Should Rules be free? How would YOU pay for yours?

[Malios]

If I was to get back into 40k with my Blood Angels, the codex, rulebook, blood angels supplement, chapter approved and mission pack would cost me $383AUD.

 

$383 dollarydoos. And that's before models are purchased.

 

For $383 dollarydoos I can purchase multiple 300 point armies for Infinity with all necessary tokens and markers, or even an entire Infinity Sectorial. And the rules are free on their Army app. And I can use whatever bases I want and whatever terrain I want.

 

For $383 dollarydoos I can purchase two mega army collections for Kings of War which includes the rulebook. And use whatever bases I want. And use whatever terrain I want.

 

For $383 dollarydoos I could almost purchase two ready to go starter armies for Bolt Action with the rules included.

 

For $383 dollarydoos I could purchase two complete themed Malifaux gangs. Once again their rules are free on their App. And I can use whatever bases I want. And use whatever terrain I want.

 

For $383 dollarydoos I can purchase two fairly well rounded ASOIAF armies. Once again, the rules are free on the app.

 

Hell, for $383 dollarydoos I could purchase an Infinity Action Pack with a 300 point sectorial army ready to go and commission Angel Giraldez to paint them to a tabletop standard for me.

 

Even Kill Team has a $257AUD buy in just for rules, tokens and tools before models get involved. That's the price of a Bolt Action Army and your choice of tank.

 

Yes its a case of comparing apples to oranges in a market full of fruit... But thats why I think rules should be free, or a quarter of the price they are now. Its one of the reasons I walked away from 40k (persisting here coz I'm awestruck by the hobby blogs and keeping my foot in the IP with Necromunda)

Edited November 3, 2021 by Malios

[Imren]

If I was to get back into 40k with my Blood Angels, the codex, rulebook, blood angels supplement, chapter approved and mission pack would cost me $383AUD.

Yes, you could pay 383 AUD to buy those paper books from GW, or you could pay 110 AUD for the core rulebook and get battlescribe and still play 40k. Not only do you not have to haul tonnes of rulebooks with you*, you also dont need to keep track of updates and FAQs (battlescribe does that for you for free).

 

*(Just print to pdf the list you build including all the applicable special rules for the included units in the list as a reference during play, all rules are written in battlescribe with references to source).

Edited November 3, 2021 by Imren

[Firedrake Cordova]

I’m not sure, as a base pay that seems low converted to US dollars, but I’m also not sure if that means that’s the only pay they can get and if it’s exclusive of any other monies they can earn.

Yeah, it does sound low, although it should be caveated that it was a couple of years ago (Necromunda came out in what, 2017? and Titanicus in 2018?), and they've increase pay since then, so it's a little out of date. Having said that, salaries are low in the UK compared to the US (current median salary is £31,500 - or about $42,000; certainly, salaries for my industry are substantially higher in the US).

Edited November 3, 2021 by Firedrake Cordova

[Domhnall]

 

I’m not sure, as a base pay that seems low converted to US dollars, but I’m also not sure if that means that’s the only pay they can get and if it’s exclusive of any other monies they can earn.

Yeah, it does sound low, although it should be caveated that it was a couple of years ago (Necromunda came out in what, 2017? and Titanicus in 2018?), and they've increase pay since then, so it's a little out of date. Having said that, salaries are low in the UK compared to the US (current median salary is £31,500 - or about $42,000; certainly, salaries for my industry are substantially higher in the US).

 

 

Unfortunately, it does sound about right. I've taken this from a website (and a couple others say about the same).

 

Game Designer:

Salaries for entry-level positions, such as a junior/intern, typically range from £17,000 to £18,000.

Salaries for quality assurance (QA) tester roles, another common way into games design, are approximately £18,000 to £22,000.

Level designers can expect to earn in the region of £20,000 to £35,000.

The average salary for a game designer is £30,000, although you can earn up to £45,000. As a senior game designer you could earn up to £65,000.

 

And this is for PC/video games game designers, which would probably be comparable as well to table top games. 

So it's not so much a point of "GW pay their game designers poorly", it's more a point that GW pay their game designers the 'going rate' for game designers, and the going rate is poor. 

 

From this website: https://www.prospects.ac.uk/job-profiles/game-designer

 

 

ON TOPIC:

As for the quality of the rules, I don't think anybody goes out to intentionally create 'bad' rules. What can happen, and I think may be the problem GW have, is that rules can be released that haven't been tested fully, and only after release do people find the broken area, either overpowered units, rules that don't work well, or simply makes a whole part of your army effectively worthless. 

No set of rules is every going to be perfect, for many reasons. Online games do get around this by constant updates, nerfing overpowered things, buffing things that are underpowered. Rules as a subscription would make this feasible, as you could keep on top of 'the meta' as it were as an ongoing process. 

[Firedrake Cordova]

So it's not so much a point of "GW pay their game designers poorly", it's more a point that GW pay their game designers the 'going rate' for game designers, and the going rate is poor. 

It's a phenomenon that's very common in areas that lots of people want to work in (working with animals, video games, etc.)

 

What can happen ... is that rules can be released that haven't been tested fully, and only after release do people find the broken area, either overpowered units, rules that don't work well, or simply makes a whole part of your army effectively worthless. 

There's also the possibility that they do a fair amount of play-testing, but that the play-testers have a similar mindset or attitude to the game as the games developers, so they won't necessarily pick up issues. For example, if the games developer tended towards "narrative, beer & pretzels" gaming, and got their gaming group of likeminded individuals to try out their rules, they're unlikely to find issues that a "competitive" player would find.

[Halandaar]

There's also the possibility that they do a fair amount of play-testing, but that the play-testers have a similar mindset or attitude to the game as the games developers, so they won't necessarily pick up issues. For example, if the games developer tended towards "narrative, beer & pretzels" gaming, and got their gaming group of likeminded individuals to try out their rules, they're unlikely to find issues that a "competitive" player would find.

 

Just to grab on this point, it's been explicitly stated by some of the playtesters (specifically Tabletop Tactics) that sometimes after they've tested the draft rules, GW makes changes and those changes simply go to print, they don't get re-tested. For example, a bunch of people asked TTT whether they told GW that Dark Lances were too strong, and they said no because (paraphrasing slightly) "they weren't like that when we tested them". So it's not so much that playtesters see the game the same way GW do, it's that GW actively ignores feedback or in some cases just makes changes that aren't externally playtested at all.

[Malios]

Yes, you could pay 383 AUD to buy those paper books from GW, or you could pay 110 AUD for the core rulebook and get battlescribe and still play 40k. Not only do you not have to haul tonnes of rulebooks with you*, you also dont need to keep track of updates and FAQs (battlescribe does that for you for free).

 

*(Just print to pdf the list you build including all the applicable special rules for the included units in the list as a reference during play, all rules are written in battlescribe with references to source).

Hahaha. Touchè about the battlescribe friend. Well played.

 

I'm surprised GW's legal team haven't tried to crush battlescribe yet again since the 40k, AoS and Warhammer+ apps went live. They cease and desisted pretty much everything else.

Edited November 3, 2021 by Malios

[Halandaar]

Hahaha. Touchè about the battlescribe friend. Well played.

I'm surprised GW's legal team haven't tried to crush battlescribe yet again since the 40k, AoS and Warhammer+ apps went live. They cease and desisted pretty much everything else.

 

 

As I understand it, they can't because Battlescribe itself doesn't actually contain any GW data. It's just a general platform that users have to import their own data in to, and the data for 40k is decentralised/crowdsourced.

[Ielthan]

I would like all the rules and stuff rolled into the subscription of Warhammer+ That would sort things for once and for all for me.

Hang on it's not? I legitimately thought that was the main draw of it, is that a separate app that you pay for on top of it?

So are people just paying for these poorly animated shows?

 

I think paying for the rules is a tricky one, on one hand its a very hard sell to children, who on very limited budgets of pocket money (assuming there are kids who can still buy warhammer with pocket money, unlikely I know), kids will just choose models over rules every time unless they get them in a starter box. I remember holding off on buying the WFB rulebook for a long time because it seemed really expensive, and you know, more swordmasters. I think I even bought the army book before the main rule book because it was about my army (and only cost £10 iirc).

 

On the other hand they do cost money to make, and for me at least the art work in the books was a huge factor in really getting me into the hobby. The artwork the studio produced back before the sales team took over was truly exceptional, so around 2nd/3rd/4th edition 40k.

 

Now I do see the advantage of an app that just has everything for a subscription cost, it makes massively more business sense, allows a lot more flexibility in updating rules and frees them from the codex/edition cycle as they can make small incremental changes, which ideally would mean much better balance too (unfortunately unlikely as this is still gw...).

 

The move to subscription services has been so enormously successful for Microsoft, Adobe & Autodesk in the professional space it's hard to not see GW really pushing this very hard. I can definitely see a point where physical army books are no longer published. Long term it also means reduced box sizes, a more efficient production line.

A shame for us older gamers who like the object of a beautiful book, but for todays kids and teenagers maybe that is just a total non issue.

 

Personally I prefer the book model, but when the books were done well, and could actually last more than a few years without you then needing to buy supplement after supplement. The number of books you need now is kind of ridiculous, so imagine telling a parent they need to spend £100+ on books for their kids to use the incredibly expensive toys made from 50p of plastic, or instead £5 a month with the first month free that they can cancel any time (also gives them more control over their kids hobby) that will give them access to absolutely everything.

Edited November 3, 2021 by Ielthan

[Inquisitor Eisenhorn]

Personally I prefer the book model, but when the books were done well, and could actually last more than a few years without you then needing to buy supplement after supplement. The number of books you need now is kind of ridiculous, so imagine telling a parent they need to spend £100+ on books for their kids to use the incredibly expensive toys made from 50p of plastic, or instead £5 a month with the first month free that they can cancel any time (also gives them more control over their kids hobby) that will give them access to absolutely everything.

 

This is honestly my preference as well, but with the specific contents of the books being more about lore, campaigns and artwork rather than a tax on getting a few rules profiles updated.  Just put the profiles online already.  Paid rules should give you things to DO with your army.

 

I think that the biggest problem that 40k has had for several editions is simply edition churn.  There is around 2-3 years between editions for the last 4 editions, and that's crazy for a game this complex!

[Jings]

The thing is, the game (often) sells the miniatures, and the miniatures make the money. The margins on the models themselves are steep, particularly once they've recouped the mould costs, so the price for the rules themselves (if released online) could comfortably be included in the model production costs, or even better - marketing. 

 

Codices should be lore, stories and modelling guides at this point, rather than a be-all-end-all compendium (particularly given the "supplement" and "expansion" systems they're rolling out). The only people I've ever played with that used a codex over Battlescribe are people who haven't used Battlescribe. The core rule book is for sure a differnet animal and should continue, but the rules for armies themselves should just be released with 'update patches' for new releases to allow more frequent updates to a more diverse range of factions. 

[Ielthan]

 

Personally I prefer the book model, but when the books were done well, and could actually last more than a few years without you then needing to buy supplement after supplement. The number of books you need now is kind of ridiculous, so imagine telling a parent they need to spend £100+ on books for their kids to use the incredibly expensive toys made from 50p of plastic, or instead £5 a month with the first month free that they can cancel any time (also gives them more control over their kids hobby) that will give them access to absolutely everything.

 

This is honestly my preference as well, but with the specific contents of the books being more about lore, campaigns and artwork rather than a tax on getting a few rules profiles updated.  Just put the profiles online already.  Paid rules should give you things to DO with your army.

 

I think that the biggest problem that 40k has had for several editions is simply edition churn.  There is around 2-3 years between editions for the last 4 editions, and that's crazy for a game this complex!

I did think about that, like just have free rules in the box with the models and online (they need the rules to come out simultaneously with the models for ip law purposes, otherwise it leaves them open to the chapterhouse saga again), and then just have lore, art and modelling stuff in the books (scratch built terrain please! a skill that seems to have disappeared from newer gamers sadly. No, kitbashing isn't the same thing!).

 

However that raises the question, how much would that actually sell? GW have done hobby focused books in the past, and while some were excellent I don't think they shifted that many of them.

[Ielthan]

The thing is, the game (often) sells the miniatures, and the miniatures make the money.

 

I think while that's true for more established hobbyists/gamers and competitive players, it isn't true for new customers, for them it's usually about the models. Stock analysts will be looking for a growing user base more than they look for increased monetisation. Edited November 3, 2021 by Ielthan

[Inquisitor Eisenhorn]

 

The thing is, the game (often) sells the miniatures, and the miniatures make the money.

I think while that's true for more established hobbyists/gamers and competitive players, it isn't true for new customers, for them it's usually about the models. Stock analysts will be looking for a growing user base more than they look for increased monetisation.

 

 

@jings:  Exactly.  GW uses their models to sell their rules, rather than using their rules to sell their models!

 

@ Ielthan:  Also exactly right.  How many people go into a GW store for the first time and say "what a cool looking rule book, what models on the shelves and tables here do I need to use it?" 

[Imren]

 

 

The thing is, the game (often) sells the miniatures, and the miniatures make the money.

I think while that's true for more established hobbyists/gamers and competitive players, it isn't true for new customers, for them it's usually about the models. Stock analysts will be looking for a growing user base more than they look for increased monetisation.

 

 

@jings:  Exactly.  GW uses their models to sell their rules, rather than using their rules to sell their models!

 

@ Ielthan:  Also exactly right.  How many people go into a GW store for the first time and say "what a cool looking rule book, what models on the shelves and tables here do I need to use it?" 

 

I don't know how kids reason today about this, but when I was a kid back in the 90's (a time without internet and widespread use of mobile phones) the main way of getting involved with warhammer was the game, yes, the minis where cool (some still are :)) but it was the games and that was the main diver for most of my circle of warhammer-friends. And one among us had talent for painting and "taught" us how it was done so that we could get our armies painted up for our games and tournaments.