Should Rules be free? How would YOU pay for yours?

[Special Officer Doofy]

I don't think having to buy a codex(es) and a main rulebook each edition is all that bad, editions should be a little longer though. But chapter approved should be digital and free like the FAQ, and all of those should be updated in the app/digital codexes. Trying to sell people their points update because they can't balance their own game is kind of pathetic.

[Dark Shepherd]

I don't think having to buy a codex(es) and a main rulebook each edition is all that bad, editions should be a little longer though. But chapter approved should be digital and free like the FAQ, and all of those should be updated in the app/digital codexes. Trying to sell people their points update because they can't balance their own game is kind of pathetic.

Will be very interesting to see/hopefully we will get another free points update this Christmas with them then printed in the next White Dwarf

 

The last Chapter Approved stung as there were next to no new points changes in it and the missions had barely changed at all, just some of the secondaries

[Orange Knight]

With 3D printing looming over GW's business model as an ever present sword of democles, we are seeing a drive towards toys, collectibles and IP partnerships (video games etc) so the age of GW supplying miniatures is likely numbered.

 

As such, they will be making their money from their rulesets going forward, if they want to carry on making games for us to play, much like source books for DnD.

 

I used to want free rules, but given GW is likely to stop making lots of miniatures one day, I'd rather the official game still existed so I actually would continue to pay for rules.

 

That's not to say I don't want a better system in place that is cleaner and with reduced bloat, of course I do.

3D printing isn't a threat to Games Workshop, in the same way that home kitchens and Restaurants can exist simultaneously, and how regular printers haven't put Magic or Pokemon cards out of business.

[Schurge]

I don't think rules /should/ be free... But it wouldn't be a bad thing either.

 

I like buying physical rulebooks, my issue is the staggered releases.

Edited September 26, 2021 by Schurge

[Panzer]

Considering how quickly rules become outdated via FAQ/Errata, DLC-like releases, little to no changes to the lore we already know from previous Codexes and new Codexes often cutting content like heraldry, colour schemes and similar that used to be in earlier versions for no other reason than perhaps page count ... I fear I gotta admit that I haven't officially bought a book in quite a while. Just not worth the money anymore.

Not to mention other companies are doing just fine with free rules without selling their miniatures at such a premium as GW.

 

So yeah I wasn't before but these days I'm firmly in camp free rules for warhammer.

[Doghouse]

I agree.

 

I've been burnt too many times with codex releases, especially that Space Marine release a few years back. I have stacks of the old ones dating back to Rogue Trader and for the most part is have been a cut and paste update for each edition. The only thing I look forward to now with them is snippets about new Successors.

[The Neverborn]

Ever since they stopped "veterans'" nights i've been going to clubs. In that time at least 50% of the players have obtained the  ruleset/codex from some other source than buying a codex from GW or one of its resellers. 

 

The codex/supplements is the easiest thing to obtain without paying for. 

 

So for a lot of people rules/codexs/supplements already are free.

Edited September 26, 2021 by Battle Brother Abderus

[Panzer]

Ever since they stopped "veterans'" nights i've been going to clubs. In that time at least 50% of the players have obtained the  ruleset/codex from some other source than buying a codex from GW or one of its resellers. 

 

The codex/supplements is the easiest thing to obtain without paying for. 

 

So for a lot of people rules/codexs/supplements already are free.

 

That's actually true as well. Making the rules free would probably be much less noticeable for GW than one might assume.

[tychobi]

Rules should be free in my opinion. Fan service is good for GW as well as the community. I would pay a small sub fee for a monthly updated with balance and faq living rules system that included all codecs. All the rules. In one place. Right now I feel foolish buying GW books. Out of date in 1 week and stuffed with regurgitated photos n fluff. Im burnt out. Also Battlescribe/ games-workshop provide what I need.

[Lord_Ikka]

GW will not make their rules free, they are too invested in making money off the game as well as the models, but I don't  think that is totally a bad thing. As far as rules go, I think it should be very simple- monthly/yearly subscription to get all the rules (no faction specific purchases needed). Use the app or Warhammer+ or whatever, but make the rules pure digital- that way anytime a FAQ comes down it is a simple process to update anything, from points to wording to keywords. There is no point for physical copies of rules that get invalidated by FAQs within two months, and I don't know anyone who actually likes carrying around the 3+ books they usually need to play a single army. 

 

I would pay 120 bucks to have a yearly subscription that gives me all my rules neatly able to go onto my tablet. 

 

Make the physical codices special, more fluffy and go full hardback with them. They will still sell, we have seen that there is a big market for any sort of "special edition" or hardback edition of fluff stuff. I know plenty of players who would by at least one special fluff codex of their main army, and probably more for their other armies.

Edited September 27, 2021 by Lord_Ikka

[Tipper]

The book costs are crazy, especially since they most aren’t full of rules. The core book especially. If they aren’t going to have them for free, then at least let me buy a $10 PDF that is just the rules. Being forced to pay for pictures and fluff that I already know is super annoying.

And then a codex, maybe 2 if you need a supplement. It’s honestly insane.

[MegaVolt87]

The codexes are a poor value prospect. They get invalidated by the next campaign supplement or FAQ, the art is mostly recycled and the lore barely changes in them if at all. The rules should move to the app for a nominal 15-20 bucks to use per faction codex + free revisions. My issue is I am left with a over priced dead tree of middening quality at best, wasting shelf space to get a digital code to use the app. Also the main rulebook shouldn't be tied to a monthly sub. Faction codex should switch to painting + modelling guides, new art and lore only in them. 

[Halandaar]

Lore, art and paint schemes etc being repeated/unchanged over many editions doesn't matter if it's your first time with a factions' Codex, so I'd argue the books as-is are still a good proposition for people starting an army that's completely new to them. It's really only veterans of the game that notice this issue. Same goes for the core rulebooks.

 

Acknowledging that GW would never go from their current model to free rules in a single swoop, how's these as a "step in the right direction" proposal:

• Codexes and Battletomes remain basically the same as they are now, with all the same content and even the same pricepoints.
• They come with a digital code for MyWarhammer (as now) which gives access to the rules in the app, but also a full digital version (epub/pdf) of the book.
• You can buy the digital version (including app access) directly from GW for a discount (approx 25%) if you don't want the physical book.
• Points changes are always free, and get automatically updated into digital versions along with FAQs and balance/rule changes.
• When a new edition of a Codex releases, people who registered the previous one in MyWarhammer get a voucher for 50% off the new one.

Benefits for players: More choice in how to obtain rules (physical, digital, both), less punitive pricing over time, less bookkeeping via integrated changes in the digital versions.

Benefits for GW: retains paid-for rules model, discount encourages direct sales rather than FLGS, discourages buying from second-hand market (because the code is an actual asset)

[Captain Idaho]

 

With 3D printing looming over GW's business model as an ever present sword of democles, we are seeing a drive towards toys, collectibles and IP partnerships (video games etc) so the age of GW supplying miniatures is likely numbered.

As such, they will be making their money from their rulesets going forward, if they want to carry on making games for us to play, much like source books for DnD.

I used to want free rules, but given GW is likely to stop making lots of miniatures one day, I'd rather the official game still existed so I actually would continue to pay for rules.

That's not to say I don't want a better system in place that is cleaner and with reduced bloat, of course I do.

3D printing isn't a threat to Games Workshop, in the same way that home kitchens and Restaurants can exist simultaneously, and how regular printers haven't put Magic or Pokemon cards out of business.

This is an interesting discussion to be had and I'll probably open up a new topic.

[Domhnall]

Disclaimer: I've not read the whole thread, just skimmed a few posts.

 

TLDR: business likes money, selling stuff makes money. irregardless if product gets used. Money! 

 

I've read a few suggestions on here for the rules: free, subscription, stay as they are, etc etc. I'm not arguing for or against any of these ideas, I'm just giving a perspective to consider from a company point of view, which also I will say I do not agree or disagree with. 

 

One thing I get the impression of, is that most of us here are considering that we "the community" is the largest part of GW's customer base. We probably are not. Probably only about half, or even less. I'd wager that a good portion of the remaining percentage of customer base, is young (or older) folk who are just getting into it, but will have moved onto another hobby by the time the next edition releases. 

A lot of the suggestions given would be a benefit to the long term player/collector such as a subscription or such. But how many parents are going to be willing to sink a years subsciption into something that they have a good inkling that their grots are not going to last the course of a year. Not everybody who starts 40k stays with 40k. When I tell folk I collect 40k I get a lot of people who comment "I used to do that when I was young". 

 

Free rules* sounds good, but doesn't benefit GW (the 'business company') all that much, as they then lose out on the income gained through selling to short termers. GW is a business first and foremost, so they need to sell products to get money. It doesn't matter if that product gets used constantly for the next 5 years, or a page never gets turned, it's money.

 

There are many reasons smaller companies can give away free rules, one such is that they are directly competing with GW. As a lot of people get started in the hobby with GW, so you need to entice people away to your own shiny happy game. What better way that free rules... Come on, try our game, have fun, look we even have our own miniatures to play with.

GW knows it's position as the 'premier' hobby game system (not saying the best, more the biggest), an entry point into the hobby at large. They aren't in the position they are in by giving stuff away for "free". 

 

* - Basic rules that are free can be a benefit as it gets people introduced and hopefully hooked on the hobby.

[The Neverborn]

Something that's already been mentioned.

 

But I can definitely imagine that sometime that rules only become available by GWs subscription service. Especially as I think they'll want to boost their subscribers from wherever that is.

 

So get ready for a 5, 10 or whatever a month cost for a ruleset. And the implications and incentives that will create on both sides.

 

Honestly I've always asked my hobby group if anyone plays kings of war, but most people are too invested in GW products.

 

I suspect this is the boom period of GW, but in 20 - 30 years.... subuteo anyone?

Edited September 27, 2021 by Battle Brother Abderus

[Beta galactosidase]

I guess I don’t understand the question. Rules are free. They’ve been free for over twenty years.

 

Then further in the OP mentions that there’s a cost to the business to design rules. No. The rules aren’t making anything new. When someone is in charge of deciding whether the base model of this year’s Taurus should have keyless entry that someone else invented, or if that should be only for the touring edition, that’s not producing anything.

 

The work of designing a tabletop war game called war hammer has already been done. It already exists. Printing it again with essentially a palette update does not mean that they’ve made something new.

 

There are plenty of fake jobs in the world. The person who is in charge of designing monster energy flavored Doritos, and Dorito scented fidget spinners, has the same job as designing ninth edition. Oh look, another dating app. Oh look, a multi-level marketing scheme where i convince people I went to high school with that they can be wargaming entrepreneurs with my simple plan for designing endless editions of warhammer and selling them to their friends.

 

 

Also whomstdve paid for rules?

[Chaplain Killmer]

I would like all the rules and stuff rolled into the subscription of Warhammer+ That would sort things for once and for all for me.

[Dark Shepherd]

Something that's already been mentioned.

 

But I can definitely imagine that sometime that rules only become available by GWs subscription service. Especially as I think they'll want to boost their subscribers from wherever that is.

 

So get ready for a 5, 10 or whatever a month cost for a ruleset. And the implications and incentives that will create on both sides.

 

Honestly I've always asked my hobby group if anyone plays kings of war, but most people are too invested in GW products.

 

I suspect this is the boom period of GW, but in 20 - 30 years.... subuteo anyone?

Google searches for Subuteo reach a ten year high now today :)

 

I do like the previous idea of a loyalty bonus for buying codices, even if its in the form of a voucher not a discount. Diverts some sales to their site rather than 3rd parties which is what GW seem to want

[Panzer]

Disclaimer: I've not read the whole thread, just skimmed a few posts.

 

TLDR: business likes money, selling stuff makes money. irregardless if product gets used. Money! 

 

I've read a few suggestions on here for the rules: free, subscription, stay as they are, etc etc. I'm not arguing for or against any of these ideas, I'm just giving a perspective to consider from a company point of view, which also I will say I do not agree or disagree with. 

 

One thing I get the impression of, is that most of us here are considering that we "the community" is the largest part of GW's customer base. We probably are not. Probably only about half, or even less. I'd wager that a good portion of the remaining percentage of customer base, is young (or older) folk who are just getting into it, but will have moved onto another hobby by the time the next edition releases. 

A lot of the suggestions given would be a benefit to the long term player/collector such as a subscription or such. But how many parents are going to be willing to sink a years subsciption into something that they have a good inkling that their grots are not going to last the course of a year. Not everybody who starts 40k stays with 40k. When I tell folk I collect 40k I get a lot of people who comment "I used to do that when I was young". 

 

Free rules* sounds good, but doesn't benefit GW (the 'business company') all that much, as they then lose out on the income gained through selling to short termers. GW is a business first and foremost, so they need to sell products to get money. It doesn't matter if that product gets used constantly for the next 5 years, or a page never gets turned, it's money.

 

There are many reasons smaller companies can give away free rules, one such is that they are directly competing with GW. As a lot of people get started in the hobby with GW, so you need to entice people away to your own shiny happy game. What better way that free rules... Come on, try our game, have fun, look we even have our own miniatures to play with.

GW knows it's position as the 'premier' hobby game system (not saying the best, more the biggest), an entry point into the hobby at large. They aren't in the position they are in by giving stuff away for "free". 

 

* - Basic rules that are free can be a benefit as it gets people introduced and hopefully hooked on the hobby.

 

That's a very simplified and short sighted view imo. About as short sighted as saying higher prices = earning more money. It completely ignores the aspect that free rules would likely lead to people easier joining the hobby and potentially staying for longer which would also increase the number of sold models and other forms of media/merch/gadgets.

[phandaal]

Would rather see less emphasis on Day One DLC and FAQs for the rules than free rules.

 

The idea of "we'll fix it when it launches" has already damaged the PC gaming market and seems to be creeping in to tabletop games as well now.

[Xenith]

GW will not make their rules free, they are too invested in making money off the game as well as the models, 

 

GW already provides basic rules for free online, and with every purchase of models comes the rules to use those models in a game. Advanced army rules and lore are in paid-for Codexes and warzone supplements. 

Edited September 27, 2021 by Xenith

[Domhnall]

 

Disclaimer: I've not read the whole thread, just skimmed a few posts.

 

TLDR: business likes money, selling stuff makes money. irregardless if product gets used. Money! 

 

I've read a few suggestions on here for the rules: free, subscription, stay as they are, etc etc. I'm not arguing for or against any of these ideas, I'm just giving a perspective to consider from a company point of view, which also I will say I do not agree or disagree with. 

 

One thing I get the impression of, is that most of us here are considering that we "the community" is the largest part of GW's customer base. We probably are not. Probably only about half, or even less. I'd wager that a good portion of the remaining percentage of customer base, is young (or older) folk who are just getting into it, but will have moved onto another hobby by the time the next edition releases. 

A lot of the suggestions given would be a benefit to the long term player/collector such as a subscription or such. But how many parents are going to be willing to sink a years subsciption into something that they have a good inkling that their grots are not going to last the course of a year. Not everybody who starts 40k stays with 40k. When I tell folk I collect 40k I get a lot of people who comment "I used to do that when I was young". 

 

Free rules* sounds good, but doesn't benefit GW (the 'business company') all that much, as they then lose out on the income gained through selling to short termers. GW is a business first and foremost, so they need to sell products to get money. It doesn't matter if that product gets used constantly for the next 5 years, or a page never gets turned, it's money.

 

There are many reasons smaller companies can give away free rules, one such is that they are directly competing with GW. As a lot of people get started in the hobby with GW, so you need to entice people away to your own shiny happy game. What better way that free rules... Come on, try our game, have fun, look we even have our own miniatures to play with.

GW knows it's position as the 'premier' hobby game system (not saying the best, more the biggest), an entry point into the hobby at large. They aren't in the position they are in by giving stuff away for "free". 

 

* - Basic rules that are free can be a benefit as it gets people introduced and hopefully hooked on the hobby.

 

That's a very simplified and short sighted view imo. About as short sighted as saying higher prices = earning more money. It completely ignores the aspect that free rules would likely lead to people easier joining the hobby and potentially staying for longer which would also increase the number of sold models and other forms of media/merch/gadgets.

 

 

Yeah I can't disagree with that comment. As I said, I don't agree or disagree with what I posted, just a perspective. Short sighted? Yes. Has it been working for them so far? Yes. They'll probably change if they need to change I'd say, but difficult to persuade the shareholders to try a new way of doing things if the current way still works. 

I personally think free basic rules are a good thing. Get people going so they can play the game, with basic lists for each army. Want to go further? That's when it starts to cost money.

I'm not entirely sold on the idea that it'll keep people in the hobby for longer though. There may be some that do yes, but on the whole, a lot of folks move onto something else eventually that isn't tabletop gaming. How many people do you know that own a guitar that they wanted to learn but has gathered dust for the past 10 years? (I have one, and still 'learning to play!') Same thing here unforunately, it's just a part of life finding what you truely enjoy. It's only us hopeless fanatics that stay for the long run 

 

Of course, I could be wrong! 

Edited September 27, 2021 by Domhnall

[Marshal Rohr]

I could totally be misremembering but don’t codexes lose GW money in terms of investment to return? Just because so many weenies pirate codexes. I might be conflating some Reddit buffoonery with truth here though. Edited September 27, 2021 by Marshal Rohr

[The Neverborn]

 

Something that's already been mentioned.

 

But I can definitely imagine that sometime that rules only become available by GWs subscription service. Especially as I think they'll want to boost their subscribers from wherever that is.

 

So get ready for a 5, 10 or whatever a month cost for a ruleset. And the implications and incentives that will create on both sides.

 

Honestly I've always asked my hobby group if anyone plays kings of war, but most people are too invested in GW products.

 

I suspect this is the boom period of GW, but in 20 - 30 years.... subuteo anyone?

Google searches for Subuteo reach a ten year high now today

 

I do like the previous idea of a loyalty bonus for buying codices, even if its in the form of a voucher not a discount. Diverts some sales to their site rather than 3rd parties which is what GW seem to want

 

 

 

I would like all the rules and stuff rolled into the subscription of Warhammer+ That would sort things for once and for all for me.

 

What GW is to increase their revenue.

 

I'm sad to say that Chaplain Killmer, you'll probably get your wish sooner rather than later. It's just a too obvious way to get there "recurring user spending/subscription" model off the ground. 

 

Assuming your only goal isn't access to all the codices while said subscription is active, I think you me and everyone else will rather swiftly find out that it doesn't sort things once and for all.