Fighting New Orks

[Bonzi]

Played the updated list against a TSons list and it went very well with my opponent calling it at the top of 4. I was well on my way to a nearly 90pt game sans a few points on the oath of moment secondary. Plasma Inceptors and the Plasma Redemptor were absolutely clutch but MVP probably goes to the Warsuit whose turn one charge on the left flank tied up a Forgefiend and a Mutalith for 4 rounds of combat and gave me command of a whole flank.

 

This list had far better board control and there was no turn where I wasn't pushing my opponent back on his heels. I didn't have the juice to deal with his brick of 10 Scarab Terminators but I had the speed to kite them while I murdered the rest of his army. I don't think I could have bullied an Ork list the way I did the TSons, but I don't think I would have been routed either.

[brother_b]

So I just edited a negative post. I’ve been getting hammered by armies with better and more modern codexes. That being said there’s good advice here. Play to the army strengths, movement and melee. Lean heavily on sang guard and VVets.

 

Good luck.

Edited October 10, 2021 by brother_b

[Jolemai]

Negative posts are fine, so long as they are constructive (i.e not a whinge post) :tu:

[Morticon]

Negative posts are fine, so long as they are constructive (i.e not a whinge post) 

 

Bouncing off of this....

 

 

Wow, that list really is truly abysmal...

 

 

 

 

Some excellent subsequent comments and feedback, which is honestly appreciated - but please mind how comments like these are initially presented. 

 

Not everyone is experienced, and not everyone will have built to most effective and efficient combos from the outset. 

 

"truly abysmal" isn't something we like to see as feedback to develop a good, supportive community - it's just a little too abrasive. 

 

 

Not a warning- just a friendly heads up for all.  

[Paladin777]

 

Negative posts are fine, so long as they are constructive (i.e not a whinge post)

Bouncing off of this....

Wow, that list really is truly abysmal...

Some excellent subsequent comments and feedback, which is honestly appreciated - but please mind how comments like these are initially presented.

Not everyone is experienced, and not everyone will have built to most effective and efficient combos from the outset.

"truly abysmal" isn't something we like to see as feedback to develop a good, supportive community - it's just a little too abrasive.


Not a warning- just a friendly heads up for all.

The OP knew that the list was bad, and given the back and forth that we went through prior to that comment I thought it was acceptable. I apologize if that wasn't the case. Edited October 15, 2021 by Paladin777

[Xenith]

 

Also, if you can get your hands on some suppressors they could shut down that overwatch real quick as they merely need to hit for their special 'no overwatch for you' to trigger!

I had three. They were garbage and got ate by 5 Ork Kommandos. Their overwatch suppression only works if they cause a wound to keyword INFANTRY.

 

 

I havent read through the whole thread to see if this is resolved,  but check again, it changed in 9th to require only a single hit, no wound needed. With the added third shot, your unit of 3 suppressors can now reliably shut down overwatch on 3 enemy units each turn. Not great against ramshackle stuff, but will still hurth other multiwound ork stuff. 

[Bonzi]

 

 

 

Also, if you can get your hands on some suppressors they could shut down that overwatch real quick as they merely need to hit for their special 'no overwatch for you' to trigger!

I had three. They were garbage and got ate by 5 Ork Kommandos. Their overwatch suppression only works if they cause a wound to keyword INFANTRY.

 

I havent read through the whole thread to see if this is resolved, but check again, it changed in 9th to require only a single hit, no wound needed. With the added third shot, your unit of 3 suppressors can now reliably shut down overwatch on 3 enemy units each turn. Not great against ramshackle stuff, but will still hurth other multiwound ork stuff.

I think my beef with Suppressors now is their unit size. The weapon profile is good, now that it's 3 shots but they're still limited to 3 models and sadly St 7 damage 2 leaves them in a poor spot within the meta. Fast attack is busy for Blood Angels and a unit of 3 just doesn't do enough work and they are too few to waste offensive or defensive buffs on.

[Karhedron]

I think my beef with Suppressors now is their unit size. The weapon profile is good, now that it's 3 shots but they're still limited to 3 models and sadly St 7 damage 2 leaves them in a poor spot within the meta. Fast attack is busy for Blood Angels and a unit of 3 just doesn't do enough work and they are too few to waste offensive or defensive buffs on.

Actually S7 D2 Ap-1 is good against a lot of stuff in the meta at the moment. DE Vehicles in particular are susceptible to this sort of profile. I do agree that FA is a contested slot for us.

[Bonzi]

 

I think my beef with Suppressors now is their unit size. The weapon profile is good, now that it's 3 shots but they're still limited to 3 models and sadly St 7 damage 2 leaves them in a poor spot within the meta. Fast attack is busy for Blood Angels and a unit of 3 just doesn't do enough work and they are too few to waste offensive or defensive buffs on.

Actually S7 D2 Ap-1 is good against a lot of stuff in the meta at the moment. DE Vehicles in particular are susceptible to this sort of profile. I do agree that FA is a contested slot for us.

Honestly that's more of an exception than a rule at this point. Death Guard, Ork Ramshackle, dreds, paragon Warsuits...so many things in the game that would be excellent targets for autocannons have damage mitigation now. Autocannons have lost a lot of their jack of all trades status. Better to take plasma to overcharge when it matters but to shoot safe with better AP when it doesn't.

[Paladin777]

While I agree that they have only middling damage potential (at best) that's not where their true strength lies. Their strength (especially in a blood angels army) is shutting down potential overwatch! Seriously, have each model shoot at a different target and watch tau cry, or a thousand sons warpflamer unit (one of, if not the most dangerous unit to charge in the game as far as overwatch is concerned!). Edited October 15, 2021 by Paladin777

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

 

 

I think my beef with Suppressors now is their unit size. The weapon profile is good, now that it's 3 shots but they're still limited to 3 models and sadly St 7 damage 2 leaves them in a poor spot within the meta. Fast attack is busy for Blood Angels and a unit of 3 just doesn't do enough work and they are too few to waste offensive or defensive buffs on.

Actually S7 D2 Ap-1 is good against a lot of stuff in the meta at the moment. DE Vehicles in particular are susceptible to this sort of profile. I do agree that FA is a contested slot for us.

Honestly that's more of an exception than a rule at this point. Death Guard, Ork Ramshackle, dreds, paragon Warsuits...so many things in the game that would be excellent targets for autocannons have damage mitigation now. Autocannons have lost a lot of their jack of all trades status. Better to take plasma to overcharge when it matters but to shoot safe with better AP when it doesn't.

minus 1 damage doesn’t make autocannons that much less good lol.

They’ll still chew through most infantry including heavy/elite/tough infantry, and reliably damaging vehicles even if it is just 1 damage is still useful

[Bonzi]

I will reassert my initial comment that the new Ork dex outclasses us in every aspect of the game. I played a rematch against the new orks with a much better list this time, not tournament meta but definitely some of our best units.

 

I was tabled in the bottom of turn 5 rather than turn 3, but I was crushed on points...and he wasn't even trying for one of his secondaries the entire game. By the time I was wiped out he still had 2 Killrigz and 3 squig buggies and a couple trucks left. The Squig buggies alone could have beat me from turn three onwards. 3D6 indirect fire St6, -2, 2 damage shots from each Buggy guarantees losing one + squad of Marines per turn.

 

His beast boss on squig took down my chapter master in Gravis armor with the archangel relic and gift of Foresight in a single round of combat and he would have been able to kill my Sang Priest in the same round if I hadn't used angelic sacrifice to take all the damage onto my chapter master. It took the full shooting of a plasma Redemptor dread, 3 plasma Inceptors, 5 Sanguinary Guard and the combined charges and melee attacks off all three of those units to kill this one model and I lost a full squad of Sanguinary Guard in the process. I don't know why our smash captain needed to be nerfed if this Ork boss is acceptable.

 

By the end of the game his killrig psykers were smiting all my depleted squads off the table one at a time.

 

The Ork list dominated me in mobility (and I had 4 jump pack units), easily out shot me, had far more durability than me, and overmatched me in the psychic phase. I could match him in melee but that's an irrelevant distinction when you're losing in every other aspect of the game. If I hadn't gone first I think I would have been curbstomped by the bottom of turn three again.

 

It's really hard to play an early dex against the new dexes GW is putting out without feeling a fair amount of bitterness.

[Paladin777]

If you don't mind me asking, what did he bring (roughly) and what were you running?

[Bonzi]

Orks: Goff Klan

 

Beast Boss on Squigasaur, beasthide mantle, walord traits that lets him reroll any attack that misses or is saved

 

Weird Boy: gitbones

 

10 Boyz: klaw

10 Boyz: klaw

10 Beastboyz: klaw thing

10 Beastboyz: klaw thing

X2 Trucks

 

5 Kommandos: klaw

5 Kommandos: klaw

Nob on Squig: Iron Gob

X6 Squighog Riders

 

X3 Megatrack Scrapjets

X3 Squig Buggies

 

Killrig

Killrig

 

Vs

 

Gravis Captain: chapter master, +1W&T relic, rites of battle, gift of Foresight

 

Sanguinary Priest: chief apothecary, selfless healer, armor indomitus, jump pack

 

X5 Assault Intercessors: thunder hammer

X5 Assault Intercessors

X5 Intercessors: assault bolters, thunder hammer

 

Redemptor: macro plasma, storm bolters, missile pod

Invictor Warsuit: incendium cannon

X5 Sang Guard: swords, 1 fist

X5 Death Company: jump, X2 power fist

X5 Bladeguard

 

X3 Inceptor: assault bolters

X3 Inceptor: assault plasma

X3 Outriders

 

X3 Eliminators: bolt rifles, quake bolts

[Majkhel]

Sorry to hear mate! It's hard to be on the receiving end of that kind stuff you described. All the more kudos for hanging on as long as you did. 

 

How did Eliminators perfom? Also, do you feel a Judiciar might be some kinda of deterrent/stopper-unit against that Squig-Boss? 

[Bonzi]

Sorry to hear mate! It's hard to be on the receiving end of that kind stuff you described. All the more kudos for hanging on as long as you did.

 

How did Eliminators perfom? Also, do you feel a Judiciar might be some kinda of deterrent/stopper-unit against that Squig-Boss?

I was very disappointed with the Eliminators and Quake bolt combo. The buff never really worked out and Eliminators just don't do much damage. I think I'd rather have the quake bolts on a Vanguard or Bladeguard Sarge for point blank buffs.

 

I think the judicator or a whirlwind is a mandatory answer to the Ork squig Boss for fight last. He can be killed, but it's almost impossible to do without him getting to counter attack once. Anything that shuts that down would be golden.

[Paladin777]

A smash captain with artisan of war (4 damage thunder hammer) would do the job... and if he dies he's only a 130 point model. Mission accomplished.

[Majkhel]

A smash captain with artisan of war (4 damage thunder hammer) would do the job... and if he dies he's only a 130 point model. Mission accomplished.

Yeah, perhaps that is the kind of thing we need to do when faced with something like this Boss - trade a similar kind of unit. Captain can fight upon death as well if needed so it's practically guaranteed he will do some kind of damage. It seems that any kind of multi-model unit is a waste as it's never tanky enough. Also those are exactly the kind of units that Boss wants to get stuck with. 

Edited October 18, 2021 by Majkhel

[Xenith]

Orks: Goff Klan

 

Beast Boss on Squigasaur, beasthide mantle, walord traits that lets him reroll any attack that misses or is saved

 

Weird Boy: gitbones

 

10 Boyz: klaw

10 Boyz: klaw

10 Beastboyz: klaw thing

10 Beastboyz: klaw thing

X2 Trucks

 

5 Kommandos: klaw

5 Kommandos: klaw

Nob on Squig: Iron Gob

X6 Squighog Riders

 

X3 Megatrack Scrapjets

X3 Squig Buggies

 

Killrig

Killrig

 

Vs

 

Gravis Captain: chapter master, +1W&T relic, rites of battle, gift of Foresight

 

Sanguinary Priest: chief apothecary, selfless healer, armor indomitus, jump pack

 

X5 Assault Intercessors: thunder hammer

X5 Assault Intercessors

X5 Intercessors: assault bolters, thunder hammer

 

Redemptor: macro plasma, storm bolters, missile pod

Invictor Warsuit: incendium cannon

X5 Sang Guard: swords, 1 fist

X5 Death Company: jump, X2 power fist

X5 Bladeguard

 

X3 Inceptor: assault bolters

X3 Inceptor: assault plasma

X3 Outriders

 

X3 Eliminators: bolt rifles, quake bolts

 

Not quite au-fait with the new meta, but it seems like your opponent is running the strongest units in a strong codex against your list, which isn't optimised, and is from the first codex of 9th. I think it'll always be an uphill fight. I think you could easily swap the outriders for a whirlwind.

[Bonzi]

A smash captain with artisan of war (4 damage thunder hammer) would do the job... and if he dies he's only a 130 point model. Mission accomplished.

I looked into that and the sad truth is the Smash Captain can't, at least not without a lot of additional buffs from a Chaplain or Librarian.

 

Smash on the charge with shock assault and BA assault bonus is 6 attacks, 4 hits, 3 wounds. Then a 5++ invuln drops that to 2 wounds, beasthide drops the damage by -1 per attack so 6 damage which the Feel no Pain will cut down to 4 total wounds on average on a 9 wound model. The beastboss swings back and gibs the Smash Captain who costs the same points. You need 10+ attacks with the smash captain profile to take a beastboss in one go reliably.

 

I think a Whirlwind is a must but I'm actually really happy with Outriders. I think the three units on the block are the Death Company, Eliminators, and Invictor. In their place will be the whirlwind and probably claw vanguard and maybe a utility pick like a Judicar or Primaris Techmarine.

 

I'd like to save points by dropping the thunder hammers on the Assault Intercessors and Intercessors but the truth is I almost always get return on having those hammers in the units.

 

I have played with the idea of really trimming toys out of the army and running a lot of Assault Intercessors with a fist or hammer in each squad just to see if a zerg rush would work.

[Paladin777]

Then what about a chaplain/chapter master on bike with a FNP relic of some form? Those are supposed to also be stupid tough. If you give the armor indomitus with the chaplain you even get a turn of 3++, or a chapter master with Angel Artifice gets T6 (if that matters). I think the chapter master can even give himself full rerolls on his attacks.

 

As far as running more intercessors goes, what about running more normal ones with auto bolt-rifles? That's some pretty good dakka at a good price point. 15 shots, 10 hits (w/o rerolls), 3.3 wounds≈3 dead boyz per squad at 24".

 

I agree about not wanting to ditch the thunder hammers though.

 

I also think that for best results your redemptor could really use the pair of onslaught Gatling cannons...

Edited October 18, 2021 by Paladin777

[dice4thedicegod]

Yeah, codex creep is real. I play escalation campaigns at the flgs and while my blood angels were 50% win rate, my death guard were 100% until meeting new orks with killrig, beastboss on squigasaur, squig buggies, megatrak skrapjets etc. so, with the same opponent pool, and me being less experienced with a different codex I nevertheless turned from 2-2 to 7-0 (until crushed by the latest hotness). Just on the basis of an inherently stronger codex.

 

I think we can’t trade units in melee or absorb shooting because our units cost too much relative to their numbers/durability. Perhaps if sang guard had access to a transhuman type strat? Or primaris death company got some love?

 

Also, compared to the latest codexes… all our characters are laughably overpriced. (Dante costs the same as mozgrod skragbad??)

[Paladin777]

I just looked at Mozgrod Skragbad... he would cost 230+ points in our book!

[dice4thedicegod]

Not only that but I think that a killrig is flat out better than a land raider (similar shooting, better transport [as open topped], has psychic powers that compliment its function, great melee)… obviously it costs far less!

[Majkhel]

I wouldn't throw smash-chaplain into such grinder - much more utility out of him elsewhere than dying heroically.

Smash Captain can fight upon death which should bring the Boss down or at least leave him on 1W and thus susceptible to even overwatch bolter fire. 

 

Whirlwind will probably not be able to target the Boss (character) until he's committed - so too late.