy. I love it and hate it at the same time. What is happening? We're getting everything we wanted and then some, perhaps this is just hysterical hyperbole on a Shakespearian level. Ah 40k!

I went looking to see if there was a name for the tabard we normally see Marines wearing and I found it's a tabard regardless of how you slice it. It's just not a middle ages one. Not that it stopped the Templars in the past.

[Bryan Blaire]

 

Nope, couldn’t resist.

 

I think it’s really apparent how that’s not what the newly depicted BT Neophytes and Initiates aren’t wearing, but it honestly doesn’t matter (it’s also funny that a type of apron is called a tabard across the pond - it’s almost like everything that has been said is true - how very 40K).  And if that halter drape thing is also called a tabard, I guess we can lump the BT in with the fashionable clothing folks like the DA.  :lol:

 

I really am happy that the BT got new models and that the fans of the faction really like them - I only wish at this point that the Space Wolves, Dark Angels, and Blood Angels had gotten as much - it truly is a great haul for a long neglected faction.

[BitsHammer]

 

Nope, couldn’t resist.

 

I think it’s really apparent how that’s not what the newly depicted BT Neophytes and Initiates aren’t wearing, but it honestly doesn’t matter (it’s also funny that a type of apron is called a tabard across the pond - it’s almost like everything that has been said is true - how very 40K).

 

I really am happy that the BT got new models and that the fans of the faction really like them - I only wish at this point that the Space Wolves, Dark Angels, and Blood Angels had gotten as much - it truly is a great haul for a long neglected faction.

The old Black Templars weren't wearing traditional tabards or surcoats either. In fact, the only ones who can claim to be wearing surcoats are the Dark Angels: 

 

So whatever you want to call the thing the Templars are wearing (I've honestly given up looking at this point), it's never been a true tabard (recall a tabard is a SHORT coat). And the new models are just copying the old ones:

 

And just for fun: these never covered the backs of their wearers and are from the original BT upgrade sprue: 

 

So I don't get the complaints when Templars have always dressed in something that looks like a tabard but is about two times as long as it should be, and often doesn't even have a back on it.

 

EDIT: so the Templars aren't dressed as knights, apparently they're dressed as priests. Because someone pointed out to me on Twitter that the cloth actually resembles the cut of a monastic scapular:

And no, buttons aren't always a feature of the scapula.

Edited September 20, 2021 by Fulkes

[Bryan Blaire]

I’m not sure what complaints you’re seeing at all - I haven’t been voicing complaints, just saying that I don’t see what others are seeing, but do see something very different (which amuses me, especially if you paint it green).  I can say what I personally see or don’t see without it being a complaint about the model (especially when it’s something that I could fix with Greenstuff or other miniature fabric methods).

 

I don’t think I’ve usually referred to what the Templars have been depicted in as tabards or surcoats (I typically don’t refer to it at all).

 

Usually the Dark Angels’ attire is referred to as robes, not surcoats, because most are whole cloth around with a divide open at the front, instead of the sides (although some are slit in the front, back, and partially up the sides), while others appear to just slip directly over the head like a sleeveless ministerial robe/gown.  Asmodai’s garb does appear to be a surcoat or ministerial robe, while Azrael’s is not, for instance, with the more wrap-around robe opening at the front.

 

Closet things to surcoats on GW models I can find are actually on generic models - the Space Marine Librarian with force staff and cherub pretty much has one - although it’s depicted as slouching off one shoulder, but it does go over and down the back.  The Ancient from Dark Imperium sort of has one, but it’s also got that weird stopping at the chest and either attaching or going under there thing, with a capelet/shoulder shrug/shawl over the top of the armor.  All in all, I really don’t think that GW likes depicting surcoats (which probably has a good fluff reason like needing to display the aquila).

[BitsHammer]

I’m not sure what complaints you’re seeing at all - I haven’t been voicing complaints, just saying that I don’t see what others are seeing, but do see something very different (which amuses me, especially if you paint it green).  I can say what I personally see or don’t see without it being a complaint about the model (especially when it’s something that I could fix with Greenstuff or other miniature fabric methods).

 

I don’t think I’ve usually referred to what the Templars have been depicted in as tabards or surcoats (I typically don’t refer to it at all).

 

Usually the Dark Angels’ attire is referred to as robes, not surcoats, because most are whole cloth around with a divide open at the front, instead of the sides (although some are slit in the front, back, and partially up the sides), while others appear to just slip directly over the head like a sleeveless ministerial robe/gown.  Asmodai’s garb does appear to be a surcoat or ministerial robe, while Azrael’s is not, for instance, with the more wrap-around robe opening at the front.

 

Closet things to surcoats on GW models I can find are actually on generic models - the Space Marine Librarian with force staff and cherub pretty much has one - although it’s depicted as slouching off one shoulder, but it does go over and down the back.  The Ancient from Dark Imperium sort of has one, but it’s also got that weird stopping at the chest and either attaching or going under there thing, with a capelet/shoulder shrug/shawl over the top of the armor.  All in all, I really don’t think that GW likes depicting surcoats (which probably has a good fluff reason like needing to display the aquila).

So I think you missed that Surcoats are sleeveless and slip over the head (like what the Dark Angels chaplain is wearing in that mini I posted). If it opens in the front it's either a sleeveless robe or coat.

 

The "tabard" thing wasn't a shot at you but rather a curiosity spun out of that conversation which eventually led me to monastic scapulars which at least puts a proper name to the thing the Templars have always worn.

Edited September 21, 2021 by Fulkes

[Bryan Blaire]

So I think you missed that Surcoats are sleeveless and slip over the head (like what the Dark Angels chaplain is wearing in that mini I posted). If it opens in the front it's either a sleeveless robe or coat.

 

The "tabard" thing wasn't a shot at you but rather a curiosity spun out of that conversation which eventually led me to monastic scapulas which at least puts a proper name to the thing the Templars have always worn.

No, I don’t think I missed it at all… and surcoats can be both sleeved and sleeveless.  That Dark Angels chaplain is Asmodai, who as I said, is wearing either a surcoat or ministerial robe (which being a Chaplain, might actually be both in one, as they are very similar garments).

 

And yes, the righteous warrior-priest thing I can totally see for the Black Templars (they are even already all in standard Chaplain colors).

 

Another model that does look like he was in a surcoat (or very close, but is also similar to the monastic scapular) - the old Grimaldus model.

[BitsHammer]

 

So I think you missed that Surcoats are sleeveless and slip over the head (like what the Dark Angels chaplain is wearing in that mini I posted). If it opens in the front it's either a sleeveless robe or coat.

 

The "tabard" thing wasn't a shot at you but rather a curiosity spun out of that conversation which eventually led me to monastic scapulas which at least puts a proper name to the thing the Templars have always worn.

No, I don’t think I missed it at all… and surcoats can be both sleeved and sleeveless.  That Dark Angels chaplain is Asmodai, who as I said, is wearing either a surcoat or ministerial robe (which being a Chaplain, might actually be both in one, as they are very similar garments).

 

And yes, the righteous warrior-priest thing I can totally see for the Black Templars (they are even already all in standard Chaplain colors).

 

Another model that does look like he was in a surcoat (or very close, but is also similar to the monastic scapular) - the old Grimaldus model.

 

I shared Grimaldus in the same post, and that was not a surcoat. Remember on the of the defining features of the surcoat is that it has a split opening for the legs in the front and not the sides.

[Noserenda]

I mean they are usually wearing a backless/cut down tabard or scapula.

An apron if you will.

[tvih]

It's all good and appropriate to wear an apron - less heretic/xenos blood on your holy wargear!

[Marshal Reinhard]

I think it was settled long ago that a single sheet of cloth covering only the front, is an apron. 

 

It's a consequence of simplifying the miniature that what are meant to be tabards, only go on the one side, technically making them aprons.

 

Some models do go over the back too, so aren't aprons, but the single side one, technically are.

 

 

Fine and dandy, can we move on now? Like i thought we had years ago?

[Sir Clausel]

I have absolutely nothing against what they are called or not. Rule of cool applies here and it is awesome!

But since everyone keeps saying apron... I cant stop imagining a marine wearing an apron and chefs hat with a spadula in one have and a pot in the other screaming "Suffer not the uncooked to live"!

[Marshal Mattias]

I mean, regardless of what you call it, every cloth worn by every marine is a ridiculous affectation

[Urkh]

Fashionhammer 40,000