Fighting New Orks

[Paladin777]

Just looked at the kill rig. While it's shooting is definitely not up to land raider status (bs 5+ and all that), its melee is absolutely obscene! Does ANY other faction have access to monstrosities like that for the cost!?

 

Yeah, Ork's are grossly undercosted!

[dice4thedicegod]

Just looked at the kill rig. While it's shooting is definitely not up to land raider status (bs 5+ and all that), its melee is absolutely obscene! Does ANY other faction have access to monstrosities like that for the cost!?

 

Yeah, Ork's are grossly undercosted!

Remember that it’s big gun (wurrtower) is going to average two auto hits at S9, ap-3,d6 damage. And then it has sticka cannon and heavy lobba at bs5+…

 

But the best gun autohits

Edited October 18, 2021 by dice4thedicegod

[Paladin777]

I missed the part where it said the wurrtower auto hits...

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

We’re not top tier, but we are very competitive if you build a meta list you can compete and beat top tier armies, if you play a bit smarter.

However none of the lists you have posted have been meta lists, and it seems like your opponent is going very hard into beast snaggas which if I’m not mistaken are their most meta units right now.

 

So if you want to do better against that opponent build a 100% meta BA list. At least 2 units if SG and 1 of VVs, some eradicators, a priest with jump pack, and attack bikes/invader ATV, and a bike chaplain as the meat and potatoes of your army.

[dice4thedicegod]

SG are surely terrible against orks? Against infantry, boyz will trade at advantage (being cheaper but still able to kill them) and Ork buggies/vehicles will be at -1 damage (unless you go powerfist, in which case your sang guard are getting even more punitively expensive)

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

SG are surely terrible against orks? Against infantry, boyz will trade at advantage (being cheaper but still able to kill them) and Ork buggies/vehicles will be at -1 damage (unless you go powerfist, in which case your sang guard are getting even more punitively expensive)

…of course boys can kill SG, IG, conscripts can kill them. Everything can kill everything.

 

But if you’re targeting boys with your SG your priorities need to be reevaluated, and SG should be able to kite away from boyz.

Again, buggies aren’t what you should be using SG against. Use HB autocannons, plasma, and melta on them…

[Majkhel]

For maximising our supplement, I would seriously consider Whirlwind of Rage plus say Artisans instead of Blood Angels' traits.

Also, if Mortal Wounds are abundant, Soulwarden WT somewhere. 

 

A little bit off-top, but I just noticed that Boss on Squigasaur is in a sweet spot to avoid out Death Company Visions mechanic as it's CAVALRY

[Karhedron]

Kill Rigs look nasty but they are definitely MM fodder. A trio of MM attack bikes are cheaper and a volley from them at <12" should put 11 Wounds on a Kill Rig on average before any buffs are applied.

 

I agree that they are almost criminally underpriced though. It has a surprisingly similar profile to a Repulsor but less than 2/3 the price and comes with a built-in psyker.

[dice4thedicegod]

 

SG are surely terrible against orks? Against infantry, boyz will trade at advantage (being cheaper but still able to kill them) and Ork buggies/vehicles will be at -1 damage (unless you go powerfist, in which case your sang guard are getting even more punitively expensive)

…of course boys can kill SG, IG, conscripts can kill them. Everything can kill everything.

 

But if you’re targeting boys with your SG your priorities need to be reevaluated, and SG should be able to kite away from boyz.

Again, buggies aren’t what you should be using SG against. Use HB autocannons, plasma, and melta on them…

My point is: orks often spam buggies and/or boyz. So sang guard are not necessarily a good answer to Ork lists.

[Paladin777]

I would imagine Thunder hammers and lightning claws are probably your best bet vs orks in melee. Hammers ignore ramshackle, and LC's are great for making minced-meat out of most of their infantry. Power axes would be pretty potent as well, actually, but those are pretty underutilized by us. The more base attacks the model gets the more favorable the axe becomes on it. I'll have to do a side-by-side numbers breakdown sometime.

 

That being said, 4/8 of my SG are rocking fists and two of those have inferno pistols. They'd probably be pretty decent at taking out ramshackle vehicles.

Edited October 19, 2021 by Paladin777

[Xenith]

With the ongoing handing out of -1 Damage like candy, then lightning claws continually become the better option. Fists lose 50% effectiveness against -1D, hammers -33%, claws lose 0%. Against W1 models, claws were the better choice anyway. 

 

The kill rig is indeed a beast, but I think that's what strategic reserve eradicators are for. Though it leaves a bad tasts to trade their 190 pt unit for your only slightly less than 190pt unit. 

Edited October 19, 2021 by Xenith

[Rhavien]

 

SG are surely terrible against orks? Against infantry, boyz will trade at advantage (being cheaper but still able to kill them) and Ork buggies/vehicles will be at -1 damage (unless you go powerfist, in which case your sang guard are getting even more punitively expensive)

…of course boys can kill SG, IG, conscripts can kill them. Everything can kill everything.

 

But if you’re targeting boys with your SG your priorities need to be reevaluated, and SG should be able to kite away from boyz.

Again, buggies aren’t what you should be using SG against. Use HB autocannons, plasma, and melta on them…

I haven't fought against new Orks yet and I didn't had a in depth look at their new codex yet, but based on the information out of this thread and some battle reports I ask myself if there is a viable target for the sang guard at all. If they aren't effective against boys, trucks, buggies and killy characters, what should you attack with them? Maybe our meta lists are just not good against Orks?

HBs and autocannons also suffer greatly from the damage reduction by ramshackle.

[Paladin777]

Strength 8+ ignores ramshackle which is why I figured that hammers/fists were still all good. It's against the beast boss that they still struggle against...

 

Melta weapons really do seem to be the way to go against a lot of ork stuff. Ignores ramshackle and en masse (eradicators/MM attack bikes) they can really do some good work. The bikes even have the added bonus of cranking out some decent dakka against boyz too. 12 bolter shots=2.6 dead boyz at 24" range. The speed 14" helps too.

Edited October 19, 2021 by Paladin777

[Paladin777]

While we're on the subject of melta weapons, is it just me or is the heavy melta rifle on the eradicators irrelevant when you can take a multi melta?

 

I get that the regular melta rifle has its uses (shooting after advancing).

 

However, if you're outside half range the multi does 27% more damage than the HMR, and when you're within half range it does 60% more. Against targets with the -1 damage rule the HMR comes closer, but the MM still puts out more damage at 10% and 38% respectively.

 

Since they are both heavy weapons with the same range those number remain consistent under all other conditions.

 

So at worst you're getting a 10% increase in damage output for a 5% increase in model price, and at best you're getting a whopping 60% increase with easy-to-meet conditions.

 

Edit, I just noticed the 1 in 3 rules on the MM... the math stands, but the HMR definitely has a place after all.

Edited October 19, 2021 by Paladin777

[a_typical_hero]

Dhrukari, Orks and partly Sisters do hero hammer better than us, there is no point in engaging them with any of our characters.

 

I faced the same Ork boss the other day with my Marines and while it was cool to have a (forced, as in he charged me) duel with my Emperor's Champion, I shot that git off the board once he was done with him. Some Melter to the face will do the trick.

 

As a general feedback on the last Marine list:

- The Gravis captain is slow, relatively vulnerable and without any proper offensive output. I would highly recommend switching for a Captain with Jump Pack, Sword of the Imperium, Hammer of Baal, Inferno Pistol and Adamantine Mantle. Still, you don't charge that Ork on the squig with it, you go huntin'.

- I would play SangGuard with Axes and no special weapons.

- I would recommend more SangGuard.

- While I'm a fan of the models, strictly speaking, Outriders are a bad unit.

- So are Eliminators.

- You need more melta.

 

Otoh, a list only takes you so far, if you are not familiar with it or don't know how to use it. Play some more games, get to know your units and their limits as well as their capabilities.

Even with dead evenly balanced lists, there is always the human part. Some people have more success with a specific army than others.

[Paladin777]

 

- So are Eliminators.

 

 

Darn, I just bought a box...

[a_typical_hero]

Don't get me wrong. They are playable and won't lose you the game. Personally I would play them with Las-Fusils. From a competitive perspective though, you need a plan for them or else they won't perfom like point&click units as VanguardVets are for example.

[Paladin777]

That's fair. I've been going back and forth on which weapon to give them and you may have answered that question.

[Bonzi]

The Outriders are a heartbreaker. They've really done well for me in both games I've had against the new Ork dex, but they are too steep at 150pts for 3 and mostly I use them as a points grabber/utility pick and they're a little to costly for that.

 

The other heartbreaker is that my experience is pointing more and more to Vanguard being the best choice vs Orks. That upsets me because the only BA unique choice worth taking that's left in the army is the Sang Priest. For everything else I might as well not be playing Blood Angels because even their base CT isn't as good as what you can do with successor chapter tactics.

 

At some point the answer for how to play against the new Orks is to not play Blood Angels and that's pretty upsetting.

Edited October 19, 2021 by Bonzi

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

 

 

SG are surely terrible against orks? Against infantry, boyz will trade at advantage (being cheaper but still able to kill them) and Ork buggies/vehicles will be at -1 damage (unless you go powerfist, in which case your sang guard are getting even more punitively expensive)

…of course boys can kill SG, IG, conscripts can kill them. Everything can kill everything.

 

But if you’re targeting boys with your SG your priorities need to be reevaluated, and SG should be able to kite away from boyz.

Again, buggies aren’t what you should be using SG against. Use HB autocannons, plasma, and melta on them…

My point is: orks often spam buggies and/or boyz. So sang guard are not necessarily a good answer to Ork lists.

then VVs with LC&SS instead durable and still very choppy

[brother_b]

“ 3D6 indirect fire St6, -2, 2 damage shots from each Buggy”

 

This is crazy to me. GW purposely nerfed similar no-LOS shooting units on admech (Scorpius) yet a more powerful version shows up in orcs codex.

 

The disconnect between armies and playtests is sadly funny at times.

 

Yeah orcs are tough. So what’s the solution? I’m facing them soon with my White Scars and I feel I’ll be out manouvered and out fought based on some of the previous games he’s had in our group. Out shot is a given too btw.

[a_typical_hero]

“ 3D6 indirect fire St6, -2, 2 damage shots from each Buggy”

 

This is crazy to me. GW purposely nerfed similar no-LOS shooting units on admech (Scorpius) yet a more powerful version shows up in orcs codex.

 

The disconnect between armies and playtests is sadly funny at times.

 

Yeah orcs are tough. So what’s the solution? I’m facing them soon with my White Scars and I feel I’ll be out manouvered and out fought based on some of the previous games he’s had in our group. Out shot is a given too btw.

Those 3d6 shots are only S5 and distributed between 2d6 that hit on 4s and 1d6 hitting on 5s.

That means 2 dead Marines outside of cover on average. While efficient, it is not impossible.

[Paladin777]

Not that our army can make particularly good use of it, but -1 to hit would be brutal against orks, effectively cutting their number of hits in the shooting phase in half.

 

Just wanted to point that out.

 

That being said, an abundance of assault/onslaught cannons are probably your best bet vs their infantry/bikes and mobile melta's are likely the way to go vs their vehicles.

[Bonzi]

 

 

“ 3D6 indirect fire St6, -2, 2 damage shots from each Buggy”

 

This is crazy to me. GW purposely nerfed similar no-LOS shooting units on admech (Scorpius) yet a more powerful version shows up in orcs codex.

 

The disconnect between armies and playtests is sadly funny at times.

 

Yeah orcs are tough. So what’s the solution? I’m facing them soon with my White Scars and I feel I’ll be out manouvered and out fought based on some of the previous games he’s had in our group. Out shot is a given too btw.

Those 3d6 shots are only S5 and distributed between 2d6 that hit on 4s and 1d6 hitting on 5s.

That means 2 dead Marines outside of cover on average. While efficient, it is not impossible.

You're right it's only Str 5, I'll have to check my opponent on that, but thats 2 dead Marines PER buggie, so a squad of 3 is wiping a squad of Marines per turn and they can sit behind Orks lines and do it unopposed for every turn of the game because anything you send to get them gets caught by Boyz or Squig Hog riders or just gets shot off the table by the buggies themselves. Our own indirect fire can't even scratch them because of ramshackle.

 

Outflanking eradicators would hurt them, but a single squad will likely only kill one or two (and their profiles don't degrade so wounded but not dead is pointless) and you'll likely need your eradicators to be focusing on any Killrigz first.

 

My struggle vs Orks is their points are so low they can have their cake and eat it to...and then they take your cake too. My lists are not top tier because playing meta only is pretty boring, but I am not a bad or inexperienced player. I'm fine with losing, but getting tabled by an opponent who isn't even really trying to play his army to the max is demoralizing.

Edited October 19, 2021 by Bonzi

[Paladin777]

That's also 270 points for three of them.

 

It's also 1.5 dead marines per buggy if it's within 18", and only 1 dead if it's lurking in the back.

 

If it's within 18", chances are you'll be able to do something about it.

 

If your opponent decides they'd rather lurk then they're not using the buggy's to their full potential and are better off ignores until you want the objective they're undoubtedly camping on.