Fighting New Orks

[Bonzi]

I need some advice from the forums on this one. I just broke out my BA again after a long hiatus and I got crushed by the New Orks. I will say I was running a very weak list against a very tough Ork list (Squig Boss, X2 psyker killrig things, X3 dragster buggies, X3 jet buggies, Kommandos, and boys in trucks). I was tabled in the top of turn 4.

 

I expected to lose with my list, but after the game I thought about trying to write a better list but I'm spinning my wheels. No matter what I put together I can't escape the fact that the Orks seem to outmatch Blood Angels at every facet. Orks have better psykers and powers, better combat, better shooting honestly, more durability, more mobility. The only thing BA have better is strats. Ork strats are very situational and weaker, but that's not really an advantage.

 

I don't feel like I even matched him in melee until turn three when I turned on the assault doctrine, but at that point I only had three units left on the table so it was a lost cause.

 

What units or tactics would more practiced or effective BA players on this forum recommend to counter the new Orks?

Edited October 3, 2021 by Bonzi

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

…orks aren’t better at shooting or melee…orks have numbers sure, but mega nobz are not better than terminators, and they won’t out fight sanguinary guard.

VV with stormshields will likely own them.

[Majkhel]

What list are you contemplating?
You mentioned Assault Doctrine turned on on T3. So have you been using Saguinary Priest for putting units into Assault Doctrine earlier? You should imo. 
 

[Leonaides]

4 sanguinary guard in assault doctrine butchered 2 squads of space wolves (5man) and left ragnar on 2 wounds in 1 round of combat. Admittedly ragnar then killed them, but it left him very vulnerable to chainswording to death next turn.

 

Using the right tools and working our your acceptable trade-offs is critical for any army this edition.

[Bonzi]

4 sanguinary guard in assault doctrine butchered 2 squads of space wolves (5man) and left ragnar on 2 wounds in 1 round of combat. Admittedly ragnar then killed them, but it left him very vulnerable to chainswording to death next turn.

 

Using the right tools and working our your acceptable trade-offs is critical for any army this edition.

The trade-offs is the problem. The Orks had more models, for cheaper that were meeting or exceeding me in shooting, mobility, and close combat.

 

Yes, Blade Guard or Sanguard can butcher Orks, but they do it once to kill a throw away ten man squad worth a fraction of their points and then they're hung out to dry vs buggie shooting, or staggering mortal wounds generated by buggie squads on the charge. Blade Guard and Sanguard are also pointless vs the buggies because ramshackle reduces their damage by one per swing and each buggie had around 8 or 9 wounds. You can kill one and a half but again, you're trading at a losing rate.

 

The dragster buggies had 4D6 flamers each and a dakka 9 rivet cannon. I'm open for suggestions on what should charge a squad of 3 that does 12d6 flamers shots and 27 st 7 or 8, -2, D2 shots in overwatch.

 

The jet buggies shoot buckets of missiles that are St8 -2 3D and do D3 mortals each on the charge.

 

The killrigz are T8 and 16 wounds and have a lascannon that autohits and becomes D3 shots if the unit has cast a power in the players turn. Lost my last Dred to overwatch when I forgot about that little gem.

 

And all of them have ramshackle so anything less that St 8 is getting it's damage reduced like it's a Dred.

 

I lost a Gladiator, 2 Impulsors, and 5 dreads by turn 3 to a Goff list and ALL of it except 3 dreds was done in shooting vs an Ork clan that specializes in melee, not shooting. I had a forge master fixing things and a Libby putting psychic fortress out every turn and it didn't matter. Again, I was running a silly a weak list but I'm not seeing what will work in a serious list.

 

At this point all I can think that might work is onslaught and assault cannons, and Chainswords and thunder hammers (basically an 8th Ed style list because all our midstrength D2 weapons are garbage vs Orks.

[Paladin777]

Against -1 damage models lightning claws are your friend, just saying. I did the math against death guard (marines and plagueshroud termies) and TLC termies do more damage and remove more models than TH/SS termies whether charging or not.

 

Perhaps VV with SS/LC might be worth considering.

[Paladin777]

Also, if you can get your hands on some suppressors they could shut down that overwatch real quick as they merely need to hit for their special 'no overwatch for you' to trigger!

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

 

4 sanguinary guard in assault doctrine butchered 2 squads of space wolves (5man) and left ragnar on 2 wounds in 1 round of combat. Admittedly ragnar then killed them, but it left him very vulnerable to chainswording to death next turn.

 

Using the right tools and working our your acceptable trade-offs is critical for any army this edition.

The trade-offs is the problem. The Orks had more models, for cheaper that were meeting or exceeding me in shooting, mobility, and close combat.

 

Yes, Blade Guard or Sanguard can butcher Orks, but they do it once to kill a throw away ten man squad worth a fraction of their points and then they're hung out to dry vs buggie shooting, or staggering mortal wounds generated by buggie squads on the charge. Blade Guard and Sanguard are also pointless vs the buggies because ramshackle reduces their damage by one per swing and each buggie had around 8 or 9 wounds. You can kill one and a half but again, you're trading at a losing rate.

 

The dragster buggies had 4D6 flamers each and a dakka 9 rivet cannon. I'm open for suggestions on what should charge a squad of 3 that does 12d6 flamers shots and 27 st 7 or 8, -2, D2 shots in overwatch.

 

The jet buggies shoot buckets of missiles that are St8 -2 3D and do D3 mortals each on the charge.

 

The killrigz are T8 and 16 wounds and have a lascannon that autohits and becomes D3 shots if the unit has cast a power in the players turn. Lost my last Dred to overwatch when I forgot about that little gem.

 

And all of them have ramshackle so anything less that St 8 is getting it's damage reduced like it's a Dred.

 

I lost a Gladiator, 2 Impulsors, and 5 dreads by turn 3 to a Goff list and ALL of it except 3 dreds was done in shooting vs an Ork clan that specializes in melee, not shooting. I had a forge master fixing things and a Libby putting psychic fortress out every turn and it didn't matter. Again, I was running a silly a weak list but I'm not seeing what will work in a serious list.

 

At this point all I can think that might work is onslaught and assault cannons, and Chainswords and thunder hammers (basically an 8th Ed style list because all our midstrength D2 weapons are garbage vs Orks.

try VVs then. LC and SS. Buggy shooting won’t be an issue, and you get plenty of attacks in melee while being plenty fast…

Also have your own shooting units.

Don’t be trying put 90% of your points into melee focused units.

 

Some hellblasters, eradicators, inceptors or even heavy intercessors are good investment. Dreadnoughts bring melee capability and good shooting.

Edited October 3, 2021 by Inquisitor_Lensoven

[Leonaides]

Will whirlwind suppression fire work as well to shut down buggy overwatch? Can also pull duty on horde clearance if not needed to shut down overwatch.

[Bonzi]

Also, if you can get your hands on some suppressors they could shut down that overwatch real quick as they merely need to hit for their special 'no overwatch for you' to trigger!

I had three. They were garbage and got ate by 5 Ork Kommandos. Their overwatch suppression only works if they cause a wound to keyword INFANTRY.

 

The list that overran me barely engaged me with boyz, they're were all capping objectives and scoring secondaries while his squigboss, kill rigz, Kommandos and buggies walked over me.

 

I like the idea of lightning claws and storm shields. That's a good answer for a lot of the current meta. I'm a little bummed to trade out the Sanguinary Guard but a squad of VV with claws and a squad with hammers might be the answer.

 

 

What else have you guys used against the new Orks that you've found to work? I'm getting the feeling from the generic responses that some of you haven't played against the new Orks so you're not understanding how they play now.

Edited October 3, 2021 by Bonzi

[Paladin777]

Ok, I know you said your list was weak, but what did you actually bring?

 

I didn't realize that suppressors only shut down overwatch from infantry. I don't have any yet.

Edited October 11, 2021 by Paladin777

[Bonzi]

Primaris Techpriest: forgemaster, keeper of ancients, soulwarden, vox espiritum

 

Terminator Librarian: chief librarian, Librarian warlord trait: might of heros, null zone, psychic fortress

 

Librarian Dreadnought: shield of sang, quickening

 

X5 Incrsors

X5 Intercessors: assault bolters

X5 Assault Intercessors: thunder hammer

 

Deathco Dread

Furioso: frag cannon

Furioso: frag cannon

Venerable Dred: twin lascannon

X5 Bladeguard

 

X3 Suppressors

 

Gladiator: two Las, multimelta sponsors

 

Impulsor: skytalon array

Impulsor: skytalon array

 

I'm pretty sure that's the gist of it. Like I said, it wasn't a 'good' list. BA special dreds arnt great, tanks are generally a liability in this edition, and I wasn't really playing to any BA strengths so this list was probably a loss against most competent opponents. I didn't really lack for decent shooting or durability but the Orks walked over it. I'm less upset about the loss of this army than I am about the fact that BA stack up against the new Orks so poorly. Even if I had taken a good list I think I would have lost.

 

The Squig Boss with beastcloak and a crazy warlord trait ate the Death Dred in one go when I had given it might of heroes, a 5+ invuln, and boosted his FnP to a 5++. So 8W T8, 3+, 5++, 5+++ and -1 to all damage and he oneshotted it. It took two rounds from the Libby Dred and a round from a Furioso to take the Squigboss down and that was with buffs from strats, psychic, and the master of ancients aura being in effect and I still lost the Libby Dred too before I brought him down. That's a 140pt Ork HQ that's more durable than a knight and has better damage output than a smash captain.

Edited October 3, 2021 by Bonzi

[Karhedron]

Plasma Inceptors are really good vs Orks. Against squads of boyz, don't bother overcharging but as long as there are 6+ boyz in the target, each Inceptor will be getting 6 shots that hit on 3s and wound on 3s.

 

Against vehicles you can overcharge as S8 will bypass Ramshackle and still deal 2 Damage. Just keep a Captain nearby to keep those overheats under control. Add rerolls and/or Descent of Angels to further boost their killing power.

 

Defensively they can move pretty fast and chuck out their shots from 18" away so only fast units will be able to catch them in melee. Against shooting they are T5 3W and have access to the Gravis strat to give +1 save against 1D attacks. I normally run a squad of 5 Plasmaceptors. Without any buffs, they will kill on average 12 - 13 boyz with up to a 4+ save per volley. Overcharging they will put on average 10 wounds on a Killrig or a equivalent. Given that they should normally have at least a Captain with them, you should be able to do better than that.

 

Redemptors with HOGC and OGC will put a lot of damage out against Orks and can fight well in melee too. Razorbacks with dual Assault Cannons should make a dent too.

 

Against tough targets like those Kill Rigs, Eradicators or MM Attack Bikes are probably your best bet.

Edited October 3, 2021 by Karhedron

[Paladin777]

Wow, that list really is truly abysmal...

 

I think if you had a bit more internal synergy and things that were better suited to the match up (bolter inceptors, LC/SH VV's, a good captain instead of the tech priest, in general some more boys instead of toys) you would have likely been a bit happier with the match up.

 

Overall, your list seems to almost completely ignore the fact that blood angels are close combat specialists par excellence, specifically on the charge. Sure, you've got BGV's and assault intercessors, but only five of each. That's not going to get you very far (especially against the weight of fire that Ork's can put out!) and your HQ choices aren't exactly very killy either. Dreads are great, but they lack the weight of fire necessary against orks to be more than a flanking-type support unit. There also doesn't seem to be any internal cohesion.

 

I guess what I'm saying is that you've got your pudding, but you didn't eat your meat!

 

Throw another squad of troops down for more bodies (bonus points if it's heavy intercessors with heavy auto bolters. I think they'd do well here with their S5 shooting and T5 3W durability), consider dropping a couple dreads to add a full unit of VV's (or twin LC terminators or LC/SB relic terminators might be worth considering) and get yourself some good high Volume 1W shooting (redemptor dread with two AssCan's, bolter aggressors, inceptors, etc).

 

Lastly, get some aura abilities. Either a captain or lieutenant will boost the damage output of a squad by 16.6%, or 36% if both are around!

 

I hope this helps.

[Bonzi]

Yeah, I know the list did me no favors. Since 5th Ed I've wanted to try a BA Dredspam list because I have the models to do it but there's never been a good reason or way to take that many. The reason I didn't post it originally was because I didn't want people focused on that list and ways to 'improve' it. GW did BA dirty on almost all of our faction specific units except for Sang Guard and the Sang Priest so this list was mostly me dusting off the losers and putting them on the table. It was a list to play just for the heck of it. My bigger focus now is in what units I should be taking moving forward that will work against the new Ork book.

 

I think Inceptors and Heavy Intercessors are great ideas and I'm blending them into my new list. I haven't liked the Heavy Intercessors Because they're points heavy and not good for melee, but Orks are for sure shifting the meta to needing an answer for T5 troops.

[Paladin777]

And I get that you acknowledged that the list was bad. However, it's hard for us to help you tweak things if we don't know what you've got/ran.

 

In any case, while the T5 on the gravis units is definitely great, it's the W3 that really make them hard to shift. Suddenly 2D weapons lose 75% of their effectiveness. 3D weapons hurt like the dickens, but they are much fewer and further between.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

A general good rule is plasma and assault cannons/onslaught cannons are pretty good options.

Assault cannons keep your dreadnoughts cheap, and they throw out a lot of shots which means a lot of wounds in most cases

[Bonzi]

And I get that you acknowledged that the list was bad. However, it's hard for us to help you tweak things if we don't know what you've got/ran.

 

In any case, while the T5 on the gravis units is definitely great, it's the W3 that really make them hard to shift. Suddenly 2D weapons lose 75% of their effectiveness. 3D weapons hurt like the dickens, but they are much fewer and further between.

I have probably 10K points of BA. Quicker to list the things I don't have: Invader buggies, land speeders new or old, mini marine bikes, vindicators and predators. Everything else I have. Edited October 4, 2021 by Bonzi

[Bonzi]

My current new list I'm toying with is:

 

Primaris Chapter Master: sword & shield, CM relic, Rites of War, Gift of Foresight

 

Sanguinary Priest: chief apothecary, selfless healer, armor indomitus, jump pack

 

X5 Assault Marines

X5 Assault Marines

X5 Intercessors

 

Receptor Dreadnought: macro plasma, onslaught, storm bolters

Invictor Warsuit: incendium cannon

X5 Sang Guard: 1 power fist, swords

X5 Sang Guard: 1 power fist, swords

X5 Bladeguard: volkeit pistol

Company Champion: chapter champion, blade of triumph

 

X3 Outriders

X4 Inceptors: bolters

X3 Inceptors: plasma

 

It's a lot meaner and plays to BA strengths far better. I wish I had a second Redemptor, I'd like one plasma and one Gatling as my ranged backbone. I've got to dig through my Minimarine to see what I can field for vanguard...I'd like to flip one sang guard to claws or maybe hammer vets.

Edited October 4, 2021 by Bonzi

[Paladin777]

That's much better. I agree with you looking into claw/hammer vets for the second CC squad. Allows for target priority based on squads abilities.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

My current new list I'm toying with is:

 

Primaris Chapter Master: sword & shield, CM relic, Rites of War, Gift of Foresight

 

Sanguinary Priest: chief apothecary, selfless healer, armor indomitus, jump pack

 

X5 Assault Marines

X5 Assault Marines

X5 Intercessors

 

Receptor Dreadnought: macro plasma, onslaught, storm bolters

Invictor Warsuit: incendium cannon

X5 Sang Guard: 1 power fist, swords

X5 Sang Guard: 1 power fist, swords

X5 Bladeguard: volkeit pistol

Company Champion: chapter champion, blade of triumph

 

X3 Outriders

X4 Inceptors: bolters

X3 Inceptors: plasma

 

It's a lot meaner and plays to BA strengths far better. I wish I had a second Redemptor, I'd like one plasma and one Gatling as my ranged backbone. I've got to dig through my Minimarine to see what I can field for vanguard...I'd like to flip one sang guard to claws or maybe hammer vets.

looks better, by assault marines do you mean assault intercessors or assault squad?

 

When you put in a VV squad go claws and shield.

Maximize attacks for your melee troops, while making them more durable. They’ll tie up the really scary units in the enemy army, and put a decent number of wounds on it. If they all die, then it’s really easy to finish off the big scary with shooting or a less durable melee unit.

Edited October 4, 2021 by Inquisitor_Lensoven

[L30n1d4s]

A Gladiator Reaper (or two) might do well. Massed S6 AP-1 is kind of the ideal profile against a lot of different Ork targets, obviously including all their newly T5 infantry.

[Bonzi]

 

My current new list I'm toying with is:

 

Primaris Chapter Master: sword & shield, CM relic, Rites of War, Gift of Foresight

 

Sanguinary Priest: chief apothecary, selfless healer, armor indomitus, jump pack

 

X5 Assault Marines

X5 Assault Marines

X5 Intercessors

 

Receptor Dreadnought: macro plasma, onslaught, storm bolters

Invictor Warsuit: incendium cannon

X5 Sang Guard: 1 power fist, swords

X5 Sang Guard: 1 power fist, swords

X5 Bladeguard: volkeit pistol

Company Champion: chapter champion, blade of triumph

 

X3 Outriders

X4 Inceptors: bolters

X3 Inceptors: plasma

 

It's a lot meaner and plays to BA strengths far better. I wish I had a second Redemptor, I'd like one plasma and one Gatling as my ranged backbone. I've got to dig through my Minimarine to see what I can field for vanguard...I'd like to flip one sang guard to claws or maybe hammer vets.

looks better, by assault marines do you mean assault intercessors or assault squad?

 

When you put in a VV squad go claws and shield.

Maximize attacks for your melee troops, while making them more durable. They’ll tie up the really scary units in the enemy army, and put a decent number of wounds on it. If they all die, then it’s really easy to finish off the big scary with shooting or a less durable melee unit.

Assault Intercessors. I wish Assault Marines still filled a troop slot.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

 

 

My current new list I'm toying with is:

 

Primaris Chapter Master: sword & shield, CM relic, Rites of War, Gift of Foresight

 

Sanguinary Priest: chief apothecary, selfless healer, armor indomitus, jump pack

 

X5 Assault Marines

X5 Assault Marines

X5 Intercessors

 

Receptor Dreadnought: macro plasma, onslaught, storm bolters

Invictor Warsuit: incendium cannon

X5 Sang Guard: 1 power fist, swords

X5 Sang Guard: 1 power fist, swords

X5 Bladeguard: volkeit pistol

Company Champion: chapter champion, blade of triumph

 

X3 Outriders

X4 Inceptors: bolters

X3 Inceptors: plasma

 

It's a lot meaner and plays to BA strengths far better. I wish I had a second Redemptor, I'd like one plasma and one Gatling as my ranged backbone. I've got to dig through my Minimarine to see what I can field for vanguard...I'd like to flip one sang guard to claws or maybe hammer vets.

looks better, by assault marines do you mean assault intercessors or assault squad?

 

When you put in a VV squad go claws and shield.

Maximize attacks for your melee troops, while making them more durable. They’ll tie up the really scary units in the enemy army, and put a decent number of wounds on it. If they all die, then it’s really easy to finish off the big scary with shooting or a less durable melee unit.

Assault Intercessors. I wish Assault Marines still filled a troop slot.

ok just making sure.

[Majkhel]

Paladin made some excellent points!

Really happy to see you dropped the Gladiator and Impulsors and added the SangPriest.
Would you be able to get more axes into your SangGuard? Swords get kinda wasted against that low of armour save that orks have and Axes' strength bonus will do you wonders against their army-wide T5. 

About your original list - I still think the dread-spam could be fun and effective, but additional tanks were a definite hindrance more than anything else. I'd say that If you are taking more than 2 dreads, then you should take as many infantry as possible. And mean infantry at that.
 

One exception on the tanks could be the already-mentioned Whirlwind as it's strat can turn-off overwatch on ANYTHING it hits. Be it Boyz or Stompa.

Edited October 4, 2021 by Majkhel