Nullificators v. Cataphractii?

[Astartes Consul]

I'm looking for some modelling and gaming advice on Legion v. Nullificator Terminators for my XIII list. Having the Cataphractii from the Calth both and a selection of FW weapon upgrades, I'm looking to add some terminators and transport to my army over the next couple of months,

 

I really like the lore associated with the Nullificators and the opportunity to kit-bash & give them an alternate paint scheme, but is that a viable reason to use them? Would be really interested to hear of anyone's experience modelling them and how common they are as a unit (I'm guessing not very common). 

 

 

Gaming wise, I'm looking to use them as the main assault / close combat threat in my army for games around the 2,500 point mark, with two different options...

 

Legion Cataphractii Squad - 240pts

Sergeant w/Thunder Hammer, Grenade Harness.

4 Terminators w/ Powers Fists (2), Twin Lightning Claws (1), Chain Fist (1), Heavy Flamer (1).

 

 

OR

 

Legion Nullificator Squad - 300pts

Sergeant w/Thunder Hammer, Grenade Harness.

4 Nullificators w/Aether Shock Mauls (3), Power Fist (1), Toxiferran Flamers (4).

 

Both would be in a Land Raider Phobos - either as a DT or Heavy Support choice depending on the unit - with the standard Armoured Ceramite, Extra Armour & Dozer Blade.  That comes to 255 pts.

 

 

Thoughts?

 

[Cris R]

I have two anti-demon themed lists - a Blood Angels list and a Blackshields one - that both revolve heavily around the Nullifactors and the Nullifactor Primus because I love the lore and have a great story behind both lists. If you're not attached to a specific theme, regular Cataphractiis give you more mileage as an assault unit given that you have multiple options for dealing with different kinds of units, especially when you have access to Power Fists and Chain Fists at far best points cost than what you have on Nullifictors. 

 

If you do go with the Nullifactors, I give a Thunder Hammer. Grenade Harness, and a Toxiferran to the Sarg and do all Power Mauls with three combi-bolters and one Toxiferran for the rest of the unit to keep it reasonably on par in terms of point costs with normal Cataphractii terminators. It's really hard to justify paying 15 points for a Power Fist, so I save those points for other parts of my list. 

 

In terms of modeling, I'm going to model my Blood Angels Nullifactors using the Crimson Paladin units and just swap the arms for regular Cataphractii so it's easier to use Power Mauls and Combi-Bolters. For my Blackshields, it's going to be the standard plastic kit with some custom transfers to match the theme.

 

At the end of the day, though, it's all about the rule of cool and what makes you excited to paint these models.

Edited October 7, 2021 by Cris R

[Spagunk]

If modeling ideas are what you're after:

 

Just a standard plastic cataphractii with a lot of resin special weapons kits to get the necessary shock maul bits. I gave their tox flamers regular ones since their stats are similar to standard flamers.

 

Strat wise, they're really dependent on positioning. The flamers are probably going to be your "surprise" from a deep strike if you can run around with a VOX for that no-scatter. In ZM (where I mainly play), they're a mixed blessing since the hallways don't lend to flamer templates too well.

 

I'd say, see about getting a nullificator primus to pick the hammer hands power and reap that sweet +4 str mauls.
 

Edited October 6, 2021 by Spagunk

[Noctus Cornix]

I've been thinking about ways I could incorporate a unit of Nullifactors into my Word Bearers as sort of a 'Heavy Ashen Circle' unit. 

 

It'd probably be something of similar to the list you guys have been showing off, except I'd take Toxiferran flamers on the full squad. (They're Ashen Circle. They have to!)  That being said, it would've been pretty cool if one member of the squad could take a toxiferno cannon. I understand WHY they didn't, but it still would've been a neat option.

 

A good option (for those of us Legions that don't just have easy access to Teleportation transponders) would be to attach them to a Warmonger. Because of the vital use of the toxiferran flamers, deepstriking them danger-close onto the frontlines by a unit with a nuncio vox would probably be an ideal option. Then you just come down and wash a unit of enemies away in a tide of cleansing fire.

Edited October 7, 2021 by Noctus Cornix

[SkimaskMohawk]

So in pure game terms, if you want a main melee unit out of your terminators, then you'll want 5x chainfists for 225. The flamer especially doesn't do too much for ultramarine cataphractii and neither does the grenade harness with one pair of lightning claws.

 

Nullificators are very much a specialist unit. I wouldn't recommend making your first terminator unit into them unless you play against a lot of daemons or psykers. Their fists being triple the price of a normal terminator's doesn't help too much either.

[Spagunk]

The flamers have "rending light" though so having ap2 flamers isn't nothing.

[SkimaskMohawk]

I think you're replying to me, but I didn't mention the toxiferrum flamers; I was talking about the heavy flamer on the legion squad.

 

But I might as well mention that if the goal was to have the terminator unit be the main cc threat, then having their output come from shooting is...not that.

[Spagunk]

Yes I was but I was referring to your comment "unless you play against a lot of daemons or psykers" which implies the flamers as those are the only weapons that are demon/psycher interacting. The mauls just have deflagrate which is unit agnostic: it goes off for everyone.

Edited October 7, 2021 by Spagunk

[Bung]

I think the Nullificators are usefull.

The Toxiferran Flamers still Work like heavy Flamers with Rending. They may so alot of wounds.

But the Mauls Work great If you combine them with some Rad Missles / Grenades.

[SkimaskMohawk]

Yes I was but I was referring to your comment "unless you play against a lot of daemons or psykers" which implies the flamers as those are the only weapons that are demon/psycher interacting. The mauls just have deflagrate which is unit agnostic: it goes off for everyone.

?

 

Their special rules interact with them, especially hexagrammatic wards. Rerolling invuls isn't something to forget.

[Spagunk]

 

Yes I was but I was referring to your comment "unless you play against a lot of daemons or psykers" which implies the flamers as those are the only weapons that are demon/psycher interacting. The mauls just have deflagrate which is unit agnostic: it goes off for everyone.

?

 

Their special rules interact with them, especially hexagrammatic wards. Rerolling invuls isn't something to forget.

 

 

But you dismiss the guys as a specialist unit for Demons which is not quite right. The unit can all have "potentially" ap2 flamers and deflag mauls which are just as effective against normal troops as demons. I played them against non-demons and they made my opponent pause for fear of the charge and the ap2 flamer wall. Though the re-roll inv. save is nice, you're taking them for the damage they can do: having protection from Demons and then also being able to turn off psyker buffs is just icing on the cake.

 

They're fine, even as a first time unit. Just takes a bit of use since they don't play like standard terminators. Yes you pay more for fists but then that's the balancing act, yes? 

Edited October 8, 2021 by Spagunk

[SkimaskMohawk]

I think we're missing each other with our terminology.

 

To me, a "main assault unit" is able to fight anything in assault; you take it to square off against any target and chainfists offer just that.

 

A specialist unit is something that excels in a particular role. Deflagrate mauls don't let you fight a large array of targets; they're better against particular unit types. Powerfists also fall under this category to a lesser extent, as you can't reliably damage the heaviest vehicles like Spartans and leviathans. Even with flamers (which goes outside being a melee unit), you can still only reliably threaten infantry. Ergo, nullificators specialize in fighting light to heavy infantry.

 

So what I said is "nulls are very much a specialist unit", and by the targets they're able to engage that's largely true. I then said "I wouldn't recommend them as your first terminator unit unless you play against daemons or psykers", but that doesn't mean I think that's their specialism per se; it means you can leverage their special rules a lot more and make them have more value than the cheaper, more generalist chainfist cataphractii.

 

And being able to leverage their cost in comparison to their intended function is the important part here. Without their rules, base unit, you're paying the same for the deflag maul as a normal chainfist terminator;even accounting for deflag, the chainfist averages more than double the unsaved wounds against power armour, and is obviously worse against terminators and vehicles; why are you taking nulls as your main assault unit then?

[Spagunk]

"Assault unit" does indeed mean different things as there are "Melee" assault units but also the general "assault" of close range. Support squads or Angel Tear's "assault cannon" squads come to mind as a unit analogy where they have weapons for the purpose of ranged assault but not specifically melee. They're still assault units but not gear for the assault phase, if you see what I mean.

 

As a melee assault unit, deflagrate mauls means you're getting ~1.25 to 1.5x as many hits as a similar maul unit. The fists appear to be higher costs only for balance purpose as getting stuck without the means to smack a dread always stinks. They pay more for fists but its obvious GW never wanted to have them be good at everything or even just be a copy cat of normal terminators. I still don't think this means they're particularly specialized in the way that Crimson Paladins are specialized or Siege Tyrants or something similar. Again, they look fine to me, even as someone's first terminator squad. They've got enough generalization ability to break out of a specialist role and be a generalist unit. Legion termie squads (with the exception of Justerin) are kinda "meh" anyway so adding some pepper to a unit type doesn't make it an entirely new dish, if you know what I mean.

 

Also keep in mind that they benefit from having a higher WS sarge (who has an extra point of attack), a higher leadership value and a better power maul. Being 50 pts more isn't so bad in that context but its different enough from a normal squad to be an interesting change from your normal round of terminators.

[SkimaskMohawk]

Idk what mental gymnastics you're going through to avoid admitting you just conflated a bunch of things I said. The common colloquialism for assault is melee, as the phase where close combat happens is called the assault phase. When used in the phrase "main assault/close combat threat", it indicates that the op is asking about melee and not an equivalent ranged unit to suspensored assault cannons.

 

Now let's get into points efficiencies. A normal maul averages 0.41 unsaved wounds off the charge, while a null averages 0.52; you're correct in that it's ~1.25 more than the standard. But that standard is terrible to start with; a sword averages 0.75, and an axe 0.99. If we're still going along with the idea to take nulls as the first melee choice, regardless of daemons, I have to ask why you're paying almost 25% more for half the result against the most common targets. Let's not even get into the cost of arming them with fists where it's a 75 point difference for...0.9 wounds because of the seargent.

 

Oh ya, and they don't score, so they're losing out on one of the biggest reasons why terminators are a good unit; the combination of scoring on an extremely points efficient and relatively durable base doesn't really exist anywhere else.

Edited October 8, 2021 by SkimaskMohawk

[Gorgoff]

1. Forgeworld makes the game and all of it's rules so far. Please stop saying that GW did any of it or intended such and such. It may sound tidious but it's wrong. ;)

 

2. "they look fine to me, even as someone's first terminator squad."

If your Main opponents are demons, Imperialis Militia Militia and Solar Auxilia then yes, it is a good assault unit.

Against Astartes they are pretty much useless. Yes, they obviously can kill vehicles with AV10 in the back or small units like Seekers, but they do badly against lost of units. The regular Terminator unit is just plain better because you can make them so what you want them to. Nulls Job is to kill demons and humans and you pay premium to maje them do other jobs like with all specialized units.

[Mogsam]

I love Nullificators, but their lack of dedicated transports while wearing Cataphractii means I usually leave them at home sadly.

 

Love deflagerate mauls and the tox, but they're pricy and take up a much needed heavy/fast slot.

 

Then again, I rarely take terminators either as they're too easy to kill!

[Lucien Eilam]

Forgeworld makes the game and all of it's rules so far. Please stop saying that GW did any of it or intended such and such. It may sound tidious but it's wrong.

 

Forge World is GW. Forge World isn’t the Design Studio, or the Citadel Design Team, but they’re all GW.

[Gorgoff]

 

Forgeworld makes the game and all of it's rules so far. Please stop saying that GW did any of it or intended such and such. It may sound tidious but it's wrong.

Forge World is GW. Forge World isn’t the Design Studio, or the Citadel Design Team, but they’re all GW.

And Škoda is the same corporation like Audi, and therefore if a new model comes you say something along the line like "Audi made a new car" yes?

That is just wrong.

Different team, different approach, different rules. And if it is true what people say who worked there, they don't even talk that much. So no, it is not the same.

Edited October 9, 2021 by Gorgoff

[SkimaskMohawk]

Then again, I rarely take terminators either as they're too easy to kill!

I see this floated around quite a bit and it always makes me curious. What other infantry can you take thats harder to kill for that price point? Is it just mech-marines? Or everything castling in area terrain?

 

Theres a very big X factor which is sufficient terrain coverage and placement, including central los blockers. That tends to recalibrate a lot of perceived strengths of static ranged lists.

[Gorgoff]

 

Then again, I rarely take terminators either as they're too easy to kill!

I see this floated around quite a bit and it always makes me curious. What other infantry can you take thats harder to kill for that price point? Is it just mech-marines? Or everything castling in area terrain?

 

Theres a very big X factor which is sufficient terrain coverage and placement, including central los blockers. That tends to recalibrate a lot of perceived strengths of static ranged lists.

My experience with players who say that kind of thing is, that people tend to put Terminators in situations where they can't survive and wonder how fast they die. I mean the math is pretty clear. You need buckets of strength four shots/hits (the most common kind of hits in the game) to kill a squad of five terminators. I guess it is a combination of empty tables reckless use of those squads. A five men terminator squad with combi-plasmaguns who pops up behind enemy lines and starts harassing support units won't get killed a lot in my experience. It's hard to get the firepower to achieve this there. A unit which is on foot and tries a frontal assault on the enemy on the other hand dies pretty fast because they get the attention of the whole enemy army.

[Mogsam]

That's not the case at all. It's just simply that the odds of making a 2+ save aren't that much better than making a 3+ save and the hard reality of heresy is that more dice kill things. When you only have 5 guys in a squad, each one hurts.

 

If the options are 400 points of terminators in a land raider or multiple other squads for 400 points, I know which one I'd rather have. I'll take whatever option makes them have to split dice.

[Lautrec the Embraced]

Well, on the contrary I reckon the odds of not making a 3+ actually are that much worse than a 2+... I say you'd be hard pressed to find better value squads when you consider both defensive and offensive capabilities. And losing tooled up, 3+ save veterans or equivalent hurts even more as they are not particularly cheaper than Termis while failing a lot more checks and lacking inv. But being a smaller squad surely is detrimental.

 

And tbh I find Terminators more appealing when the terrain is somehow lacking. Otherwise it's fairly easy to get some nice cover, so why exactly am I to pay a lot for what effectively is the same save, albeit invulnerable?

Edited October 9, 2021 by Lautrec the Embraced

[Gorgoff]

That's not the case at all. It's just simply that the odds of making a 2+ save aren't that much better than making a 3+ save and the hard reality of heresy is that more dice kill things. When you only have 5 guys in a squad, each one hurts.

 

If the options are 400 points of terminators in a land raider or multiple other squads for 400 points, I know which one I'd rather have. I'll take whatever option makes them have to split dice.

Playing 5 Terminators in a Land Raider is the exact example I gave on how not to use terminators if you want them to survive. You pretty much agreed on what I was saying. ;)

 

Regard the chances:

Killing 5 PA men needs 15 wounds, need 30 hits with s4, need 45 shots.

Killing 5 TDA men need 30 wounds, need 60 hits need 90 shots.

In what world is that "not that much better"?

You need the double amount of shots to kill these and in addition to that there are way more weapons who ignore 3+ than 2+. Plus the fact that terminators have a invulnerable save and already build in power weapons and kombi bolters. They are more killy and they are much tougher. You just need to know how to use them.

Like I said. Give them jobs they excel in and don't just throw them at the opponent.

Edited October 10, 2021 by Gorgoff

[Cris R]

 

Then again, I rarely take terminators either as they're too easy to kill!

I see this floated around quite a bit and it always makes me curious. What other infantry can you take thats harder to kill for that price point? Is it just mech-marines? Or everything castling in area terrain?

 

Theres a very big X factor which is sufficient terrain coverage and placement, including central los blockers. That tends to recalibrate a lot of perceived strengths of static ranged lists.

 

To add the last point, game sizes/formats, Legion abilities, and Rites of War definitely impact the efficiency of using Terminators. Playing them in 1,000 point ZM games versus a 3,000 point ones with different LAs and RoWs alters that calculus, especially when considering alternatives in your lists and the types of units you'll be facing. I'm not a mathammer person, so I'll defer to others who can do these calculations better than me, but it's still a relevant point to consider here.