Unique Units: And What Should They Do

[Schlitzaf]

So spin off couple other threads.

But to start off a few rules:

-No whining about lack of Special Units

-A Unique Unit is defined for this thread

•Character with Unique Rules (ie Special Rules Unique and not just unique loadout)

-see Silver Templars and BL Hammerlord, various chapter specific liutanent for latter

•Datasheet Unique Loadout (See BA AM getting Specials)

•”Units” given unique capabilites to the chapter (BA DC Rules, and Specialist Detachments)

-inner circle interaction with DA is a fuzzy line

•Competitive Needed Shouldn’t be a Consideration

•Elite Unique Units should NOT be coverable by following options without an extensive explanation:

-Vangaurd Veterans (Generic Melee)

-Sterngaurd Veterans (Generic Shooty)

-Company Veterans (Customizable Vets, geared to player preference)

•CoolBiker W/ Cool Weapon (CVet Bikers Legend)

 

——————

All that out of rhe way a unique unit should do two things:

-Better Enable a player to facilitate their subfaction unique tactical doctrine

•Tactical Doctrine NOT army Composition. How an army play not what it is composed of

-Highlight the Faction unique aethestics in a way to promote their faction style of play at a glance

-Inform the Player what a Faction Is

 

The example I use is classic 4th-8th Crusader Squad represented the Templar preference for melee given power weapon options, the chapter core dogma as flexibility and band of brotherhood.

 

Eschewing traditional squad mandates sizes, faux devi, but also mixing three models types into the squad gave the army a far more ad hoc feel then the more traditionally organized Astartes Factions. Even post F&F, that has remained either through certain upgrades randomly cheaper albeit argueably typo’d or that we retained a certain flexibility of gear options.

 

Vigilus SBro Detachment using CVet another example of Templars core dogma being flexibility. But also highlights how differ from other melee chapters in that we aren’t charging McCharge. Our slamganius equivalent kept his bonus or could his abilities any round and not just if he charged.

 

Blood Angels provide another easy example, Sanguinary Units, with their jump packs highlight motif of angels. But also “Live Fast”/Speed aspect. And their names also Sanguine means Blood. Which plays into how theh get their endurance via FNP saves. Making them focus on the “heroes” or your agency. Passing your FNP and the Deep Strike into “cavalry has arrived”.

 

DA defense buffs are about taking enemy agency so we see not the individualized toughness but the army toughness. But also the flexibility of their squads (deathwing terminator), DA are less a combined arms of traditional marines and more solo operations. And hunt for the fallen requires solo operations.

 

Khan on Bike, as a final example. Has an on Charge Weapon and well rides a Bike. This is important because their CT are fallback&advance and can still charge. The Khan rules working the way they do illustrate the constant charging (not something unique to Scars). But flexibility of their doctrine. Sense you can fallback far enough to charge another unit. And you ‘real’ guns too. So you can kite a bit as well.

 

So question for thread:

What unique units? And why? How would these unique units highlight factionally specific design playstyle.

[TheNewman]

Ruling out "Cool Biker w/ Cool Biker weapon" is tough for White Scars because they're White Scars and that's the first place the mind goes with them, but the thing Scars are supposed to do in the fluff that they really can't do on the table is hit-and-run warfare, and boars sizes and IGOUGO don't lend themselves to allowing it.

 

Such a thing could be done (say, Outrider Dragoons with Bolt Rifles instead of Chainswords and the Eliminator's fire and fade rule), but it would be incredibly obnoxious to be on the receiving end. Although Dark Angels have a strat that's worse so what the hey.

Edited October 7, 2021 by TheNewman

[Bryan Blaire]

If your idea is to get people to talk about new units going forward where we see GW remaking units into Primaris types or making Primaris types that cover some of the classic Astartes lines, then you shouldn’t have those restrictions on discussing shooty, melee, mixed weapon, or bike units like you have, Shlitzaf - because those are exactly the kinds of things we could see GW making unique Primaris units for Chapters/gene-lines.

 

I’d go so far as to say that these would even be how I’d line them up were I GW:

Imperial Fists - unique shooty unit

Raven Guard - unique melee unit with jump packs

Iron Hands - either shooty or mixed weapon unit

White Scars - customizable bike weaponry and rules unit

Salamanders - unique mixed weapon unit

Ultramarines - unique shooty or mixed weapon unit

Blood Angels - unique mixed weapon unit with jump packs

Dark Angels - unique mixed weapon unit in Gravis armor

Space Wolves - unique mixed weapon unit

 

If that’s definitely not what you want to discuss though, I’ll bow out - there’s virtually no reason to discuss with those restrictions in place.

[Helias_Tancred]

At risk of being labeled a luddite, I feel that if you want truly unique marine units you play a non-codex compliant chapter such as Dark Angels, Blood Angels, or Space Wolves. Or Black Templars in this case the Crusade Squad.

 

I see some codex compliant chapters having a suitable perk based on their lore; Salamanders having access to heavy flamers as a devastator squad weapon and in tactical squads, Raven Guard being able to gear a command squad or characters (including primaris) found in a "command squad" with jump packs, etc. But creating new unique units for each chapter, that's a tall order when there's more needed additions to the new marine line. We need a primaris "veteran" box that has a tool kit of special weapons, combo-weapons, jump packs, etc. and the unit write ups for them- veteran primaris squad on foot, or with jump packs. As seen from the expanded Black Templar release, we need bigger upgrade sprues for the other chapters with more pieces to suited to each chapter and used to make them look more unique.

[Bryan Blaire]

play a non-codex compliant chapter such as Dark Angels, Blood Angels, or Space Wolves. Or Black Templars in this case the Crusade Squad.

It’s not a matter of being a Luddite, but given the new material for Primaris, there’s almost nothing non-Codex compliant about the Dark Angels or Blood Angels, or really much that isn’t about the Space Wolves now.  Even the structure of “Codex compliant” companies and squads have changed, so the BA, DA, and SW are now in good company by being different almost exclusively in how they wage war wholesale (similar to how all the other Chapters/gene-lines are).

 

About the most non-compliant thing on the table at this point is the BT with their youngins embedded in their standard squads and the Space Wolves’ method of organizing their companies and standard template Astartes squads.

 

Dark Angels are actually almost completely Codex compliant specifically in an effort to hide their issues, a lot of their non-compliance comes in how they utilize wargear and staff their 2nd Company with more elite brethren than most Chapters staff their 7th Company with (basically “Yay, we changed a company number and made them more elite!”) - their internal semi-Legion connecting structure doesn’t count - it’s larger than the Chapter.  In effect, you’d have to argue that the entire gene-line is Codex non-compliant, not just the Chapter (and I’d agree, but it is also a background structure outside the Chapter, and gives a reason they wage war, and how they do it differently, but doesn’t structurally change the individual Chapters into non-compliant entities in their own right).

 

Blood Angels only real non-compliance is their gene-seed and psychic scarring - virtually nothing about their structure is non-compliant - the Iron Hands were actually written as more structurally non-compliant than the BA were for a while in the history of 40K.  Really the only thing different about the DA and BA is how they organize their units for combat on the battle scale and what materiel they do that with.

 

So coming back to unique Primaris units (because we are very unlikely to get unique standard template Astartes ones at this point) - it’s not a tall order to give the other Chapters unique ones - and it could be done in conjunction with expanded Chapter specific upgrade kits.

 

There’s nothing needed about a Primaris veterans box, if GW really wants to start differentiating things.  They could differentiate the gene-lines easily with making veteran upgrades unique to each chapter in a Chapter/gene-line specific upgrade kit, or having the unique veteran units to each Chapter/gene-line be the Chapter specific upgrade kit.

[phandaal]

Want more cool bikers with cool weapons.

 

Extensive explanation: Ravenwing go fast and hunt monster, make me feel like knight in spooky forest.

[TheNewman]

 

 

play a non-codex compliant chapter such as Dark Angels, Blood Angels, or Space Wolves. Or Black Templars in this case the Crusade Squad.

It’s not a matter of being a Luddite, but given the new material for Primaris, there’s almost nothing non-Codex compliant about the Dark Angels or Blood Angels, or really much that isn’t about the Space Wolves now. Even the structure of “Codex compliant” companies and squads have changed, so the BA, DA, and SW are now in good company by being different almost exclusively in how they wage war wholesale (similar to how all the other Chapters/gene-lines are).

 

[clip]

You know, that's an interesting point. If you saw the release of Primaris Marines, read between the lines (accurately or not) and didn't buy any non-Primaris units, then your collection would transition between the compliant and non-compliant chapters without a hiccup.

[Schlitzaf]

If your idea is to get people to talk about new units going forward where we see GW remaking units into Primaris types or making Primaris types that cover some of the classic Astartes lines, then you shouldn’t have those restrictions on discussing shooty, melee, mixed weapon, or bike units like you have, Shlitzaf - because those are exactly the kinds of things we could see GW making unique Primaris units for Chapters/gene-lines.

 

I’d go so far as to say that these would even be how I’d line them up were I GW:

Imperial Fists - unique shooty unit

Raven Guard - unique melee unit with jump packs

Iron Hands - either shooty or mixed weapon unit

White Scars - customizable bike weaponry and rules unit

Salamanders - unique mixed weapon unit

Ultramarines - unique shooty or mixed weapon unit

Blood Angels - unique mixed weapon unit with jump packs

Dark Angels - unique mixed weapon unit in Gravis armor

Space Wolves - unique mixed weapon unit

 

If that’s definitely not what you want to discuss though, I’ll bow out - there’s virtually no reason to discuss with those restrictions in place.

Its more I don’t want:

InsertHeresyUnit “why?”

“Because I want Unique Veterans”

 

If the answer is Unique Veteran Unit, it should offer something that makes it unique beside being “Vangaurd but with bionic heads”. A unique veteran unit should highlight why that veteran is unique and support chapter desired playstyle.

Edited October 7, 2021 by Schlitzaf

[Subtleknife]

I would love a Unit of Primaris Invictarus Suzerains for the Ultramarines.

 

My second wish would be for a Primaris Fulmentarus Terminator squad. This would be on the proviso that primaris eventually get terminators. These guys would come equipped with missile launchers galore so they can mix it up close with power weapons or far away with the launchers. Again Ultra specific.

Edited October 7, 2021 by Subtleknife

[Schlitzaf]

I would love a Unit of Primaris Invictarus Suzerains for the Ultramarines.

 

My second wish would be for a Primaris Fulmentarus Terminator squad. This would be on the proviso that primaris eventually get terminators. These guys would come equipped with missile launchers galore so they can mix it up close with power weapons or far away with the launchers. Again Ultra specific.

Okay, so how does promote the ultramarine playstyle which is very focused on danger close, rapid firing? 

[XeonDragon]

For Raven Guard I'd like to see:

 

• A unique, mobile sniper unit. Something that can move-shoot-move, maybe natively deep strike. Something like Mor Deythan, but with grav-shutes.
• Mor Deythan. 'Nuff said.
• Unique melee units, a bit like Sanguinary Guard. Maybe build them around charge-melee then move again after pile in etc. So instead of move-shoot-move, they are charge-fight-charge or charge-fight-move. 
• Stealthy terminators. Something fast and unique. Maybe give them a 3+, 6++ and 6+++ instead of 2+ and 5++. Each with a short-range 'silenced bolter' and a lightning claw, or something like that.
• Sniper sergeants: allow a points-upgrade (along the lines of chapter command upgrades) to turn a sergeant into a mini-character with a sniper rifle of some sort and the ability for him, and him alone in his unit, to ignore the look-out-sir rule. (Intercessor sergeant sniping at a Kelermorph whilst the rest of the squad fires into acolyte hybrids? yes please!)
• Special stealthy hover biker units for the 3rd company (in-built -1 to hit, native fall back and shoot or charge etc.)
• Sabotage specialists. Basically tactical marines that can use the deadly prize stratagem free once per turn, and that use not count to the usual 1-stratagem per turn/phase limit. Maybe also allow them to (if they perform an action) place an objective-sized marker down that replicates the deadly prize stratagem from it (i.e. they can run around placing bombs in the way).

Slightly off topic, but I'd also like to see Raven Guard have access to unique weapons on existing units, a bit like how Blood Angels get inferno pistols. Something like being able to equip any infantry model with a camo cloak for 1 or 2 points (stalker rifle intercessors with camo cloaks? Yes please!). Maybe allowing infantry to take combat knives (with or without granting an extra attack) for 1 or 2 points (Intercessors with AP-1 knives like incursors? Yes please!). Adding a S5 sniper rifle to the list of weapons that various units that can take a combi or special weapon can take. Melta bombs as low-cost upgrade for any infantry unit.

[XeonDragon]

Can you point me to the rules/sources that allow RG to put jump packs on command characters?

Raven Guard being able to gear a command squad or characters (including primaris) found in a "command squad" with jump packs, etc. .

[Schlitzaf]

For Raven Guard I'd like to see:

 

• A unique, mobile sniper unit. Something that can move-shoot-move, maybe natively deep strike. Something like Mor Deythan, but with grav-shutes.
• Mor Deythan. 'Nuff said.
• Unique melee units, a bit like Sanguinary Guard. Maybe build them around charge-melee then move again after pile in etc. So instead of move-shoot-move, they are charge-fight-charge or charge-fight-move. 
• Stealthy terminators. Something fast and unique. Maybe give them a 3+, 6++ and 6+++ instead of 2+ and 5++. Each with a short-range 'silenced bolter' and a lightning claw, or something like that.
• Sniper sergeants: allow a points-upgrade (along the lines of chapter command upgrades) to turn a sergeant into a mini-character with a sniper rifle of some sort and the ability for him, and him alone in his unit, to ignore the look-out-sir rule. (Intercessor sergeant sniping at a Kelermorph whilst the rest of the squad fires into acolyte hybrids? yes please!)
• Special stealthy hover biker units for the 3rd company (in-built -1 to hit, native fall back and shoot or charge etc.)
• Sabotage specialists. Basically tactical marines that can use the deadly prize stratagem free once per turn, and that use not count to the usual 1-stratagem per turn/phase limit. Maybe also allow them to (if they perform an action) place an objective-sized marker down that replicates the deadly prize stratagem from it (i.e. they can run around placing bombs in the way).

Slightly off topic, but I'd also like to see Raven Guard have access to unique weapons on existing units, a bit like how Blood Angels get inferno pistols. Something like being able to equip any infantry model with a camo cloak for 1 or 2 points (stalker rifle intercessors with camo cloaks? Yes please!). Maybe allowing infantry to take combat knives (with or without granting an extra attack) for 1 or 2 points (Intercessors with AP-1 knives like incursors? Yes please!). Adding a S5 sniper rifle to the list of weapons that various units that can take a combi or special weapon can take. Melta bombs as low-cost upgrade for any infantry unit.

 

@Bryan Blaire this is exactly kind of discussion or post to foster or thoughts to provoke. Concept/UU > How It Fits > What it is

[Captain Idaho]

As an Ultramarines player I'd love something new for Firstborn Sternguard.

 

But really, with the HH reboot what I'd like to see the models I get from there (Destroyers, Breachers etc) to have rules ported over to 40K so I can double up on my collection and give me an incentive to buy more.

 

Then we can have all sorts of releases for individual Chapters. ;)

[Subtleknife]

 

 

I would love a Unit of Primaris Invictarus Suzerains for the Ultramarines.

 

My second wish would be for a Primaris Fulmentarus Terminator squad. This would be on the proviso that primaris eventually get terminators. These guys would come equipped with missile launchers galore so they can mix it up close with power weapons or far away with the launchers. Again Ultra specific.

Okay, so how does promote the ultramarine playstyle which is very focused on danger close, rapid firing?

Because it creates flexibility...this is what Ultramarines supplement should be promoting. I would argue the last suplement did this poorly.

[Orange Knight]

The Ultramarines are a tricky one in my opinion. I had a look at their Horus Heresy unit selection, and would argue that Bladeguard are already a modernised version of the Invictarus Suzerein squads.

 

What unit could they receive in a supplement? A close fire support unit would be my guess.

 

A Primaris veteran unit that resembles the classic Sterguard. All armed with Damage 2 Bolt Rifles, and with the option of taking exotic ranged and close combat weapons.

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

I was just in a double tournament with my buddy. I ran Wolves and he ran Ultramarines, and if I'm being honest it felt like he didn't have a chapter tactic. He had a great super doctrine (the tournament treated both our forces as separate armies) but the leadership buff and the retreat and shoot ability felt pointless.

 

I think that makes this exercise difficult for them. I mean for wolves the chapter tactic rewards CC, and HI reinforces that while adding some board control elements. Based on that a squad similar to sword brethren with a rule that let them HI 6" or a bodyguard style rule would fit like a glove. With Ultramarines I wouldn't know where to start.

 

Personally the themes for the army seem to be flexibility and close range. So they have a lot of options to make Ultramarines interesting. If it were up to me they'd get a bonus to hit if they were within a certain range (like 10" or something) instead of fall back and charge. Then you could give them something similar to HH breacher squads, so some sort of shield, combi-weapons, and maybe powerswords.  It would be a pretty big power up, but I think with the Templar Vows we should expect that.

[Orange Knight]

Having seen how impressive the abilities of chapters like the Dark Angels and the Black Templars have been, I do expect to see some changed to the other chapters in the codex.

[XeonDragon]

Yeah, agreed. A fair few of the veterans in my local meta often tell new players that UM are good to start on, because fall back and shoot is so flexible (most others have to spend CP), and lets you figure out your play style, then change. They are a good 'learning' army, whereas BA and RG (for example) really require you to lean into melee and movement/board control respectively to get the most out of them. 

 

Hopefully future SM releases find a balance between giving good super doctrines and abilities and not going OP. RG and UM could both definitely do with a boost. 

 

I was just in a double tournament with my buddy. I ran Wolves and he ran Ultramarines, and if I'm being honest it felt like he didn't have a chapter tactic. He had a great super doctrine (the tournament treated both our forces as separate armies) but the leadership buff and the retreat and shoot ability felt pointless.

 

I think that makes this exercise difficult for them. I mean for wolves the chapter tactic rewards CC, and HI reinforces that while adding some board control elements. Based on that a squad similar to sword brethren with a rule that let them HI 6" or a bodyguard style rule would fit like a glove. With Ultramarines I wouldn't know where to start.

 

Personally the themes for the army seem to be flexibility and close range. So they have a lot of options to make Ultramarines interesting. If it were up to me they'd get a bonus to hit if they were within a certain range (like 10" or something) instead of fall back and charge. Then you could give them something similar to HH breacher squads, so some sort of shield, combi-weapons, and maybe powerswords.  It would be a pretty big power up, but I think with the Templar Vows we should expect that.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

Ya know what I want for BA as a primaris unique unit?

Imagine an inceptor squad, but replace one of the incinerators with a blade encarmine, or lightening claws, or powerfists.

[Schlitzaf]

Ya know what I want for BA as a primaris unique unit?

Imagine an inceptor squad, but replace one of the incinerators with a blade encarmine, or lightening claws, or powerfists.

1) How would represent the style of play for BA?

2) How would it further their aethestical motif?

 

I know answer self evident but want to keep thread on track

Edited October 11, 2021 by Schlitzaf

[Blindhamster]

realistically, blood angels unique units (much like DA and SW) if they get actual kit based units, will be updates on existing ones. Expecting anything else seems a bit silly.

 

So DA would likely get some kind of ravenwing black knight type kit and probably a deathwing type kit (either aggressor based or if primaris get a terminator update, they'd get them then).

Wolves would likely get a wolf pack kit (probably capable of building something akin to grey hunters or blood claws) and perhaps a kit for new wolf riders

 

BA would get a death company kit, perhaps with a stronger emphasis on being savage than current ones have had (the note in the codex has some primaris BA that succumb to the thirst literally tear apart their enemies so violently that even the other BA involved were concerned) and likely sanguinary guard.

 

IF they got actual new units... I've no idea for DA or Wolves.

BA id guess at some kind of fast moving assault unit (especially if DC and SG for reason didn't get the update themselves), jump packs and a weapon thats better on the turn they charge (synergising with the chapter abilities). Personally I don't think the wheel needs to be reinvented for BA, DC Intercessors getting an update to not utterly suck and Sanguinary Guard getting an update to be an interesting bodyguard unit (which is what they are meant to be lore wise) would be plenty for me to be happy.

As far as other chapters go, I think it's most likely they won't all get brand new actual units (shelf space), but could see them getting units a bit like the Hounds of Morkai or current DC intercessors (i.e. a variant on an existing unit) BUT with some new chapter specific options provided via updated chapter upgrade sprues for each one.

 

I do wonder if part of why DA/SW/BA haven't had existing units updated already is actually because they base unit types needed in primaris havent been done (terminators/assault marines), doesn't really make sense for SW but I think they'd also avoid doing one of those three without also doing the other two relatively close for "the primaris treatment".

[Subtleknife]

DA unit should be a take on knight (as in medieval) like warsuits aka primaris in a mini machine. So a unit of 3. About the same size as the sorrritas paragon units (similar concept too) armed with plasma cannon and blade/mace. They would be the primaris version of death wing.

[Schlitzaf]

DA unit should be a take on knight (as in medieval) like warsuits aka primaris in a mini machine. So a unit of 3. About the same size as the sorrritas paragon units (similar concept too) armed with plasma cannon and blade/mace. They would be the primaris version of death wing.

I don’t feel you read the OP

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

 

DA unit should be a take on knight (as in medieval) like warsuits aka primaris in a mini machine. So a unit of 3. About the same size as the sorrritas paragon units (similar concept too) armed with plasma cannon and blade/mace. They would be the primaris version of death wing.

I don’t feel you read the OP

 

 

In all fairness it fits within your restrictions. Its a unique unit that doesn't overlap with the existing vet options. It'd be durable which fall in line with DA units, has a plasma theme mirroring the chapter, and has some flexibility like the existing DA terminators.

 

I mean he probably doesn't give the depth of answer you might be looking for but he provides a unique unit, answers why (primaris deathwing), describes the unit.

 

Honestly I wouldn't worry too much about the units mirroring the rules to much because I've played long enough for them to change on me several times lol. I also think people underestimate one of the best parts of fraction specific units which is that they bits tend to allow a lot of creative freedom.