Primaris Crusader Squads

[T14]

Eliminates with Witchseeker bolts on the SGT feel like a fun pick. They don't get camo cloak bonuses under Upheld though so paint the clocks up in tabard colors and add a chapter symbol on the back.

A proper witchhunter squad!

A less snipery, but still fun recipient for witchseeker bolts would be a heavy intercessor sgt sword brother

 

Edit: Back on topic

 

From oogling the sprue pics on goonhammer there seems to be the following modelling limitations on primaris crusaders:

• Each sprue contains only 2 knightly helmet variants, along with two mkX helmets, meaning that there is limited opportunities to transfer bling to standard primaris heads/helms
• Each sprue contains only a single mkiii style shoulder pauldron that seems to be the default style of the sword brethren box. This means that we can only build a single fully moddelled sword brother per crusader squad kit. (each upgrade kit has an additional two SB pauldrons, fiy)

[BitsHammer]

 

Eliminates with Witchseeker bolts on the SGT feel like a fun pick. They don't get camo cloak bonuses under Upheld though so paint the clocks up in tabard colors and add a chapter symbol on the back.

A proper witchhunter squad!

A less snipery, but still fun recipient for witchseeker bolts would be a heavy intercessor sgt sword brother

 

I've also seen people talk about using it on the Phobos Captain, but we don't have a lot of HQ slots open for him.

[Ferrum_Sanguinis]

Now the eternal question is do I give them all chainswords/pistols, or bolters/shotguns? Chainswords feel like a no-brainer right now with +1A and -1AP, but I feel like I might be missing something with the other options...

[Marshal Loss]

The auto bolt rifles and carbines/shotguns mesh really well with The Emperor's Will (1CP, can advance & shoot pistols/rapid fire/assault weapons without penalty) to create an extremely maneuverable unit that rockets around the board while pumping out decent firepower at 24". So there's definitely potential there, even if I still think CC is almost always going to be the way to go. There are just so many incentives for Templars to be in melee with almost all of our relics traits litanies and stratagems pushing us in that direction, and our Neophytes are far more efficient when equipped for hand to hand.

[BitsHammer]

The auto bolt rifles and carbines/shotguns mesh really well with The Emperor's Will (1CP, can advance & shoot pistols/rapid fire/assault weapons without penalty) to create an extremely maneuverable unit that rockets around the board while pumping out decent firepower at 24". So there's definitely potential there, even if I still think CC is almost always going to be the way to go. There are just so many incentives for Templars to be in melee with almost all of our relics traits litanies and stratagems pushing us in that direction, and our Neophytes are far more efficient when equipped for hand to hand.

I'm starting to wonder if the current build might be shooty Crusader squads who can outfight other shooty Marine units.

[Tokugawa]

Auto bolt rifle cost 1pt on initiates?

[Tokugawa]

 

 

Eliminates with Witchseeker bolts on the SGT feel like a fun pick. They don't get camo cloak bonuses under Upheld though so paint the clocks up in tabard colors and add a chapter symbol on the back.

A proper witchhunter squad!

A less snipery, but still fun recipient for witchseeker bolts would be a heavy intercessor sgt sword brother

I've also seen people talk about using it on the Phobos Captain, but we don't have a lot of HQ slots open for him.

Though BT moving towards "balance" from "melee" a bit,IMO a BT crusade lead by a sniper rifle Lord is unacceptable in flavor. And since apothecary and bodyguard are everywhere, sniper is awkward in 9th. People bring sniper units usually for their other utility(e.g. eliminator move 12 inches per turn)

[BitsHammer]

 

 

 

Eliminates with Witchseeker bolts on the SGT feel like a fun pick. They don't get camo cloak bonuses under Upheld though so paint the clocks up in tabard colors and add a chapter symbol on the back.

A proper witchhunter squad!

A less snipery, but still fun recipient for witchseeker bolts would be a heavy intercessor sgt sword brother

I've also seen people talk about using it on the Phobos Captain, but we don't have a lot of HQ slots open for him.

Though BT moving towards "balance" from "melee" a bit,IMO a BT crusade lead by a sniper rifle Lord is unacceptable in flavor. And since apothecary and bodyguard are everywhere, sniper is awkward in 9th. People bring sniper units usually for their other utility(e.g. eliminator move 12 inches per turn)

 

Could be an interesting story where a small force of witchseekers (what I imagine Eliminators would actually do in the Templars anyways) encounters resistance and meets up with a larger crusade force but either is in command, or shares command as they work together to eliminate the witches.

 

But yeah, that's more of a one off than something that should be common.

[Medjugorje]

Eliminates with Witchseeker bolts on the SGT feel like a fun pick. They don't get camo cloak bonuses under Upheld though so paint the clocks up in tabard colors and add a chapter symbol on the back.

this is what I already done. My camo clocks are red ^^

[Charlo]

 

 

The auto bolt rifles and carbines/shotguns mesh really well with The Emperor's Will (1CP, can advance & shoot pistols/rapid fire/assault weapons without penalty) to create an extremely maneuverable unit that rockets around the board while pumping out decent firepower at 24". So there's definitely potential there, even if I still think CC is almost always going to be the way to go. There are just so many incentives for Templars to be in melee with almost all of our relics traits litanies and stratagems pushing us in that direction, and our Neophytes are far more efficient when equipped for hand to hand.

I'm starting to wonder if the current build might be shooty Crusader squads who can outfight other shooty Marine units.

Totally, I think Autos are deceptively good and you could combine with Shotguns for some potential 2D shots or just give Neophytes Pistols/ Chainswords to act as bodies or effective combat punch.

 

Sprinkle in a couple of fists and it would be hella cool.

[atropos_priest]

Another consideration for not having pure close combat mega blobs is that getting 20 models into combat is unlikely, whereas getting 20 models within 24" of a target to use all your guns is far more realistic. Additionally, since we're not fast anymore, might as well be shooting while we move towards objectives and enemies.

 

Also, since we get very little from being in assault doctrine (no super doctrine), staying in tactical the extra turn means 3 shots per gun with ap -1. Either with minor downside on the run, or without downside, with our (sadly downgraded) Emperor's Will strat. 

Bladeguard Vets (or for our Smol bros Termies, Van Vets) are still our combat units of choice. Crusader squads feel more like warrior squads in Necrons, to me: resilient shooting blobs. Yeah, you can equip them to dish it out in CC, but without speed you're just not gonna get to leverage your investment.

Edited October 14, 2021 by atropos_priest

[Medjugorje]

I think they are a fine counter unit. Close to Characters where they get enourmes buffs and large squad which can used to screen your own deployment zone. And my lists tends to have +1 to wound from one Chaplain and rerolls from one chaplain/High Marshal and Fires of devotion.

that makes 8 powerfist attacks which wounds (with Helbrecht) everything on 2s and of course rorolls of 1s. and rerolls to hit are 6 hits on average. 

And the sword brother and the rest of the squad havent fought yet. 

 

Very sad that the only transport is one of the worst vehicles in game (and it didnt get the treatment from the LRC)

[BitsHammer]

So I had some time to puzzle over Primaris Crusader Squads and primarily shooting with some melee definitely feels like the best way to build them. Not only are they the most flexible Primaris squads we have, but I feel like they're the best TAC troop we have. As much fun as as all one or the other is, I feel like we want a mix because the shooting members of the unit don't hit any softer than other shooting Primaris units at 2 attacks a pop, but they also hit with as many attacks as the Firstborn Crusaders geared up for melee. We can go for extra attacks with chainswords, quality of attacks by loading up with powerfists, load up with assault bolt rifles, or leverage in shotguns for dealing with MEQ units. 

 

Basically I'm saying I think Primaris Crusader squads have the potential to be our strongest troop unit because they can be set up for a range of options, and by taking a mix of options the unit can flex one way or the other as our match up requires by pulling casualties from the models not geared up for combat. 

 

That said, you could definitely go all shooting with Auto Bolt Rifles and Shotguns or Assault Bolters and just leverage the fact that the unit starts with 21 attacks base (31 on the charge or under the Vow) and can be buffed in other ways for melee, but I feel at minimum we probably want to toss at least a powerfist or two into the unit for utility. 

 

Still not too keen on the Pyreblaster though. At 10 points the small range bump and AP bonus are just not enough over a bog standard flamer.

[Tokugawa]

If the pyreblaster is still dmg2 then it worth a try. Dmg1? 10pts??! no, thanks.

 

I 90% believe that the new BT codex is written by the same author of new sisters codex. So many similar designs. Sisters have their storm bolter raised to 5pts but dmg2. I don't know why GW cancelled dmg2 pyre at the last minute.

Edited October 15, 2021 by Tokugawa

[Marshal Reinhard]

If the pyreblaster is still dmg2 then it worth a try. Dmg1? 10pts??! no, thanks.

It's d1. Fists all the way, though i'll probably stick on all my pyreblasters on some older intercessor models

[BitsHammer]

 

If the pyreblaster is still dmg2 then it worth a try. Dmg1? 10pts??! no, thanks.

It's d1. Fists all the way, though i'll probably stick on all my pyreblasters on some older intercessor models

 

I'm thinking of repurposing the Scout Assault Bolter Arms on Reivers, but they'd need a head swap.

Edited October 15, 2021 by Fulkes

[Tokugawa]

 

 

 

 

If the pyreblaster is still dmg2 then it worth a try. Dmg1? 10pts??! no, thanks.

It's d1. Fists all the way, though i'll probably stick on all my pyreblasters on some older intercessor models

I'm thinking of repurposing the Scout Assault Bolter Arms on Reivers, but they'd need a head swap.

Are there some helmet-less heads in reivers and incursors kits box?

[BitsHammer]

 

 

 

If the pyreblaster is still dmg2 then it worth a try. Dmg1? 10pts??! no, thanks.

It's d1. Fists all the way, though i'll probably stick on all my pyreblasters on some older intercessor models

I'm thinking of repurposing the Scout Assault Bolter Arms on Reivers, but they'd need a head swap.

Are there some helmet-less heads in reivers and incursors kits box?

 

Reivers have half skull masks for their helmetless heads, but I figure the upgrade spure heads would solve the problem.

[atropos_priest]

So I had some time to puzzle over Primaris Crusader Squads and primarily shooting with some melee definitely feels like the best way to build them. Not only are they the most flexible Primaris squads we have, but I feel like they're the best TAC troop we have. As much fun as as all one or the other is, I feel like we want a mix because the shooting members of the unit don't hit any softer than other shooting Primaris units at 2 attacks a pop, but they also hit with as many attacks as the Firstborn Crusaders geared up for melee. We can go for extra attacks with chainswords, quality of attacks by loading up with powerfists, load up with assault bolt rifles, or leverage in shotguns for dealing with MEQ units. 

 

Basically I'm saying I think Primaris Crusader squads have the potential to be our strongest troop unit because they can be set up for a range of options, and by taking a mix of options the unit can flex one way or the other as our match up requires by pulling casualties from the models not geared up for combat. 

 

That said, you could definitely go all shooting with Auto Bolt Rifles and Shotguns or Assault Bolters and just leverage the fact that the unit starts with 21 attacks base (31 on the charge or under the Vow) and can be buffed in other ways for melee, but I feel at minimum we probably want to toss at least a powerfist or two into the unit for utility. 

 

Still not too keen on the Pyreblaster though. At 10 points the small range bump and AP bonus are just not enough over a bog standard flamer.

I think 4 fists + Sword of Judgement + Auto bolt rifles is probably the best load out. Needs little support, but gets good value from Litany of Divine Protection, or an apothecary. 4 fists and the sword, surrounded by all those ablative wounds, makes for a solid midfield objective holder. I don't think they're any good at pursuing targets, but they'll take a hit (particularly with 5++ and some Feel No Pain on top) and be able to push back pretty well. I wish the sword brother could take a master crafted powersword, at the very least, or a powerfist (to be relic'd-up to D3).

[Medjugorje]

 

If the pyreblaster is still dmg2 then it worth a try. Dmg1? 10pts??! no, thanks.

It's d1. Fists all the way, though i'll probably stick on all my pyreblasters on some older intercessor models

 

It was shown that originally they used to have 2dmg in earlier versions. I think so too. It sucks - 20 man crusadersquad would have had options for 4 pyreblaster with damage2. I think they were kinda worried about how strong the Drukhari "dark technomancer" performance pre FAQ.

 

They forgotten that we would not have the ability for +1 to wound in addition to what DT had. Thats the only explanation because the Pyreblaster seems like really bad to me.

 

 

2 fists in 10 man squad or 4 in a 20 man squad is phenomenal. thats 6 attacks if you charge or getting charged (at least).  In best cast you can the vow per litany AAC on it, fire of devotion and use the honor vehemet from SM codex - you would have  20 powerfist attacks^^

Edited October 15, 2021 by Medjugorje

[Sigismund's Wrath]

I unironically like the 20m blob on the GW layout combined with Grim. 4x fists and all guns gives you a really punchy unit that has access to a really flexible board role. Only issue is baby relic distribution. 

[Medjugorje]

I think maybe seal of sigismund. Everything else is not that important for this unit.

[Palmu]

On a theoretical level (given that I can't get a damm game going) I adore the Seal on a shootier unit, just for its value at discouraging a particularly frustrating enemy unit from trying to lock the unit down in melee.

[War of the Eagle]

Eliminates with Witchseeker bolts on the SGT feel like a fun pick. They don't get camo cloak bonuses under Upheld though so paint the clocks up in tabard colors and add a chapter symbol on the back.

Now I want some and to switch their helms out with k ight helms and glue purity seals all over their cloaks and call them "Witch slayers" or something

[Jacques Corbin]

Well, the biggest issue with Crusader squads seems to be character support. I mean a marshall seems to be more useful with elites, same could be said for a Castellan. A Chaplain would be good for sure. A 20 man shooty squad would be vicious supported by a Chaplain preaching Catechism of Fire for that sweet +1 to wound closest, but you need a basic Chaplian for that. The biker Chaplain goes great following a transport and screened by Outriders. That is yet another reason Redemptors are so popular for Wisdom of the Ancients.

 

Also, it is a purpose issue. Say you take a 20 man blob. Do you just run it up the board to rip and tear, or is it a steady advance to a midfield objective? I mean, who can hold a midfield objective against an advancing 20 man Crusader squad? For that matter, who can take it from them once they have it? I personally play the objectives, and board cobtrol, so that is just the way I look at things