Unique Units: And What Should They Do

Schlitzaf · October 11, 2021

I mean my issue is my first reaponse “okay so Centurions exist?” Deathwing two factors are durability, flexibility base squads, and deep striking. And having one squad do thing of many. What I hear him describing is a centurion with Deathwing keyword. Which is fine, but he should elaborate on why or it adds. Its not asking world. SwordBros in this regard fit into dynamic due to ignoring passions.

Through tbf the ooint of having “added” descriptions to avoid this being wishlist.thread

Edited October 11, 2021 by Schlitzaf

Argonte · October 11, 2021

For imperial fist i think phalanx warders, a gravis elite unit with bolter/shotgun and shield or power weapon and shield that provide always cover (dense and light) to core units in 6" and if they dont move they get -1 to wound (shield wall) and the defensible and heavy terrain bonus.

The point of the unit is to be a bulwark in objetives and a utility defensive bonus to the army while moving.

phandaal · October 12, 2021

In another thread there's a picture of a Primaris Marine matched up with Horus Heresy armor showing their similarities.

Right now there's no Primaris analogue for Tartaros Terminator armor.

Might work in this case. Scaled up Tartaros style. Give them some Deathwing iconography and those weapons, it'd look pretty cool.

Sarvis · October 12, 2021

I just saw that, was comparing mk 4 to mk X. My only issue is that I think tartaros is the ugliest iteration of terminator armor :/

Subtleknife · October 12, 2021

I feel like I did and it fits within your very broad parameters. You want to discuss unique units or get hung up on your arbitrary rules which I have stuck too? Edited October 12, 2021 by Subtleknife

Matthew Purton · October 12, 2021

I'd like to see a jetbike unit for White Scars, armed with a couple of auto bolt rifles and master crafted power weapons, for 2 damage. Having the fly key word on a unit that has speed would allow you utilise both their normal/advance move, fall back and charge far better and lets you lean into the hit and run style a bit easier. The damage 2 weapons helps enhance their plus one damage on the charge in assault doctrine against armies like Deathguard with army wide damage reduction rules. Style wise they could give a nod to the golden keshig of the heresy.

Schlitzaf · October 12, 2021

You did not: You did not say how these new units would reflect or demonstrate deathwing playstyle, you did not say how these units would seperate themselves from other units in the codex. Point of those rules is to stop blatant wishlisting. And provide thoughtful ideas of a new unit beside blatantly “cool unit with cool stuff”. See White Scar unit posted above

phandaal · October 12, 2021

Haha yeah my wife says "those guys look like astronauts!" That's Deathwing colors for ya. Edited October 12, 2021 by phandaal

Subtleknife · October 12, 2021

But I have though...another poster even outlined it as well. Maybe define your rules better in future. I'm not wasting more time here. Edited October 12, 2021 by Subtleknife

Schlitzaf · October 12, 2021

Phandaal did an excellent job extending why and how it fit in Subtleknife. @Phandaal good job. Like that part is more important part of the thread here NOT the unit itself. No one else had trouble doing this Subtle.

phandaal · October 12, 2021

Thank you. Although maybe being a little less combative would be a good idea. Catch more flies with honey and all that.

Jacques Corbin · October 13, 2021

Well, for Raven Guard, I want it simple. Give me Phobos armored Astartes with Lightning Claws similar to Shrike's, y'know retractable like his so they can fire a pistol or throw a grenade. I want to play jump pack ninjas in this new era of Primaris.

For pistols, give them either the Assault Intercessors pistol or the Reiver pistol. Now, if they could also take 1 Pyreblaster, or 1 Melta Rifle, per 5, that would be awesome. I also want to see the Sergeant and 2 Astartes special pistol option too. Plasma is a given, maybe Grav, but how about some Volkite?!

People forget, Deliverance is a moon orbiting Khiavir, a planet that is essentially a forge world. It's why we had quiet jump packs, and other crazy tech.

I just want a unit to accompany Shrike. To drop in with him, fly around with him, and slice & dice with him. You could do a barebones squad of 5 with some kind of Bolt Pistol and Lightning Claws, or the Sergeant and 2 Astartes could take (Neo) Volkite Pistols, or take 2 Pyreblasters and the pistol version on the Sergeant. Blood Angel players will :cuss but I want the Melta Rifle option at 1 per 5 models. It would not be enough to kill most vehicles, but it might degrade it enough to make for decent sabotage before they are shot off the table. Finally give them a stratagem that imposes an additional -1 to hit, or only hit on unmodified 6s to hit, for any stratagems of wargear that allow an enemy unit to shoot at them after they arrive via death from the skies.

I have never been a fan of playing a stealthy gunline. I play Raven Guard not Raptors. Give me back my jump pack ninjas, and let me do sneaky airborne and special ops shenanigans again.

Helias_Tancred · October 13, 2021

I don't want to derail the thread but I have to disagree. I disagree strongly; its not a gray issue, either the chapter is or is not. None of the chapters I mentioned are fully codex compliant, each have their deviations from it, be it their chapter organization, unique units, etc. Its is why for so long they had their own codex with the exception of the Black Templars (who should have). Each of those chapters offered unique units that the codex compliant chapters did not possess; Blood Claw packs, Wolf Guard, Sanguinary Guard, Death Company, Ravenwing, only 3 battle companies, Company Veterans, etc. ... the shared definition of chapters such as Imperial Fists, Salamanders, Raven Guard, and the others were that they were identical in the units they possessed and how their chapter was organized exactly as the codex defined it.

I believe strongly in that system, its defining of the marine chapters as a whole; compliant vs non-compliant, and that didn't just change or go-away in 8th or 9th edition, the Crimson Fists don't have Sanguinary Guard, the Iron Hands don't use Blood Claws, and no one else has access to Land Speeder Vengeances or Dark Shrouds.

I don't believe the codex compliant chapters should get their own chapter-unique units, that has always been the realm of the non-compliant chapters, part of their very definition. And that's actually something I liked about those codex compliant chapters, they followed the codex completely.

In defining the individual codex compliant chapters there is plenty of room for special rules concerning each one, that makes sense with the lore and practices of the chapter. I previously stated Salamanders getting expanded access to flamer weapons, Raven Guard being able to equip a wider range of units with jump packs, and I'm sure there is more room for rules unique for the chapter instead of a unique unit for the codex compliant chapters. They've never been about that. And for the record I always felt it VERY odd in 8th edition that every chapter got access to "Company Veteran" units identical to the Dark Angels unique unit that was just one of the things that set them apart from others.

I know that my opinion may not be popular with everyone, but giving each codex compliant chapter their own special unit does not fit the marine chapter system. if you want to give each one of the codex complaint chapters some individual definition the best way to do that is with special rules and options not special units.

Edited October 13, 2021 by Helias Tancred

Bryan Blaire · October 13, 2021

The Company Vets thing seems like a weird assessment you made to me - that was a squad option because they split the Command Squad up - it was no longer a set 5 guys with Banner Bearer, Company Champion, Company Apothecary, and 2 Veterans - it was split into a Company Ancient as one unit, a Company Champion as one unit, an Apothecary, and a Company Veterans unit with 2 members, but with an upgrade option to take more guys. It’s no different than the Company Command Squad had always been - all Companies had Veterans in their Command Squads.

All the rest of your post is all well and good, but most of that is the development of decades of the game, so for me its a matter of perspective - I remember the time playing the game when the Blood Angels didn’t even have Sanguinary Guard - they were a Codex compliant Chapter in structure, but with Death Company and Sanguinary Priests (which are still Apothecaries, just with cups) - I even still have the Codex (it’s just locked up in storage while we move house) from 1996 (so for two years, the “non-compliant” BA and DA didn’t even have their own Codex). That same Codex shows the Dark Angels as having an extra bike company (non-compliant, yes), short one battle company, and a LOT of Terminator armor for their veterans to the point of not fielding anything else (this isn’t non-compliant, any Chapter which had that much TDA could do this). They didn’t have Company Veterans at all - those didn’t appear for 13 years from 2nd Edition’s release. It’s only been 14 years since they did appear (effectively the exact same amount of time) - so the length of time CoVets have existed is within a year of the same amount of time they didn’t. So the BA and DA weren’t really (and still aren’t) that non-compliant to be drawing any kind of hard lines.

Even the Sanguinary Guard aren’t “non-compliant” - they are artificer armored, jump-pack equipped Veterans - one could argue they are the BA equivalent of Vanguard Veterans with relic armor and fancy weapons (which any chapter could be written to have, since all the Legions went through the Heresy, so not unique in any fashion really) and are easy to fit into the 1st Company of any Codex compliant Chapter. They weren’t even a historical part of the Blood Angels in the game - they were only introduced in 2010 by the 5th Edition Codex. That means that the Blood Angels existed without them for at least 16 years and were still “non-compliant”, longer than they’ve existed with them (only 11 years).

Look at the Black Templars - they were a Codex compliant Chapter once upon a when in the game, and remained so for at least 6 years - they were actually still Codex compliant when they were the 3rd Edition box and big rules cover headliners! They didn’t even get unique rules in book form until 2000 in Codex: Armageddon, and didn’t get their own Codex until 2005.

Every single unit you named, with the exception of Blood Claws (Sanguinary Guard, Land Speeder Vengeances, Dark Shrouds), are all recent additions to the game’s 26+ year history, and none of them preclude non-compliant Chapters from having unique squads or vehicles. Space Wolves have always been the primary example of what true non-compliance with the Codex looks like, and even they are “more compliant” now with the introduction of the Primaris Marines into their structure, just as all Codex compliance Chapters have gained a measure of “non-compliance” because their squads can be broken up into odd numbers and reassigned to different squad types as the mission requires, giving you a lot more variation in a Company structure, similar to how the Great Companies of the Space Wolves don’t have the strict 6-2-2 structure of squads in a Battle Company of old.

So from the historical perspective on the game, there’s absolutely no reason that Codex compliant Chapters can’t have/be “more”. Heck, the Iron Hands have had lore for a while, which has been somewhat pulled back, that they don’t have a Chapter Master, but are led by a council and each of their Companies is independent - they don’t have a veteran 1st company like Codex compliant Chapters do - in that lore, they have basically no Codex compliance at all, as they have no Veteran, Battle, Reserve, or Scout companies.

They don’t have to become “non-compliant” by gaining unique units and a little bit more uniqueness - especially if they might already be “non-compliant” in certain ways based on their lore. Nothing would violate “Codex compliance” about a Medusan Terminator Squad, a band of Firedrakes, a shadow-flitting sniper-ninja squad, some kind of awesome Outrider bike squad, etc. They could simply become an extra squad option for those gene-lines. Heck, you only have to look at the Ultramarines themselves for examples of this - did they all of the sudden become not the epitome of Codex compliant when they gained the Tyrannic War Veterans or Victrix Honour Guard - I assume the answer everyone would give is a hard “No.” Having unique squads doesn’t have to have anything to do with being non-compliant, and the Ultramarines are the proof of that in full.

Holding to the straight-jacket view of fiction as sacred, when that fiction itself has been changed to introduce unique things, in an effort to keep unique things out is silly.

GW can do and, more importantly, has done better.

Schlitzaf · October 13, 2021

Yeah as Blaine said above EVERY chapter has uniqueness in some fashion. While something like Tyrannic are actually stated in lore as deviant (or were at one point) from codex that doesn’t make them not codex complient. The codex is seen as a holy bible to “guidelines”. Complientness is less squad specific and more grand scope of organization. In fact many ways it would make little sense for complient chapters to not Specialized Elite CoolBro squads because chapters don’t wage war the same. And Veteran Squads are where a chapter or gene line tendency make themselves MOST apparent.

DA Deathwing/Ravenwing existence for example highlights how DA is DA. The hunters and impaccable retrievers of secret. Sang/DC the master artisen and monster within. Sanguinary Gaurd being basically “art armored vangaurd with cooler weapons” does a dramatically good job at representing Craftman nature of BA sense their introduction.

Salamanders whose shtick is also master craftsman (alongside theme of fire & dragon). Have a duality being most empathic of marines. Like to put it out there for example Salamander Unit could be Aggressors w/ Bodygaurd role. And Master Crafted Flamers. Salied want to get up close and use flamers & hammers. So you could see up there units aethestically

Blacksmithy. A unit that can march forward and lay waste. And have a rule similar to possessed or jo’kero. A chapter not having a unique ‘vet’ to represent its preference or otherwise would be weirder than havjng it. My 2 cents. Also ultimately lore is mutable

Jacques Corbin · October 13, 2021

Well, how about this for Iron Hands? I remember reading that they have Terminator veterans that are more bionics than anything else. What about a gravis unit where an entire arm is replaced with what had previously been a Dreadnought Heavy Weapon. I mean like a Multimelta, Hurricane Bolter, Heavy Flamer, or even a Twin Lascannon or Twin Lastalon. Have the other arm be a Power Fist with varying degrees of bionics, and the option for a chainfist on the sergeant, but it is styled after the chainfist on an Ironclad Dreadnought. Then the legs, some with one bionic leg and one organic, but give the sergeant legs like a smaller version of the legs on a Contemptor Dreadnought. Half of each helmet is ridiculously bionic. I would give them the usual veteran perks, plus maybe improve their fnp by 1. Another cool feature could be a stratagem where the unit can explode like a vehicle, with the radius and damage proportional to the number of models in the unit.

I mean, it embodies their creed of The Flesh is Weak. Imagine a unit of 3 Gravis Astartes with barely any flesh left, essentially mini dreadnoughts, but with 3 or 4 wounds each. I would slow them down to a 4 inch move, kind of like Cataphracti TDA, and even give it a similar aesthetic, but make it so they can move and still fire at full BS.

I could see this unit also being a bodyguard for an Ironfather. Maybe they could take up no slot if there is a Chapter Master, but be only one unit per detachment.

phandaal · October 13, 2021

That would be really cool do Iron Hands. Maybe they get a better Feel No Pain than other Iron Hands to represent them being more machine than Marine.

Iron Father Ferrum · October 13, 2021

I've already suggest Gravis-armored Helfathers with OGCs in like, three of these threads.

Inquisitor_Lensoven · October 13, 2021

I was just thinking a gravis bolter storm shield unit for the

Would be great!

Jacques Corbin · October 13, 2021

Any similarities to your threads are purely coincidental. I am only following this one thread. I will have to check your posts in the subject out. I want to see how close I was. I am deeply flattered to think along the same lines as you. You have posted some really quality ideas. Thank you.

Bryan Blaire · October 14, 2021

I am going to preface this with “I don’t have my 9th Edition Space Marine Codex in my hands, only my electronic 8th Edition one and the 8th Ed Supplements” - so if things have changed, please provide the correct information:

To continue that idea that the Codex-compliant Chapters actually have non-compliant Company Structures, we can also take a look at the Salamanders - they have a Company Structure that is more non-compliant than the BA or DA - they only have seven of them - that’s way more out of whack than either of the aforementioned non-compliant Chapters.

Yes, they use the typical Codex compliant squad layouts (which are much more flexible in the Era Indomitus), but their companies are larger than the Codex compliant Chapter Companies as well.

So out of the traditional Codex compliant Chapters of the original Legions, we can see that only the White Scars, Raven Guard, and Imperial Fists exist exclusively as “Codex compliant Chapters” - meaning they only use Codex compliant squads and have Codex compliant Company structures - even the Ultramarines can’t say that.

So again, we’ve got room for GW to add some unique squads to the Codex compliant stuff without driving it far away from Codex compliance, given how far from that concept they already have half of them.

Jacques Corbin · October 14, 2021

Yes, but, look where the lore is going. Besides, the Codex Astartes is one thing, but Cawl's designs qre another. Think about it. Guilliman ordered lots and lots of new and improved marines, but it looks like it has been Cawl's discretion with regards to the wargear. Cawl thought Storm Bolters were stupid, or for little sissy girls, so he decided to make a bolt rifle with less punch, but more shots. I mean, we've seen that he thinks the only marine portable heavy weapons should be Autocannons or Plasma Incinerators, and Lascannons are apparently too heavy for a marine, but you have to be in Gravis to tote around a Multimelta. Hell, Cawl even thought the Assault Cannon to be weak, and not only was the Onslaught Gatling Cannon debuted, but a heavy version as well.

Like, where were anything like Aggressors in the Codex? But then, they were deployed, and the vast majority of marines (and players) found them to be terrible effective. I mean, even without shooting twice, they still do work.

Now consider this. All the Primaris units were made, by Cawl, for Guilliman and the Ultramarines. Now what happens when Chapter Masters from First Founding chapters get ahold of Cawl and start ordering custom Primaris Astartes, weapons, and armors? How about when another Primarch (the Lion) returns, and has demands of his own? We've read, Cawl has his own ambitions, and who ever can get him what he wants, he will make sure they are taken care of. Also, in Codex Space Marines, there are Salamanders successors that followed closely by the agents of Cawl. Sounds like field testing to me...

Also, this was started around the time of the Heresy. Chaos was the big enemy. Orks? Considered handled after Ullanor. Necrons were still sleeping, and Tyranids had not entered the galaxy yet. There are a lot more threats in the current setting, and they need units to deal with those threats. See why I said field testing? Like, if Cawl decided that Phobos armored Astartes with Thunder Hammers and Storm Shields that could run as fast as Eldar was a good idea, and possible, then he would start rolling them out.

Helias_Tancred · October 14, 2021

/

Edited October 14, 2021 by Helias Tancred

phandaal · October 14, 2021

Here are the reasons for mono-loadout Primaris Marines: it costs less to make a boxed set without a bunch of extra bits, and it is less confusing for new players when they get their box of Primaris Intercessors for Christmas.

Primaris Marines' introduction to 40k was done so poorly (and received so poorly by people who were worried their hobby was about to get AoS-ified) that GW had to retcon the entire timeline.

Don't twist your head canon into pretzels to try and justify what has been done in the real world.

Jacques Corbin · October 14, 2021

See, I respectfully disagree with that last part. Head canon is what keeps a lot of us motivated. I come here to get away from the real world. I also want to keep politics and pandemic bull-:cuss out of hobbying and games.

Here is more head canon. A big problem for Heretic Astartes? Logistics. Bolter rounds are not easy to manufacture, and which Chapters make their own? Seriously, maybe the Ultramarines, and we all know the Imperial Fists have a practically unlimited supply due to their roles as Defenders of Terra. Now, imagine heretic warbands, who have to raid and steal to get most of their supplies.

And here come the Primaris with their Bolt Rifles. A Bolt Rifle is not only much bigger than a Bolter, but it's ordnance (remember, bolt shells are not bullets, they are rocket propelled grenades) fires further and punches through armor better. Bolt Rifle ordnance CANNOT be fired from Bolters or even Heavy Bolters. This drastically reduces the Heretic's ability to resupply through raiding or looting corpses. Also factor into the repair of power armor, the obstacles to incorporating pieces of Primaris armor into older grades of power armor are astronomical. So, now heretic Astartes either start to target Chapters with all or mostly Firstborn Astartes, or rely more heavily on the so-called Dark Mechanicus for supplies. The solution to that? Continue to phase out Firstborn, and heavily target Dark Mechanicus and wipe them out. As a result of those 2 things being successful, heretic warbands will have to fight each other for increasingly limited resources.

Now, back on topic. How about this for White Scars? Instead of putting each and every character on a bike, make an elite biker with a chariot-style sidecar on his Outrider. One non-gravis character can embark onto the sidecar. The bike has Storm Shield tech in the sidecar, bestowing a 4++, and the biker acts as a bodyguard for any embarked character, with a 5+ FNP for mortal wounds. The character embarked still counts as on the table, gains biker keyword with +1W and +1T, can shoot and fight out of the sidecar, as well as use command phase abilities and affect units with their auras. I say White Scars mostly because they released Korsarro Khan on foot to sell Impulsors, when he is almost always on a bike in the lore. But imagine being able to put a Primaris Techmarine in that sidecar, and now he can keep up with Gladiators, Impulsors, Repulsors, and Storm Speeders. Imagine the boost in durabilty to a Repulsor, Impulsor, or Gladiator Valiant or Reaper, if a Techmarine could keep up with the tank. Your opponent hast to blow it up his first turn, or it gets repaired and you target his anti tank units. So, your Dreadnoughts are not being targeted, and neither are your your other vehicles.

This is another unit that I could see as if you take a Captain or Chapter Master, you can take one without using an elite slot. Think about a basic Primaris Captain, MC Power Sword and the Bellicose Rifle embarked on that sidecar, not to mention how a Bladeguard Captain would be.

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