Thousand Sons Game Thoughts

[jgascoine011]

I have had the opportunity to both play against and play with the new thousand sons codex and just wanted to give my impressions of the codex and ask a few questions.

 

The codex i feel is in a slightly wierd position. I deffinetly do not think that thousand sons are OP or even top tier competive. I my opinion admech, drukhari and sisters are at the top, followed by grey knights, deathguard, and certain very specific custodies and ork builds. However, i do think that thousand sons do well against some of these armies (specifically admech, deathguard and perhaps drukhari).

 

I have been pretty much running the same list every game

Arhiman with -1 to hit, +1 to hit and a 4++ who i feel in pretty much manditory in every game

Exaulted sorcerer

Sorcerer in terminator armour

Infernal master with +1S and ignore cover powers

 

10 Scarabs with 2 soul reapers

2 x 5 Scarabs with soul reapers

2x5 Rubrics with Icon of Flame

9 Rubrics with Flamers and Icon

3 Tzaangor Enlightened

2x5 Spawn

 

I was running 3x3 Englightened but i felt even for a throw away unit they died to a slight breeze. For sligthly less points i could get 4 spawn which have more toughness, wounds, better attacks and only loose a 5++

 

I have been deeply dissapointed with the flamer rubrics. You look at them and think 8D6 auto hitting S6 AP-2 flamers should kill a unit....eh, it does on average 7/8 wounds to a dreadknight. I played a game today vs another thousand sons player and i magaed to get the jump on his rubrics (1 10 man unit and 1 5 man unit) and i lost that fight.

 

The infernal master is in a super odd position. In some games he is useful and in others he is complete pants. I feel like his biggest problem is that he doesnt do much other than give out his 1 buff. He cant fight, cant shoot, and psychic is very medicore for a psychic army,

 

I know this is probably going to be super controversal, but i actually feel like they should have given the 4++ to scarab terminators. I feel like with the 4++ they are somewhat tanky, but without it they just die so easily. There is just so much damage 3 out there, especially in combat. It would also have made the units slightly more varied. I pretty much feel that in every list you will see a big unit of terminators just because they need the buffs.

 

I played against magnus today...he died turn 1. I feel he can either be super oppressive or (as in today) he killed some spawn and then died.

 

How are you guys finding the new codex?

 

 

Anway I have a question.

Can things like asupex scan be used on units that arrive outside the reinforcement stage? I was under the opinion that it could, my opponent said it couldn't.

[Mushkilla]

If you haven't already I'd recommend checking out our community's cabal's Book of Magnus. The knowledge in there has mostly been gained with experience rather than theory hammer so it's very practical. We also discuss lists that place well in tournaments.

 

To answer your question:

 

 

REPOSITIONED AND REPLACEMENT UNITS

Some rules enable units to teleport or else be repositioned and set back up on the battlefield. Other rules enable units to removed from the battlefield and be replaced by a new, full-strength unit, which is then set up on the battlefield. If a rule causes a unit to be removed from the battlefield and subsequently set back up, the following rules apply to it:

 

1. Rules that are triggered by or apply to units that are ‘set up on the battlefield as Reinforcements’ are also triggered by and apply to that unit when it is set up on the battlefield.

 

...

So yes you can use Auspex Scan/Inescapable Forewarning (they have the same wording) on units that arrive outside the reinforcement step as they both fall under the REPOSITIONED AND REPLACEMENT UNITS rare rule section.

 

Interestingly Grey Knights don't have an Auspex Scan equivalent.

 

EDIT: Some thoughts on warpflamer rubrics.

 

I'm not a fan of "flamer bomb" style units. It leads to mismanaged expectations. For the record I only run rubrics with flamers. I run a mixture of 1-2 squads of 10 and 4-5 squads of 5. The squads of 10 are not throwaway units. They tend to come out in the later turns when there's a lot less that can threaten them and mop up. The point of flamer units is not that they will kill a unit is that they have the potential to and are faster than regular rubrics cause they can advance and shoot.

 

If you are going to throw them away. In your example above doing 7-8 wounds to a dreadknight is enough, because that rubric squads should have opened with doombolt with malevolent charge followed by a great sorcerer malefic scroll smite for 6+d3 MW.

 

Still I prefer to use them to play the mission and project threat. Their resilience and access to overwatch and inescapable forewarning make them great at taking/holding objectives.

Edited September 25, 2021 by Mushkilla

[Xenith]

 

 

I have been deeply dissapointed with the flamer rubrics. You look at them and think 8D6 auto hitting S6 AP-2 flamers should kill a unit....eh, it does on average 7/8 wounds to a dreadknight. I played a game today vs another thousand sons player and i magaed to get the jump on his rubrics (1 10 man unit and 1 5 man unit) and i lost that fight.

 

I think 7/8 wounds to an NDK is great for flamer rubrics, considering it's not the ideal target! As mush says, 7 wounds +5 from a malefic scroll smite and malevolent charge should kill it off. 

 

The infernal master is in a super odd position. In some games he is useful and in others he is complete pants. I feel like his biggest problem is that he doesnt do much other than give out his 1 buff. He cant fight, cant shoot, and psychic is very medicore for a psychic army,

 

I know this is probably going to be super controversal, but i actually feel like they should have given the 4++ to scarab terminators. I feel like with the 4++ they are somewhat tanky, but without it they just die so easily. There is just so much damage 3 out there, especially in combat. It would also have made the units slightly more varied. I pretty much feel that in every list you will see a big unit of terminators just because they need the buffs.

 

Agree on both counts. I actually mailed GW to say SOT not getting a 4++ seems an oversight - Blightlords got the 4++ as they had cataphractii plate, and had M4" as part of that. In 9th, they lost the penalty for cataphractii, but gained the bonus. SOT's get a 6++ from tartaros armour (boosted to 5++ from Tzeentch), but had the same movement as base rubrics in 8th (5"), reflecting tartaros didnt effect movement. In 9th, SOT's dont get the save bonus for heavier TDA, but they lost the movement bonus from having lighter TDA. 

 

Infernal master is weird also. I use him as a psychic action caddy with seeker of shadows. 

 

[Mushkilla]

 

The codex i feel is in a slightly wierd position. I deffinetly do not think that thousand sons are OP or even top tier competive. I my opinion admech, drukhari and sisters are at the top, followed by grey knights, deathguard, and certain very specific custodies and ork builds. However, i do think that thousand sons do well against some of these armies (specifically admech, deathguard and perhaps drukhari).

 

I'm starting to think we are somewhere between Sisters and Deathguard. Personally, I think we are better than GK and Deathguard. But maybe that's because I've found those match ups are favourable to us.

 

I think a big part of why Thousand Sons are perceived to not be that great is we are an army that is all about winning on primary. Recently, it's been fashionable to play lists that sit on 2 objectives, trade units and win on secondaries (sisters, deathguard, drukhari and admech play like this). You can definitely win games with that style of play with thousand sons, but I feel overall it underperforms. So far almost every one of my games I've outscored my opponent on primaries. We can go after our opponents home objectives with our mobile obsec units. Conversely, it's hard for them to take our objective. Those lists mentioned above (apart from admech) tend to have very few objective secure units.

 

Focus on making the primary score 15-5,15-10 or 10-5 every turn. 

[Ahzek451]

IMHO thousand sons are finally in a spot where they need to be. When I personally find things I wish I could change, I recognize they are nitpicks more than anything. Minus the idea that our codex could use more unique models/units.

 

We are a finesse army. A codex with no apparent build that someone could copy and paste and run with a minimal amount of effort. Granted, I am not saying that running some of the top admech and drukhari lists are without effort. It takes a lot of memorization and timing. Ours is different. And because of this, thousand sons are an illusion, giving off the impression that we are mid-tier(or slightly mid upper), but in the hands of a seasoned expert thet knows how to play the board...might get results that will see things like "your army is broken and overpowered". But in the hands of the average player, seems moderate to weak. Now, the same could be said with any army to an extent. But not really. The most seasoned genestealer cult player will still struggle to compete for top table. With us, all the tools we need to be top table are available just not always apparent. The writer of this codex is either a genius for gifting us with the subtle amount of possibilities or it is a complete happy accident. I would hazard a geuss it's the latter. Either way. The playstyle is deceiving to most, and an absolute surgical nightmare weapon for those that know how to navigate the crystal labyrinth.

 

I've been wishing for this codex to be like this for years.

[Prot]

Welcome, and as Mushkilla pointed out, please check out that thread if you haven't already. I'm personally pretty vocal about being anti-theory hammer and the direction of that thread is actual game experience/feedback. Hopefully you get some ideas from there,  not to mention the discussion on top placing lists (recent).

 

I'm proud to say we have some very knowledgeable people here that I've also learned from, and the insight I've seen displayed here continues to improve my understanding of the codex!

 

I think the reason the Scarab Occult didn't get 4++ inherent is three fold: 1) that armour type has never had it, but the type that Blightlords use has historically had 4++. (Why GW pulled that 4++ from other armies that use the very same Cataphractii terminator armour is beyond me.) 2) With our ability to put a 4++ on a squad with psychic, if you took 3 squads of Scarabs, PLUS cast that power on something else, I think the cries from the internet would have GW nerfing 'something' into the ground. 3) Last edition we had some armies with just too much access to ridiculous invulns.....

 

I'm just guessing though. I could be very wrong about that, because there's certainly an argument for a 4++ inherent as well. BUT that said, if you asked me to choose pre-game between 4++ Scarabs, OR Obsec Scarabs... I'd take Obsec in almost every match up.

 

To me our placement in the hierarchy I think still remains to be seen. I don't like to judge any codex, until I see the next 2 or so codexes (GW to me still has a 'magic bullet' feel to their releases). I keep hinting I wouldn't be surprised if Black Templars have the ability to shut us down harder than SoB are capable of.

 

I will put out a bit of 'theory hammer' from myself, since I don't have a local GK player right now (I may build them up) I actually have to wonder if GK are a bad match up for us. The reason I say this is their assault capability is exceptional against us (Mortal Wounds) and I've seen a LOT of batreps and TS seem to lose a staggering amount of those. (Of course this should be taken with a grain of salt).

 

Thousand Sons are definitely a codex with very obvious units. I don't think unit selection in a competitive environment will have a ton of variety... I just don't see it right now. But the depth in powers, Cabal plays, and execution is where the deep dive has to take place. There's a commitment here that I think (hope) that will prevent the band wagon crew from piling on. This isn't a codex for the feint of heart.

Edited September 25, 2021 by Prot

[jgascoine011]

Wow, i didnt expect so many responses.

 

With regards to scarabs getting the 4++, i think the thousand sons rule should have been everything gets a 5++ or increases 1 to invuns to a max of 4+.

 

Another thing i have been finding is just how CP hungry this army is. The other main army i play is death guard and i often find i rarely use most of my CP. But with TS i have been finding just how often i am using the new VotLW and sometimes the -1D strat. 

 

I dont think TS are stronger than GK or DG. I think TS should destroy DG though, but TS just have a lot more worse matchups than DG. However GK should beat TS. TS just dont really have an answer to tripple dreadknights and grandmaster dreadknights. That and there combat is just far superior to us.

[Mushkilla]

 

However GK should beat TS. TS just dont really have an answer to tripple dreadknights and grandmaster dreadknights. That and there combat is just far superior to us.

 

In theory it might be a bad match up, in practice it hasn't been (for me).

 

In my experience (admittedly a small sample set of 2 games against GK). I can beat GK by playing the primary. Are you running enough obsec and/or playing the primary aggressively enough? My current list has 40 rubrics and 5 scarabs and my games so far against GK have been mutual annihilation of both forces but with the sons coming out on primaries. 

 

I'm not alone.

 

The Thousand Sons list that won The Normal Blokes GT 2021 took on a 4 Dreadknight GK list in the final and the score was 91-45. He also defeated Sisters on the way.

 

Worth listening to this recap (the GK game is covered at about 33:30): 

https://thenormalblokespodcast.com/2021/09/21/episode-97-thousand-sons-win-the-tnb-gt/

 

Sons List:

https://downunderpairings.com/ArmyList.php?ArmyID=33931

 

GK List: 

https://downunderpairings.com/ArmyList.php?ArmyID=34478

 

Not to say your experience isn't valid, of course it is! It can still be a match up you, your list or your play style find challenging. That's perfectly ok. But, to say we don't have an answer to GK is a very broad statement. Which doesn't seem to be the case for all thousand sons list/players.

 

Hope that helps! 

 

 

TS just have a lot more worse matchups than DG

 

What have you found to be our bad matchups in practice? 

Edited September 26, 2021 by Mushkilla

[Cleon]

 

Interestingly Grey Knights don't have an Auspex Scan equivalent.

 

 

They do - it's a once per game ability you buy for 30 points so it's rubbish and you probably won't see it - but if you hit them like that a few times keep an eye out for the 'Omen of Incursion' vision.

[Xenith]

 However GK should beat TS. TS just dont really have an answer to tripple dreadknights and grandmaster dreadknights. 

 

Aside from Mush's comments above, TS are an elite army killer - native AP-2 on pretty much everything reaps a large toll, and you'd be surprised at the damage mass AP-2 can have on vehicles - especially if you can get +1S on your boltguns, +1 to wound from wrath/vengeance, or both (both are not spells so undeniable). A 10 man SOT unit will do ~7 wounds with bolters, 2 with SRC's, then another 2 with Hellfyres, essentially almost killing a T8 W12 tank like a Demolisher. If you managed to plink a wound off with smite, then you're laughing, you'll do even more if you can presage them or reroll 1's to hit from an Exalted.

Edited October 4, 2021 by Xenith

[Mordas]

I think TS are in a great place right now, but think if we had the 4++ on the Scarabs we hear OP screams everywhere. We can buff our units up amazingly well and All is Dust works great against so many armies still that it swings the games in TS favour massively.

 

For example today I was playing in my local clubs autumn league and had to fight the TS with my Necrons, All is Dust just completely nerfed all of my shooting to the point where I couldn't kill units before they teleported away to safety and the mortal wound output just utterly crushed my flanks.

 

All in all we are in a great place.

[Paladin777]

In all honesty it looks like the writers of the codex are big fans of the Sons. They were given a (comparatively) tiny list of units to play with and were told to make it balanced and interesting... and I'd say to a large degree they succeeded!

[Lucky_Lee]

In all honesty it looks like the writers of the codex are big fans of the Sons. They were given a (comparatively) tiny list of units to play with and were told to make it balanced and interesting... and I'd say to a large degree they succeeded!

I agree! As far as 9th goes and with inevitable power creep we are currently in a good spot.

 

We aren't meta breaking but we do gatekeep people who aren't ready for the TSons playstyle.

 

As long as we see some expansion content a year or so down the road I think we're good. Our only real disadvantage is the size of the thousand sons unit pool.

 

GKs get the same stuff other marine armies get and more. I think once 9th ed CSM hits the table we may even see a little soup. The rituals are very flavorful and cool but tbh we can play without them which makes me think daemon or csm soup my open up as viable down the road.

 

I'd still like dark mechanicus robots plz!

Edited October 19, 2021 by Xenoscry