Thoughts on faction-locked non-character units?

[Dracos]

Basically it boils down to this for me.

 

If we give all chapters the same stuff there’s not really any point in having different chapters.

It would be like 3rd edition again for most.

 

 

That's not a great argument against "shared tech" and "training". 3rd edition was a Golden Age.

 

 

 

"Snowflakes" read as Ultramarine, Blood Angel, Dark Angel, and Space Wolves. For decades only these Chapters had special units or characters. They're the reason for DIY Chapters such as Blue Angels and Crimson Wolves.

Edited September 28, 2021 by Dracos

[phandaal]

 

"Snowflakes" read as Ultramarine, Blood Angel, Dark Angel, and Space Wolves. For decades only these Chapters had special units or characters. They're the reason for DIY Chapters such as Blue Angels and Crimson Wolves.

 

 

What about Black Templars?

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Chapters that have unique units:

Black Templars

Blood Angels

Dark Angels

Grey Knights *

Imperial Fists

Iron Hands

Salamanders

Space Wolves

Ultramarines

[Dracos]

:) What about Black Templars?

 

Those poor boys are part of what made 3e so special and then GW practically squatted them for the next 6 editions from the looks of it (I was gone during 6 and 7th) ... and ... and ... lol ... Land Raider Crusader. See shared technology (heck even the Emperor Champon was available for a while for everyone) :)

[phandaal]

Black Templars weren't squatted - they were one of the few chapters with their own codex for many years until 6th ed. (I think) rolled them up. Even then they had their special Crusader Squads.

 

Hell, Blood Angels and Dark Angels didn't even have their own codexes until 3rd ed.

 

Want to establish what makes a chapter a "snowflake" worthy of having its units sent over to other chapters, since it doesn't have anything to do with being powerful or not.

[TheNewman]

 

 

 

I think what bugs me is that GW rolled the snowflakes into the main codex but half-arsed it, neither maintaining all the preexisting Vanilla exclusives nor moving a few of the obvious units into the main codex, nor even foreshadowing that "Vanilla" would mean less by the time everyone had a new Supplement.

 

The main chapters have all had their own supplement separate from the consolidated Space Marines codex for years now now. When you say "snowflakes," which chapters specifically do you mean?

I thought everyone knew what that meant. Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Space Wolves, and Deathwatch, the four chapters that had distinct codexes separate from Codex: Space Marines in 8th and that have a significant number of unique units.

 

Edit: To my surprise that appears to not be the consensus.

Edited September 28, 2021 by TheNewman

[MegaVolt87]

Of course every OG chapter from the first founding should have its own chapter unique(s). They have legion uniques in the HH game, why not in 40k? Its just lazy design from GW and them playing favourites is why some have more than others. The supplements were a wasted opportunity as they didn't introduce enough chapter specific content. The people arguing for de-centralized chapter uniques- seem bitter they got juked with them or something in a game. You all should be more concerned with getting more toys for yourselves than try to rob them from others that have them. Those that have them should band together with those that have not to get them. Pointless infighting here when its as usual GW's engineered problem. 

[phandaal]

Of course every OG chapter from the first founding should have its own chapter unique(s). They have legion uniques in the HH game, why not in 40k? Its just lazy design from GW and them playing favourites is why some have more than others. The supplements were a wasted opportunity as they didn't introduce enough chapter specific content. The people arguing for de-centralized chapter uniques- seem bitter they got juked with them or something in a game. You all should be more concerned with getting more toys for yourselves than try to rob them from others that have them. Those that have them should band together with those that have not to get them. Pointless infighting here when its as usual GW's engineered problem. 

 

It actually does look like GW is working towards giving each of the OG chapters their own cool stuff. So we can keep yelling at clouds here while GW does what they were already going to do anyway! 

[tychobi]

Locked units restrict player creativity. I would love a more creative gaming experience but I am not a good capitalist.

[TheNewman]

Of course every OG chapter from the first founding should have its own chapter unique(s). They have legion uniques in the HH game, why not in 40k? Its just lazy design from GW and them playing favourites is why some have more than others. The supplements were a wasted opportunity as they didn't introduce enough chapter specific content. The people arguing for de-centralized chapter uniques- seem bitter they got juked with them or something in a game. You all should be more concerned with getting more toys for yourselves than try to rob them from others that have them. Those that have them should band together with those that have not to get them. Pointless infighting here when its as usual GW's engineered problem.

I don't recall anyone suggesting taking things away from the chapters that already have them. It's not a zero-sum game here, porting Biker Apothecaries to the main book doesn't take them away from Dark Angels.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

 

 

Basically it boils down to this for me.

 

If we give all chapters the same stuff there’s not really any point in having different chapters.

It would be like 3rd edition again for most.

 

That's not a great argument against "shared tech" and "training". 3rd edition was a Golden Age.

 

 

 

"Snowflakes" read as Ultramarine, Blood Angel, Dark Angel, and Space Wolves. For decades only these Chapters had special units or characters. They're the reason for DIY Chapters such as Blue Angels and Crimson Wolves.

I liked the general rules of 3rd Ed but as far as individuality between chapters there was pretty much nothing.

 

If you weren’t wolves, DA, blood angels, or BT, there was no distinction between IF and UM. If you weren’t part of the big 4 then the only thing that sets you apart from other chapters was the paint scheme.

 

It’s just really stupid. Why try to make chapters less unique? Particularly if the locked units are particularly powerful in game…

Edited September 29, 2021 by Inquisitor_Lensoven

[FormelyKnownAsSmashyPants]

Re: Thunderwolfs; swap big wolves for big horses and tell me that doesn't scream White Scars. Not saying that I want such a unit, because I very much do not, but 'marine cav' doesn't need to be inherently a SW thing.

I always thought Sallies should have Giant Salamander riders.

[Mandragola]

Ultimately this is an issue that comes from the way GW used to release models. They'd bring out new stuff for any given faction, meaning that there are a bunch of these kits. Some of them, like Wulfen, make sense as being exclusive for those chapters. Others, like librarian dreads or apothecaries on bikes, don't.

 

The reason there's no logic to it is that nobody ever really tried to make any. When doing the BA dread the sculptor thought it would be cool to do a librarian version. As a result there's a librarian dread covered in BA iconography that nobody else has access to. They might have done this with the generic venerable dread instead but they just did other stuff instead. And years later on we're all left with the legacy of these decisions, edition after edition. Currently, pretty much the only people getting put inside the old kind of dreadnought must be injured BA librarians, as otherwise redemptors are the new hotness.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Let’s see BA in third edition has Dante, Lemartes, Mephiston and Corbulo plus Moriar the DC dread for characters. For unique units they had Death Company, Honorguard plus command squad characters that could take jumping packs. And of course don’t forget the Baal predator which was decent back then. Edited September 29, 2021 by Black Blow Fly

[Schlitzaf]

:) What about Black Templars?

 

Those poor boys are part of what made 3e so special and then GW practically squatted them for the next 6 editions from the looks of it (I was gone during 6 and 7th) ... and ... and ... lol ... Land Raider Crusader. See shared technology (heck even the Emperor Champon was available for a while for everyone) :)

This is wrong on so many levels we can debate the actual “competitiveness” of Templars:

But we had, 4.5 Unique Units/Datasheets

Helbrecht

Grimaldus

-Cenos existed locked behind Grimaldus

Emperor’s Champion

Crusader Squad*

 

(We also had our own Warlord Traits in 7th but memes).

 

*The Crusader Squad was and is the single best Tactical Equivalent unit in the game bar none. Except Grey Hunters. B/c Hunters had a Bolter&Chain combo. Crusader Squad was effectively 3 Datasheets in one. FauvDevi, a more traditional marine squad and then a Tide Squad.

 

Furthermore the Crusader Squad was almost a Codex in a Datasheet. We could Faux Devi, giving flexibility at 5 man squads no other chapter had. We could take double power weapons + double special weapons and the squad size fo make these units not utterly garbage. Sense tactical level units for melee had to be 11+ models to be viable or reasonable. And by extension our boys were “efficienct.” We were playing around 12ppm if you setup Crusader Squad correctly.

 

While our faction trait…was not amazing. It was solid, reroll run rolls gave us a solid mobility. We had a not terrible ability to stop and stop aggressive physic powers. We weren’t amazing but we certainly in terms of actual support not that bad off.

 

———

 

In terms of snowflakes: UU are irrelevant. Sounds like a hypocritical I know. What matters is that playstyle of the armies are sufficiently unique. Also you’ll tend to notice armies with loads of snowflakes units tend to have weaker generalistic abilities. Ultramarines and Mars paying the Gulliman and Cawl tax. In that several of their factional traits on the tabletop leave much to be desired.

 

So instead of wanting “Super Cool Biker because White Scars do super cool biker things” ask instead “If they an unique unit how would it help highlight or support the Scar Hit and Run Playstyle”. I’d support Biker CVets returning non-legend simply to have a generic elite biker unit. But honestly I’d jusr as much say, that if your issue is you feel competitively gimped because White Scars don’t have a super cool biker unit and you feel, that lack thereof of one makes the army unable to portray said Mongolian hit and run tactics. You already can run/fallback and charge.

 

You have a ton ability to outflank, you have alot of strategems promoting your mobility and more. Also pedantically hou do have a unique biker unit (Khan on Bike).

 

What would a unique unit do to facilitate a playstyle unable to be achieved already?

[TheNewman]

As the WS player who started the thread I'll freely admit that from a competitiveness perspective Scars don't need any help. If I'm not doing well with them then the problem is with me, their tournament results show that very clearly.

 

I'd like to be able to field mounted versions of my Chapter leadership for flavor, although I don't see any reason that Outrider Libbys, Captains, Ancients, or Apothecaries should be unique to White Scars. A Primaris Techmarine riding shotgun on an Invader ATV though...

 

Thinking about it, with Templars getting the pintle Multimelta there are a couple of places where I'd really like to be able to swap rapid fire or heavy guns out for the Assault weapons. In particular WS Outriders would very much like to have the Autobolters instead of the standard Bolt Rifles, although I kind of think Outriders should be equipable with any of the Bolt Rifle variants by default, regardless of Chapter.

 

I'd actually really like Veteran Outriders in the elite slot too. Even without any additional options over the standard Outriders I'd still take them just for how crowded FA usually feels. If GW were handing out Drukhari-style veteran unit upgrades to Vanilla chapters, then Outriders would be the no-brainer choice for WS.

Edited September 30, 2021 by TheNewman

[Medjugorje]

I dont t

 

As the WS player who started the thread I'll freely admit that from a competitiveness perspective Scars don't need any help. If I'm not doing well with them then the problem is with me, their tournament results show that very clearly.

 

not in our meta. 

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

Last 2¢

Every loyalist geneseed should have at least 1-3 named characters and at least 1-2 fluffy unique units or at the very least unique weapon options for vanilla units.

 

I don’t think death watch deserves anything special or unique however, or anything special they get should simply be available to other inquisition related forces.

[ChargingSoll]

Yeah I think every first founding chapter should have their own unique units and characters that then spread to their successors. They are important to the flavour and view on the chapter maybe some of these currently could be spread to other Chapters.

 

I reckon give it time as they will only grow the less supported chapters in the future as marines are eternal for GW. Look at black templar's and sisters of battle and how they went from ancient and barely supported to what they have and still to come for them.

[Helias_Tancred]

lol .. I just replied to this sort of concept in another thread. 

 

No. Units should not be homogenized between the marine chapters. There are two types of marine chapters, Codex-Compliant chapters (Imperial Fists, Raven Guard, Ultramarines, Iron Hands, etc) and Non Codex-Compliant chapters (Blood Angels, Space Wolves, Dark Angels, Black Templars) and those lines should never be removed! They are foundation in the feel and design of the various chapters both in lore, and on the table-top. Its kinda like how in Devastation of Baal Gabriel Seth was worried with the primaris they'd just end up being red ultramarines :)

 

I have spoken ;)

[Blindhamster]

Blood angels are canonically codex compliant. Lol

[Iron Father Ferrum]

And Iron Hands are only kinda/sorta-compliant.

[Helias_Tancred]

Blood angels are canonically codex compliant. Lol

 

It was an honorable attempt and they tried hard :) ,,,,  but the Death Company and the elevated role that the High Chaplain and High Sanguinary Priest played in the chapter ... well technically they were not. They are the closest compared to their peers, Space Wolves, Black Templars, or Dark Angels.

[TheNewman]

 

 

Blood angels are canonically codex compliant. Lol

It was an honorable attempt and they tried hard :) ,,,, but the Death Company and the elevated role that the High Chaplain and High Sanguinary Priest played in the chapter ... well technically they were not. They are the closest compared to their peers, Space Wolves, Black Templars, or Dark Angels.

They're also the only chapter to retain jump-pack Terminators. And the ability to put a Librarian in a Dreadnought and have him stay a Librarian.

 

Not jealous of Libby Dreads, really, I swear.

Edited October 13, 2021 by TheNewman

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

lol .. I just replied to this sort of concept in another thread.

 

No. Units should not be homogenized between the marine chapters. There are two types of marine chapters, Codex-Compliant chapters (Imperial Fists, Raven Guard, Ultramarines, Iron Hands, etc) and Non Codex-Compliant chapters (Blood Angels, Space Wolves, Dark Angels, Black Templars) and those lines should never be removed! They are foundation in the feel and design of the various chapters both in lore, and on the table-top. Its kinda like how in Devastation of Baal Gabriel Seth was worried with the primaris they'd just end up being red ultramarines :)

 

I have spoken ;)

codex compliant doesn’t mean no special units.

If I remember correctly the blue bois themselves have a unique body guard style unit.

 

Besides since girlyman came back a lot of the codex astartes has been throw out the window or generally disregarded.

 

And Seth can bitch all he wants about primaris who at the time hasn’t fallen to either curse, but in the end that’s what Dante, and most sons of sanguinius wanted…was to cure their curses. Honestly that line just seemed like a poor excuse to set up friction…and wasn’t well thought out…it comes of as Seth wanting to remain flawed just for the sake of being different.

Edited October 13, 2021 by Inquisitor_Lensoven