Fighting New Orks

[a_typical_hero]

 

My struggle vs Orks is their points are so low they can have their cake and eat it to...and then they take your cake too. My lists are not top tier because playing meta only is pretty boring, but I am not a bad or inexperienced player. I'm fine with losing, but getting tabled by an opponent who isn't even really trying to play his army to the max is demoralizing.

 

Then talk to your opponent to tone their list down so you both enjoy the game.

[Paladin777]

If he's bringing the best units that Orks have available, then he is trying to play his army well.

 

I'm not going to try to deny power creep, or that the ork codex isn't more powerful than ours, but to suggest that your opponent isn't even trying sounds a little misleading.

Edited October 19, 2021 by Paladin777

[Bonzi]

That's also 270 points for three of them.

 

It's also 1.5 dead marines per buggy if it's within 18", and only 1 dead if it's lurking in the back.

 

If it's within 18", chances are you'll be able to do something about it.

 

If your opponent decides they'd rather lurk then they're not using the buggy's to their full potential and are better off ignores until you want the objective they're undoubtedly camping on.

With my first hand experience I can say you are entirely incorrect in your analysis and you are missing the forrest for staring at a single tree. The buggies alone are a problem that can be solved...when you play against Orks as an army you are not just facing the buggies.

 

Those buggies sit on objectives behind LoS blocking cover with bases so big you'll never take the objective until you kill them, even with obsec, because you can't get within 3" of the objective. They also move as fast as jump infantry so they can trade objectives if you threatened them. You cant move onto objectives within the middle board without coming under full fire and most units you do will be traded away for a gain in points only but Marines are too expensive to trade that way. If they are killing or crippling a unit a turn with no answer they win. You don't ignore the buggies because you can, you ignore them because you have to deal with the other Buggies, Boyz and kill rigz bearing down on you.

[Bonzi]

Please remove Edited October 19, 2021 by Bonzi

[Paladin777]

What if you added more ranged alpha strike units like drop pod devastator's, incepters, and maybe relic terminators equipped for shooting with lightning claws (reaper auto cannon, plasma blaster, grenade harness... though chainfists would make short work of most ramshackle vehicles too.)? Edited October 19, 2021 by Paladin777

[Karhedron]

How do Death Company stack up? Buckets of Chainsword attacks look potent on paper and are not too pricey. A 10-man squad with Jump Packs will set you back 250 points but generate 50 attacks on the charge (60 in the Assault Doctrine). That will put 20 wounds on basic boyz before any buffs are applied which should wipe most squads or ~3 Warbuggies since Ramshackle provides no defense against 1D weapons.

 

Of course you can tool them up by throwing a few heavier weapons like Fists or Hammers on there to deal with tougher targets. You can also chuck a Character in there to lead them. Primaris Chaplain on a bike to chant Litany of Battle is a solid pick, particularly if you have any Fists/Hammers in there. The following Chaplain build is particularly tanky and at 135 points, he should stand up to most things an Ork unit can throw at him for a turn or two.

 

Primaris Chaplain

Warlord (Angel Exemplar)

Master of Sanctity

Armour Indomitus

Gift of Foresight

Artisan of War (Adamantine Mantle)

Canticle of Hate

Mantra of Strength

 

You have a Very mobile character with 8 T5 wounds, a 2+/4++/5+++ save and a once-per-game 3++. He can reroll one hit, wound and save per turn.

[dice4thedicegod]

How do Death Company stack up? Buckets of Chainsword attacks look potent on paper and are not too pricey. A 10-man squad with Jump Packs will set you back 250 points but generate 50 attacks on the charge (60 in the Assault Doctrine). That will put 20 wounds on basic boyz before any buffs are applied which should wipe most squads or ~3 Warbuggies since Ramshackle provides no defense against 1D weapons.

 

Of course you can tool them up by throwing a few heavier weapons like Fists or Hammers on there to deal with tougher targets. You can also chuck a Character in there to lead them. Primaris Chaplain on a bike to chant Litany of Battle is a solid pick, particularly if you have any Fists/Hammers in there. The following Chaplain build is particularly tanky and at 135 points, he should stand up to most things an Ork unit can throw at him for a turn or two.

 

Primaris Chaplain

Warlord (Angel Exemplar)

Master of Sanctity

Armour Indomitus

Gift of Foresight

Artisan of War (Adamantine Mantle)

Canticle of Hate

Mantra of Strength

 

You have a Very mobile character with 8 T5 wounds, a 2+/4++/5+++ save and a once-per-game 3++. He can reroll one hit, wound and save per turn.

I think that the only problem there is:

 

- Ork boyz and death company are capable of killing each other… but boyz are cheaper (and nowadays are likely to be in a unit of ten, with 10 more behind them ready to trade on the following turn)

 

- the tanky chaplain is not as tanky or killy as a beastboss on squigasaur but almost as expensive

 

I’m not sure what the answer is (besides having cost efficient screening and melta spam)

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

How do Death Company stack up? Buckets of Chainsword attacks look potent on paper and are not too pricey. A 10-man squad with Jump Packs will set you back 250 points but generate 50 attacks on the charge (60 in the Assault Doctrine). That will put 20 wounds on basic boyz before any buffs are applied which should wipe most squads or ~3 Warbuggies since Ramshackle provides no defense against 1D weapons.

 

Of course you can tool them up by throwing a few heavier weapons like Fists or Hammers on there to deal with tougher targets. You can also chuck a Character in there to lead them. Primaris Chaplain on a bike to chant Litany of Battle is a solid pick, particularly if you have any Fists/Hammers in there. The following Chaplain build is particularly tanky and at 135 points, he should stand up to most things an Ork unit can throw at him for a turn or two.

 

Primaris Chaplain

Warlord (Angel Exemplar)

Master of Sanctity

Armour Indomitus

Gift of Foresight

Artisan of War (Adamantine Mantle)

Canticle of Hate

Mantra of Strength

 

You have a Very mobile character with 8 T5 wounds, a 2+/4++/5+++ save and a once-per-game 3++. He can reroll one hit, wound and save per turn.

my experience with DC is that firstborn DC are underwhelming, and only slightly better than assault marines.

I will not be taking mine once I finish my VVs

For reference I run mine 4chainswords and a power axe (built them years and years ago and just go with WYSIWYG)

[Karhedron]

I think that the only problem there is:

 

- Ork boyz and death company are capable of killing each other… but boyz are cheaper (and nowadays are likely to be in a unit of ten, with 10 more behind them ready to trade on the following turn)

 

- the tanky chaplain is not as tanky or killy as a beastboss on squigasaur but almost as expensive

 

I’m not sure what the answer is (besides having cost efficient screening and melta spam)

OK, 10 boyz led by a Nob with Klaw is a bargainous 100 points on the nose. Assuming the Orks get the charge and have the Waagh up, they will get 40 attacks which will do around 6-7 wounds. Let's round that up to 4 dead Marines since the Nob is a bit killier although the 6+++ migh soften that slightly. You still have more than half the DC striking back which should still be enough to wipe the boyz.

 

That means the enemy has lost 200 points in exchange for 100 points of DC. It is now your turn meaning the DC are free to attack another target. Now all this is theory-crafting in a vacuum as both sides are likely to be shooting and may have a few heavy hitters standing by to tip crucial combats. But the point stands that by this analysis, DC can make quite a mess on the charge and trade points quite efficiently with Orks while retaining the hitting power to deal with follow-ups.

[dice4thedicegod]

 

I think that the only problem there is:

 

- Ork boyz and death company are capable of killing each other… but boyz are cheaper (and nowadays are likely to be in a unit of ten, with 10 more behind them ready to trade on the following turn)

 

- the tanky chaplain is not as tanky or killy as a beastboss on squigasaur but almost as expensive

 

I’m not sure what the answer is (besides having cost efficient screening and melta spam)

OK, 10 boyz led by a Nob with Klaw is a bargainous 100 points on the nose. Assuming the Orks get the charge and have the Waagh up, they will get 40 attacks which will do around 6-7 wounds. Let's round that up to 4 dead Marines since the Nob is a bit killier although the 6+++ migh soften that slightly. You still have more than half the DC striking back which should still be enough to wipe the boyz.

 

That means the enemy has lost 200 points in exchange for 100 points of DC. It is now your turn meaning the DC are free to attack another target. Now all this is theory-crafting in a vacuum as both sides are likely to be shooting and may have a few heavy hitters standing by to tip crucial combats. But the point stands that by this analysis, DC can make quite a mess on the charge and trade points quite efficiently with Orks while retaining the hitting power to deal with follow-ups.

It depends…

 

Most orks are goffs or freebooter. If there’s lots of boys, it’s more likely to be goffs. Also, two turns in a row there will be a waaagh bonus… and it will probably be the deciding turns.

 

9 Goff boyz, choppas, charging in a waaagh should score 30 hits. Which is 20 wounds. And 10 failed armor saves. Then there’s the nob with claw…

[Bonzi]

Dice4thediceGod is correct in at least my circumstance as I'm facing Goff. 10 Boyz w/claw Nob & Waaagh is 4 attack per boy w/Str 5 on the charge, -1 AP and every roll to hit of 6 counts as 2 hits instead of 1.

 

So: 36 Choppa attacks = 30 hits = 20 wounds at -1, so 10 unsaved wounds on regular Primaris + 1 to 2 unsaved D2 wounds from a power klaw = a dead or combat ineffective squad of Marines unless you get the charge. If you get the charge you wipe the Boyz and get killed by the next wave.

 

Point for point I think Assault Intercessors are our best weapon vs Boyz. They're the only guys who can trade even with Boyz in a give and take situation. I have found Bladeguard backed with Sang Priest to be the only thing that can stop the Ork army in its tracks and push them back. Everything else is just a trade.

[Paladin777]

Which is why the more I think of it the more I'm thinking that the alpha strike is key. We've got enough Killy units that can drop in without CP like inceptors to make a mess of things. Ultimately, be judicious with your targets, focus fire and cripple enough key targets that it makes your opponent have to actually think about what he wants to shoot back with.

 

A squad of 5 plasma inceptors will deal 20w to anything ramshackle when overcharging (assuming you've got a reroll 1's unit nearby). Sure you might lose one, but killing off two buggies for the price of one inceptors isn't a bad trade. Not to mention that inceptors are T5 3W so they can weather some decent firepower themselves, especially if you decide to pop the +1 to saves vs D1 attacks.

 

Alternatively, drop in a squad of relic terminators with chainfists. Put the reaper auto cannon and plasma blaster into something juicy (overcharge if you feel lucky and have a command reroll on tap), the combi-bolters into some boyz, and then charge something big for S8, D3, attacks with -4AP.

 

This isn't the be all to end all, but enough alpha striking units descending simultaneously might be the way to go.

Edited October 19, 2021 by Paladin777

[Karhedron]

OK, I agree that some alpha strike shooting is probably the way to go. Ideally we really need massed S6 shooting to seriously dent boyz mobs and also grind through ramshackle vehicles. Twin assault cannons and HOGCs are our best options so what are the most cost-efficient platforms to take them? A TLAC Razorback weighs in at 125 points for 12 S6 shots. Can we do better than 10 points per shot?

 

A whirlwind offers similar points efficiency but only when shooting at units of 11+ which I gather is not the meta now. On the plus side it does have strat to turn off overwatch. Heavy Intercessors with the Assault guns clock in at about 10 points per shot although only S5 but do gain ObjSec and reroll buffs.

 

The Gladiator Reaper comes in slightly cheaper at 8.75 points per shot. While it has similar firepower to 2 Razorbacks, it only has slightly more wounds than 1 RB (albeit at T8 rather than T7).

 

A Redemptor Dread is a pretty good option as it packs a HOGC backed up with an OGC. It benefits from buffs, has Duty Eternal and hits like a freight train melee. I am wondering if a pair of Redemptors acting as bodyguards to a Libby with Psychic Fortress or a Master of the Forge to keep them accurate and stomping might have mileage.

[a_typical_hero]

A Redemptor Dread is a pretty good option as it packs a HOGC backed up with an OGC. It benefits from buffs, has Duty Eternal and hits like a freight train melee. I am wondering if a pair of Redemptors acting as bodyguards to a Libby with Psychic Fortress or a Master of the Forge to keep them accurate and stomping might have mileage.

This is very likely very good. Giving your Redemptors some form of invul is one part of what carrys Deathwatch through tournaments right now.

Suppressors clock in at 11,11p per S7 shot with the ability to shut down Overwatch and having 48" of range as well as Fly.

Edited October 19, 2021 by a_typical_hero

[Paladin777]

The problem is suppressors fall over in a stiff wind compared to the other options.

 

While not S6, Inceptors are a worthwhile mention at 18 shots at s5 for 135 points. They're not redemptor tough, but they're still gravis models.

 

Against 6+ model units 3 of the plasma variety still get 18 S7, AP-3 shots at 150 points.

Edited October 19, 2021 by Paladin777

[Karhedron]

A Relic Contemptor with dual Volkite puts out an impressive 16 S6 shots with 2 Damage and the chance to fish for mortal wounds. It also packs a 5++ and weighs in at 150 points.

 

Now if only I could afford Forgeworld toys.

[dice4thedicegod]

It’s a shame that so many of the solutions (ATV, attack bike, redemptor) are all better in non blood angels detatchments :(

[Paladin777]

A Relic Contemptor with dual Volkite puts out an impressive 16 S6 shots with 2 Damage and the chance to fish for mortal wounds. It also packs a 5++ and weighs in at 150 points.

 

Now if only I could afford Forgeworld toys.

I watched a batrep of Thousand Sons vs Orks and the thousand sons took one of those. It was beastly!

 

Land speeder tornadoes might be worth looking at too. A heavy bolter and assault cannon on an extremely fast, flying T6 6W chassis for 80 points.

Edited October 19, 2021 by Paladin777

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

OK, I agree that some alpha strike shooting is probably the way to go. Ideally we really need massed S6 shooting to seriously dent boyz mobs and also grind through ramshackle vehicles. Twin assault cannons and HOGCs are our best options so what are the most cost-efficient platforms to take them? A TLAC Razorback weighs in at 125 points for 12 S6 shots. Can we do better than 10 points per shot?

 

A whirlwind offers similar points efficiency but only when shooting at units of 11+ which I gather is not the meta now. On the plus side it does have strat to turn off overwatch. Heavy Intercessors with the Assault guns clock in at about 10 points per shot although only S5 but do gain ObjSec and reroll buffs.

 

The Gladiator Reaper comes in slightly cheaper at 8.75 points per shot. While it has similar firepower to 2 Razorbacks, it only has slightly more wounds than 1 RB (albeit at T8 rather than T7).

 

A Redemptor Dread is a pretty good option as it packs a HOGC backed up with an OGC. It benefits from buffs, has Duty Eternal and hits like a freight train melee. I am wondering if a pair of Redemptors acting as bodyguards to a Libby with Psychic Fortress or a Master of the Forge to keep them accurate and stomping might have mileage.

venerable dreads with assault cannon. 6 S6 shots hitting on 2s and a DCCW

[Paladin777]

Is that enough dakka for 135 points vs Orks? I'm not sure it is, regardless of the WS2+

 

I suppose you've also got the storm bolter, but you've only got 2 shots at 24".

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

 

A Relic Contemptor with dual Volkite puts out an impressive 16 S6 shots with 2 Damage and the chance to fish for mortal wounds. It also packs a 5++ and weighs in at 150 points.

 

Now if only I could afford Forgeworld toys.

I watched a batrep of Thousand Sons vs Orks and the thousand sons took one of those. It was beastly!

 

Land speeder tornadoes might be worth looking at too. A heavy bolter and assault cannon on an extremely fast, flying T6 6W chassis for 80 points.

I used a tornado in my last game (against WS) idk if I’d say I got my money’s worth out of it or not.

I no longer recall the specifics of the game, but I don’t think it killed any of his bikers, maybe an eliminator? But it did end up taking a fair bit of fire that didn’t go towards more important units like my ven dread

[Majkhel]

A Redemptor Dread is a pretty good option as it packs a HOGC backed up with an OGC. It benefits from buffs, has Duty Eternal and hits like a freight train melee. I am wondering if a pair of Redemptors acting as bodyguards to a Libby with Psychic Fortress or a Master of the Forge to keep them accurate and stomping might have mileage.

While we are around Techmarines - Primaris Techmarine is actually quite killy himself with all his shooting and attacks being at least S5

[Karhedron]

venerable dreads with assault cannon. 6 S6 shots hitting on 2s and a DCCW

Is that enough dakka for 135 points vs Orks? I'm not sure it is, regardless of the WS2+

 

I suppose you've also got the storm bolter, but you've only got 2 shots at 24".

That is my concern also. For an extra 45 points, The Redemptor brings more than twice the firepower. It also has 40% more wounds (although a degrading profile and no 6+++). It faster and hits harder in melee although it is only WS/BS 3+. While the Ven Dread is pretty good, I think the Redemptor brings more for his points.

[Karhedron]

How do aircraft fair against Orks? I know they are a bit pricey but the -1 to-Hit will halve the effectiveness of Ork shooting. All of our aircraft can pack a twin assault cannon meaning 12 S6 shots plus a variety of secondary weapons.

 

Crucially, they can't be attacked in melee by most ork units meaning no tarpitting and no Waagh bonuses against them. I know conventional wisdom is that aircraft took a nerfing in 9th but they do look like the paper to the Orky rock.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

How do aircraft fair against Orks? I know they are a bit pricey but the -1 to-Hit will halve the effectiveness of Ork shooting. All of our aircraft can pack a twin assault cannon meaning 12 S6 shots plus a variety of secondary weapons.

 

Crucially, they can't be attacked in melee by most ork units meaning no tarpitting and no Waagh bonuses against them. I know conventional wisdom is that aircraft took a nerfing in 9th but they do look like the paper to the Orky rock.

I can’t speak for orks, but while expensive my storm raven performed admirably in my first and so far only use of it against WS.