which point reductions are needed for our vehicles

[Medjugorje]

Most of us are aware that our vehicles are very bad at the moment. But if there are no rule changes then we need point reductions.

I had a few discussions how far GW should go.

 

The vehicles what need point reductions imo:

 

- all Gladiators 40

- all Stormspeeders 20

- all Predators 40

- all Land Raiders 50

- all Rhino Variants 20 to 30

- all Repulsors 50

- the Impulsor 30

(maybe the list is not finished).

 

how far would you go#?

[XeonDragon]

Razorbacks with twin las cannons should be no more than 100 point. DE Raiders are 95 points, T6 instead of T7, same BS3+, has a las-cannon/melta style weapon, is open-topped and has a 5++. At 90 to 100 points, a twin las cannon razorback would be useful. Terrax termites should be about 125 points.  Drop pod should be about 50 points, same with Rhinos. Primaris marines should be able to use Drop pod, termites, razorbacks and rhinos. 

Edited October 6, 2021 by XeonDragon

[Closet Skeleton]

Rhinos would still be OP at 50 points when 5 tactical marines with a missile launcher are 105 since just adding a second storm bolter and hunter killer gives them very similar offence, 70-80 is fine. Rhinos are only fragile because they can't be spammed. Return twin assault cannon razorbacks to spammable and they'll go back to being a large proportion of marine lists.

 

Land Raiders should be 180-210 points.

Impulsor should be about where it is naked after upgrades.

Move and fire weapon tax on vehicle heavy weapons should go, then predators and landspeeders would be about right.

Razorback should be 90 for all variants except 110 for twin assault cannon.

 

Expensive vehicles aren't a problem themselves, Admech vehicles aren't really under costed vs Marine ones on their datasheets. Points drops on marine vehicles would have to be pretty unfair before the units themselves start being good so the best a points rebalance can do is limit how much a player is hurting themselves to take a suboptimal choice.

[Medjugorje]

but you have to buy the tax to buy them. And Tacticals for example are very bad. But yes.... 15 points cheaper for a rhino would be okay.

SoB rhinos are okay because their 6++ and especially because their units are way stronger. 5 sitsters and 5 retributors in a rhino are equal in costs to 5 Intercessors in Impulsor for example but way stronger.

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

Most of us are aware that our vehicles are very bad at the moment. But if there are no rule changes then we need point reductions.

I had a few discussions how far GW should go.

 

The vehicles what need point reductions imo:

 

- all Gladiators 40

- all Stormspeeders 20

- all Predators 40

- all Land Raiders 50

- all Rhino Variants 20 to 30

- all Repulsors 50

- the Impulsor 30

(maybe the list is not finished).

 

how far would you go#?

First I'd drop the weapon tax, so 5 pts per heavy weapon which varies due to loadouts but if my point drops seem low add 15-20 for the weapons.

 

Gladiators 20 fix lancer

Stormspeeders no change, they show up in a bit in tournament lists already so the heavy weapon tax should be enough IMO.

Predators 20

Land raiders 40

Razorbacks 20 rhino's 10

Repulsor 30 Executioner 50

Implusor 20

 

So our lists would be pretty similar, I think I'm higher on transports and the stormspeeders.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

Most of us are aware that our vehicles are very bad at the moment. But if there are no rule changes then we need point reductions.

I had a few discussions how far GW should go.

 

The vehicles what need point reductions imo:

 

- all Gladiators 40

- all Stormspeeders 20

- all Predators 40

- all Land Raiders 50

- all Rhino Variants 20 to 30

- all Repulsors 50

- the Impulsor 30

(maybe the list is not finished).

 

how far would you go#?

to be competitive based on rules LRs need something more like 80-100pts dropped

 

SR needs 50-80 dropped as well

[Orange Knight]

I think that a fully upgraded Gladiator Valiant at 190 points would be a very compelling unit.

 

Repulsors should be priced around the 250 point mark, or they should receive a substantial rule improvement. One solution would be to grant them a 2+ save, a damage reduction rule the same as the Dreadnought, and the deepstrike ability written about in various novels.

[Closet Skeleton]

but you have to buy the tax to buy them. And Tacticals for example are very bad. But yes.... 15 points cheaper for a rhino would be okay.

SoB rhinos are okay because their 6++ and especially because their units are way stronger. 5 sitsters and 5 retributors in a rhino are equal in costs to 5 Intercessors in Impulsor for example but way stronger.

 

Tactical marines are stronger than troops slot Sisters in every way as are devastators vs retributors now that retributors have lost those silly rules. The lower cost of weaker sister models just makes the rhino a more acceptable investment. 6++ only matters in the current dark lance/combat doctrines meta and even then is irrelevant vs Cognis Lascannons.

Edited October 7, 2021 by Closet Skeleton

[DantesRevenge]

I agree the heavy weapon tax is quite steep for Marines at the moment. Las-cannons for instance are just way to expensive for the swingy amount of damage they do. I would start by halving the cost the additional weapons at least.

 

I think the biggest issue with Marine vehicles currently isn't their resilience but their points efficiency. So yeah, bring a Pred Annihilator down by 30 points - 10 point reduction on vehicle and on each las cannon sponsoon and it starts looking like a much more attractive option. 

[Karhedron]

Stormspeeders no change, they show up in a bit in tournament lists already so the heavy weapon tax should be enough IMO.

Stormspeeders mostly show up in Dark Angels lists where the Ravenwing rule gives them a 5++ Invulnerable Jink save. They are pretty rubbish for everyone else and need a price drop.

 

Although of course that might make them too good for the Ravenwing. 

[Guest Triszin]

The storm Ravens, storm wolf's/fangs also need steep price decreases. In line with raider/repulsor discounts

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

 

Stormspeeders no change, they show up in a bit in tournament lists already so the heavy weapon tax should be enough IMO.

Stormspeeders mostly show up in Dark Angels lists where the Ravenwing rule gives them a 5++ Invulnerable Jink save. They are pretty rubbish for everyone else and need a price drop.

 

Although of course that might make them too good for the Ravenwing. 

 

 

They have shown up in some Iron hand lists in goonhammers meta articles. I'll concede that they are rare, but its not like predators or gladiators. I will admit that with primaris vehicles its harder for me to give a discount to a chassis because they all tend to have unique loadouts, or even in the the thunderstrike's case a different BS which is pretty crazy.

 

That said Marine vehicles pay a 5 point premium on heavy weapons. So as an example a stormspeeder hammerstrike is probably paying an extra 10-15 points (the 3 shot MM makes it tough to estimate what they charged). I really think this surcharge needs to go, and it will have a pretty big impact.

[Medjugorje]

main problem is that the supplements can shift their power very much. 

 

If there would be no WS, BT or BA Supplement/Index we would have never seen a point increase for Vanguards. Main problem is that with some of that supplements the units double their power

 

Bikes with DA

Vanguard Vets with BT or WS

Terminators with DA

Any vehicles with IH..

[TheNewman]

Flamer Aggressors under Salamanders.

A lot of melee units under White Scars (the terrible match-up into Deathguard not withstanding).

 

The storm Ravens, storm wolf's/fangs also need steep price decreases. In line with raider/repulsor discounts

Oh [censored], the Stormraven, holy cow is that thing overpriced. So are the Stormhawk and Stormtalon.

 

...they're not vehicles, but Centurion Devastators are at least 25ppm overpriced.

Edited October 7, 2021 by TheNewman

[XeonDragon]

Agree about las-cannons. They are a joke. Average damage 3.5, vs 3.5 for melta outside melta range and 5.5 if inside. Making them either D3+3, D6+1, D3+2 or even roll 2 or 3 D6 and take the best would make them way less swingy and a viable alternative to melta on the smaller modern boards. All of a sudden quad-las predators and twin las razorbacks would be interesting. 

I agree the heavy weapon tax is quite steep for Marines at the moment. Las-cannons for instance are just way to expensive for the swingy amount of damage they do. I would start by halving the cost the additional weapons at least.

 

I think the biggest issue with Marine vehicles currently isn't their resilience but their points efficiency. So yeah, bring a Pred Annihilator down by 30 points - 10 point reduction on vehicle and on each las cannon sponsoon and it starts looking like a much more attractive option. 

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Enjoy your 0.0 average damage outside 24".

[Tokugawa]

Daydreaming and baseless wish list is not good for our mental health, brothers.

 

Always remember one thing: Iron hands exist. If a vehicle in IH is "balanced" or "competitive", then the same vehicle with same option and same cost, would possibly become "mediocre" in UM or shooty custom chapters, and "garbage" in melee chapters. It can't satisfy everyone at the same time. If you play a melee chapter and want to play a tank comfortably, the same tank maybe already crazy imba under IH rules.

[XeonDragon]

This is also true, and also very enjoyable when it is our units that are sitting more than 24" away from a multi-melta :D

Enjoy your 0.0 average damage outside 24".

[Closet Skeleton]

 

That said Marine vehicles pay a 5 point premium on heavy weapons.

 

 

Guard are paying that too, as are probably most books. It just only really has a big effect on things with multiple sponsons.

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

 

 

 

That said Marine vehicles pay a 5 point premium on heavy weapons.

 

Guard are paying that too, as are probably most books. It just only really has a big effect on things with multiple sponsons.

1) I would want that tax gone for everyone, infantry have enough advantages that's not needed.

 

2) I think the vehicles with multiple sponsors are the for the most part the worst vehicles. So it's a good targeted buff.

[Karhedron]

It is certainly a start but that would only reduce the cost of a quad-las Predator by 10 points. You would need to look at the price of the inbuilt weapons also. If you took off another 10 for the TLLC on the turret it would bring the total price down to 150 points, the same price as a Dev squad with 4 lascannons

 

The Devs are easer to buff as they are Core and can make better use of terrain for cover. The Predator is more mobile. The Predator is a bit tougher with 11W at T7 vs 10W at T4 but a hit from a melta weapon will take a big chunk out of a Predator while it will only kill 1 Marine. If I have points left at the end of list building, I have been known to chuck an extra body or two on my Dev squad as ablative wounds.

 

What do people think? If Predators cost the same as an equivalently armed Dev squad, would they be worth considering? I certainly don't think they would be too good but they might just be good enough to get a look-in.

[Tokugawa]

It is certainly a start but that would only reduce the cost of a quad-las Predator by 10 points. You would need to look at the price of the inbuilt weapons also. If you took off another 10 for the TLLC on the turret it would bring the total price down to 150 points, the same price as a Dev squad with 4 lascannons

 

The Devs are easer to buff as they are Core and can make better use of terrain for cover. The Predator is more mobile. The Predator is a bit tougher with 11W at T7 vs 10W at T4 but a hit from a melta weapon will take a big chunk out of a Predator while it will only kill 1 Marine. If I have points left at the end of list building, I have been known to chuck an extra body or two on my Dev squad as ablative wounds.

 

What do people think? If Predators cost the same as an equivalently armed Dev squad, would they be worth considering? I certainly don't think they would be too good but they might just be good enough to get a look-in.

Dev squad sitting in backyard, is never successful in 9th tournaments. Dev squad is usually seen in events today, but they are all in droppod+melta configuration.

[Aurica]

Most of us are aware that our vehicles are very bad at the moment. But if there are no rule changes then we need point reductions.

I had a few discussions how far GW should go.

 

The vehicles what need point reductions imo:

 

- all Gladiators 40

- all Stormspeeders 20

- all Predators 40

- all Land Raiders 50

- all Rhino Variants 20 to 30

- all Repulsors 50

- the Impulsor 30

(maybe the list is not finished).

 

how far would you go#?

 

Rhino drop to 70 Points

Damocles Command Rhino drop to 80 Points

Razorback with HB dropped to 95 Points

Predators Annihilator dropped to 110 Points

Predator Destructor dropped to 120 Points

 

I don't own any Primaris vehicles or have played them and so I can't really comment on those.

 

Although in all honestly, I would prefer making vehicles tankier or not so easy to be locked in battle.   I prefer strategems and maybe some baseline abilities, although baseline abilities are unlikely to happen in the same edition... so my apologies in advance of veering off topic a little.

 

 

Crushing Threads (Baseline ability or 1 CP if Strategem)

Vehicles can only move through enemy infantry units if their strength profile is at least twice the value of the enemy infantry's toughness profile.   It cannot move through friendly units.   The vehicles movement ends if it comes to contact with any units it cannot move through including friendly units or if there is no space to place the vehicle model.

 

Any enemy unit it is able to move through can be attacked by the Vehicle using the Vehicle's profile.  Make one attack for each enemy model that the vehicle moves through.  

 

 

Ramming Speed (Baseline ability or 1CP if Strategem)

Vehicle attempts to use its mass and speed to crush the enemy beneath its tracks.   Roll D6 for each model that it is base contact after the vehicle has completed its charge move.

On a 6, that models takes a mortal wound.    In addition, if the target of the attack has the vehicle or monster keyword +1 to the melee attack roll.  On a wound roll of 6, the melee attack inflicts an additional damage. 

 

Reactive Armor  (1 CP Strategem)

Once per turn, the first time a saving throw is failed for the vehicle.  The damage characteristic of that attack is changed to 0.

 

Extra Armor  (10 Points upgrade or 1 CP Strategem)

The vehicle ignores AP-1 or AP-2 and gains a 6+ Invulnerable save.

 

Comms Uplink (10 Points upgrade or 1 CP Strategem)

The vehicle now gains the core keyword

 

 

Armored Warfare (1 CP Strategem)

Infantry advancing together with tanks are shielded by the larger vehicle.   Vehicle units grant +1 Armor save against shooting attacks to infantry units that are within 6" of the Vehicle.

 

Fire from the Hatches (1 CP for 5 man squad / 2 CP for 10 man squad -  Strategem)

Infantry can now fire out of the transport vehicle.  

Edited October 9, 2021 by Aurica

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

It is certainly a start but that would only reduce the cost of a quad-las Predator by 10 points. You would need to look at the price of the inbuilt weapons also. If you took off another 10 for the TLLC on the turret it would bring the total price down to 150 points, the same price as a Dev squad with 4 lascannons

 

The Devs are easer to buff as they are Core and can make better use of terrain for cover. The Predator is more mobile. The Predator is a bit tougher with 11W at T7 vs 10W at T4 but a hit from a melta weapon will take a big chunk out of a Predator while it will only kill 1 Marine. If I have points left at the end of list building, I have been known to chuck an extra body or two on my Dev squad as ablative wounds.

 

What do people think? If Predators cost the same as an equivalently armed Dev squad, would they be worth considering? I certainly don't think they would be too good but they might just be good enough to get a look-in.

 

 

No I don't think they would be worth 150 points. The issue is that neither unit is really worth it because lascannons just aren't good compared to some of our other options. Obscuring terrain really hurts them, and the damage is not dependable. I think the movement of the predator would help but IMO predators have to be lower than eradicators before people even consider them. Nerfing MM, and Lance style weapons (3+d3) should also be looked at, but if they're left alone and vehicles aren't buffed than predators need to be cheap.

 

In my first list I was suggesting a 20 point drop, and getting rid of the heavy weapon tax (which I do think is charged on the turrent). So a 40 point drop in total which would get them cheaper than eradicators. I would consider them at that price point I don't think they'd be better than drop pod devs, MM attack bikes, or eradicators but they wouldn't feel like a handicap either, 

[Medjugorje]

tbh...

 

now with the new VOW "Uphold for the honor of the emperor" its pretty hard for GW to balance such vehicles. If GW decide to make them cheaper then for most Marines the pointcosts are okay but BT would be OP.