The Sanguinor should be changed to a Lord of War

[Helias_Tancred]

He should be our sole Lord of War unit and have stats and abilities that are Primarch-like or Primarch-lite (as compared to Guilliman for example).

 

I mentioned something like this on here a couple years ago I think?  I've felt this way for several years now because as it stands we will never get a primarch (even though we will all be retired by the time more are released for 40k), and he is depicted in our previous codexes and Black Library novels as being very powerful and definitely more unique than an HQ model would allow. There are other characters in 40k (Gazghul Thraka, Guilliman, Vahl, etc) that were made Lord of War characters, and given who he is and how he is depicted in the setting he should have been one of them.

 

I'm not a 40k stats and mechanics guru by any stretch so I'll rely on players more experienced at that to suggest the details, but he should be our Lord of War model and have stats in line with that designation.

 

Since its free to dream and discuss, I'm curious what you would suggest his stats & abilities should be as our sole Lord of War unit? Or maybe you just can't get behind this suggestion? That's cool too, I'd like to hear you out.

 

 

 

 

[Karhedron]

I would definitely like to see the Sanguinor get a serious buff, preferably accompanied by a new model. Something along the lines of the Lord Celestant Prime from AoS might look good.

 

[Panzer]

That has been my opinion for a long time now but it doesn't look like GW wants to give BA proper centerpiece models. Mephiston is another character that should be much stronger than he currently is and they could do a lot for Dante as well. So far everything has been rather underwhelming and I don't see that changing anytime soon unfortunately.

[BloodyB]

I agree, the goldenboi is practically an Imperial Daemon Prince for Emperor's sake! When I get the Guilliman model that comes with Imperium, I'm doing a conversion... For so long has the Sanguinor been depicted as this Greater Daemon shredding melee beast, but every time I put him on the field, I kind of struggled to make him worth it.

 

If we can't have a primarch, at least give us a bootleg version.

[Halandaar]

There are other characters in 40k (Gazghul Thraka, Guilliman, Vahl, etc) that were made Lord of War characters, and given who he is and how he is depicted in the setting he should have been one of them.

 

I feel like you're conflating the Lord of War unit designation and the Supreme Commander keyword; neither Morvenn Vahl nor Ghazkull are Lords of War (they're both HQs), but they are both Supreme Commanders.

 

If you look at the sorts of models in the game that actually are Lords of War: Mortarion, Necron Monolith, Ork Stompa, Magnus, Imperial Knight, Baneblades, Lord of Skulls; does the Sanguinor fit in that group? He doesn't really belong there, so should he be a Supreme Commander then? Again, I'd say no, the Sanguinor isn't a leader in any sense; if anybody in the BA Codex should have that keyword it's Dante. 

 

Now all this said, I absolutely agree he should get a big rules overhaul and a shiny new centrepiece model; he should be able to go toe-to-toe with Greater Daemons and look the part while doing it. But there's no reason for him to be a Lord of War, which doesn't do much except restrict how he can be used. His function is more similar to a C'tan shard really; outside the normal structure of an army, flies around chopping stuff up, appears and disappears seemingly at random. He could quite happily be an Elite choice.

[Majkhel]

Personally I'm most inclined to Halandaar's view. A C'tan shard is a nice comparison. Another one (perhaps even closer in nature) is St.Celestine.

For a BA LoW choice, I would much rather see Dante in his incarnation as Regent of Imperium Nihilus

Edited September 27, 2021 by Majkhel

[Charlo]

Yeah he's more like a C'tan shard, excellent comparison.

[BloodyB]

Personally I'm most inclined to Halandaar's view. A C'tan shard is a nice comparison. Another one (perhaps even closer in nature) is St.Celestine.

For a BA LoW choice, I would much rather see Dante in his incarnation as Regent of Imperium Nihilus :D

I'm not saying I disagree with the idea of The Sanguinor being more similar to a big beating stick, rather than a skilled and inspirational leader, but I think The Sanguinor is just a little more... Wow? Is that the tone Iwant to convey?

 

For me a Lord of War has to be a staggering model that, even when it is relatively small, looms large on the battlefield, and the lore needs to read the same. Guilliman isn't massive, but stands out as surely as any Baneblade or Knight, partially because he is substantially more special than Tactical Marine #47 does, and partly because every 40k player knows he is so much more than almost any other model available, only a small handful of 40k models adequately match the storied history of the Avenging Son. Even a Chapter Master as storied as Commander Dante isn't quite there for me.

 

The Sanguinor isn't 'just' a living legend, but an actual legend 10,000 years old; an echo of the most beloved Primarch, a light of such purity that even the loss of the guiding light of the Astronomicon is offset. An effigy given life by the dual sacrifices of Sanguinius' death, and Azkeallon's grief at outliving his Primarch in spite of his duty to protect him.

 

I'm not saying Commander Dante is undeserving of his title,or that I would reject a new, fancy model, but I do feel if I had to pick one for an upgrade to true Lord-of-Wardom, I couldn't help but pick the Sanguinor.

[Spagunk]

I'm conflicted. On the one hand, Dante should be a LoW because he should now be able to pull from and lead multiple Imperial armies just as Guilliman is. But on the other hand, I do want to field the guy regularly because he's cool. Not that we lack any HQ choices but maybe they have 2 modes for the guy? One LOW and One Chapter Master? Really don't know how to fix.

 

However I can see just cause for making Sanguinor the HQ and Dante the LoW based on fluff. Sanguinor helps out at squad/battalion level routinely so most likely going to be on smaller scales just based on his normal behavior. This could give Dante the room to be unique rather than waffle between two similar, albeit slightly different roles. Maybe this could even give room for Captain Karlean to appear as an actual character?

Edited September 27, 2021 by Spagunk

[Blindhamster]

Bit of a tangent but on that note, how would people feel if Dante stepped down as chapter master of the blood angels (karlean taking his place as his original intended protege died on Armageddon). Dante becomes like guilliman and has benefits for all imperial armies but some extra for blood angels and their successors, gets a model like lots of people have talked about showing him with some staff and becomes a beat stick when wounds drop low enough. Karlean gets the primaris treatment and we get a new chapter master with some unique fancy bits.

 

Sanguinor I would make sense as a lord of war greater demon style thing though, yeah

[Helias_Tancred]

Good points brought up.

 

I definitely feel that The Sanguinor should be stronger than Commnder Dante, for reasons already stated by some here. I do find the idea of Dante being a Chapter Master+, with Karlaen stepping up as the new chapter master very interesting. I don't know if GW would ever be bold enough to do that? They often take the safe less risqué route.

[Tokugawa]

None of Daemon prince/Greater daemon/Celestine/Ctan shard which you mentioned, is actually LoW. A living thing in LoW slot need to be at primarch level.

[Panzer]

 

The Sanguinor isn't 'just' a living legend, but an actual legend 10,000 years old; an echo of the most beloved Primarch, a light of such purity that even the loss of the guiding light of the Astronomicon is offset. An effigy given life by the dual sacrifices of Sanguinius' death, and Azkeallon's grief at outliving his Primarch in spite of his duty to protect him.

 

Not saying you're completely wrong, but you kinda need to read Darkness in the Blood. It reveals a lot about the nature of the Sanguinor, the Black Rage and Mephiston. 

 

None of Daemon prince/Greater daemon/Celestine/Ctan shard which you mentioned, is actually LoW. A living thing in LoW slot need to be at primarch level.

Well considering how the Sanguinor gets depicted slaying Greater daemons left and right while also supernaturally inspiring Blood Angels on the battlefield (and his true nature we learned of in Darkness in the Blood) I dare say he fullfills those requirements for a LoW. ;)

[Karhedron]

The problem is that both units are from the same Inspiring/Beatstick archetype. Maybe find ways to emphasize Dante's command experience while the Sanguinor handles the inspirational stuff?

 

Give Dante the old CM aura of full rerolls within 6" (or even 9"), not just one squad. That will help to emphasize that he is one of the most experienced commanders in the whole Imperium. Some CP Regen as well might help to reflect that. He should be good in combat but his real value should be as a force multiplier.

 

The Sanguinor should then be an absolute beast in combat and make all BAs within 6" immune to Morale. He should be the go-to unit to stop a Blood Thirster rampaging through your lines. Maybe give him the rule to cap the number of wounds he can take in any phase.

[Panzer]

The problem is that both units are from the same Inspiring/Beatstick archetype. Maybe find ways to emphasize Dante's command experience while the Sanguinor handles the inspirational stuff?

 

Give Dante the old CM aura of full rerolls within 6" (or even 9"), not just one squad. That will help to emphasize that he is one of the most experienced commanders in the whole Imperium. Some CP Regen as well might help to reflect that. He should be good in combat but his real value should be as a force multiplier.

 

The Sanguinor should then be an absolute beast in combat and make all BAs within 6" immune to Morale. He should be the go-to unit to stop a Blood Thirster rampaging through your lines. Maybe give him the rule to cap the number of wounds he can take in any phase.

 

Considering the background of the Sanguinor and Mephiston I'd also be fine if Dante would get an upgrade in form of a "merge" (really trying not to spoil anything here so apologies for not going into details to explain :sweat: ). Visually they are already very close anyway.