Any reason not to run my Astartes as Black Templars?

[Orange Knight]

Hello everyone

 

I've been an Astartes player for quite a few years, and have generally enjoyed the army from one edition to the next.

 

With that out of the way, I have some grievances with the faction at the moment that I think should be voiced.

 

I feel that the disparity between the strength of various Astartes sub-factions within the same codex has never been quite this bad. I typically run my Marines as Imperial Fist successors, but have dabbled with Raven Guard, Salamanders and Iron Hands to varying degrees.

I've felt the Fists are lacking in strong or dynamic rules and that they, alongside the Ultramarines, are currently at the bottom of the barrel. I'm sure there are some limited ways to make them function, but the problems are obvious and noticeable to most.

 

In the last year chapters like the Dark Angels rose high above other Astartes, but I couldn't try many of their rules out for myself as a lot of them are based around specific Chapter units I don't own. I'm happy to run my Chapter as a "counts-as" but I don't proxy the actual models.

 

Yesterday I ran my Marines as Black Templars in two friendly games, using as many of the rules as I could find to simply trial the army.

 

To give some context, I found that the best way to traditionally run my Marines was to build a strong defensive backbone to the army, and to have specific units chase various objectives and targets. I run an Apothecary and a Librarian to create an Invil-bubble and to ignore some wounds in order to boost resilience, and combine this with various aura characters to increase damage efficiency.

 

I quickly discovered that I have access to more potent rules, and frankly far superior Auras and Synergies when I use the Black Templars.

The army wide 5++ is honestly such a strong ability that I cannot understate it. It was already potent when it could be applied to units like Aggressors via Psychic Fortress, but not having to rely on casting or a bubble made the army feel a lot more durable. The game has gradually become more deadly over the course of 9th edition, but the Templars are happy to walk around the Battlefield on foot.

 

In combination with this, I was able to use a fast moving Primaris Chaplain on bike to hand out a 5+++ aura.

This was a unit far more competitive and useful than the typical Apothecary I run, especially when taking into account that the Bike Chaplain costs the same as a Chief Apothecary.

I ran a Redemptor and a Gladiator as well, both were significantly more resilient as I faced off against Death Guard in my 1st game, and Astra Militarum in the second.

Both opposing armies were commanded by competent and effective players, and I was able to compare the performance of the Black Templars against those of other chapters as I have faced the lists prior.

 

In short, everything from the relics, stratagems, vows and the chapter-tactic itself combine to form a very powerful foce. I don't see how the Imperial Fists, Ultramarines, Raven Guard or Iron Hands can really compete, and I wasn't even running an optimised BT list.

 

My army was comprised of:

 

-Gravis Captain with Sword of Judgement

-Primaris Chaplan on Bike with the Benediction of Fury

-Castellan with Volkite, Shield and Master-Crafted Sword

 

-10 Intercessors

-10 Assault Intercessors

-10 Heavy Intercessors with Heavy Bolt-Rifles and 2 Heavy Bolters

 

-5 Aggressors with Flame-Storm Gauntlets

-5 Bladeguard Veterans

-Redemptor Dreadnought with Plasma

 

-5 Eradicators

-Gladiator Valiant

 

I think I miscalculated some of the points and had some spare, but they ultimately weren't needed. I didn't require a meticulous strategy in order to perform well in both games and to enjoy the faction.

 

I know that the the only constant in the game of 40k is change, and that other chapters will rise and fall as time goes on, but I can't defend Games Workshop when a faction has such wide disparities within the same codex. I'm hoping that the other 1st founding chapters receive updates to their supplements soon.

[Kruso]

In combination with this, I was able to use a fast moving Primaris Chaplain on bike to hand out a 5+++ aura.

 

 

 

 

Not an aura though.

[Closet Skeleton]

I know that the the only constant in the game of 40k is change, and that other chapters will rise and fall as time goes on, but I can't defend Games Workshop when a faction has such wide disparities within the same codex. I'm hoping that the other 1st founding chapters receive updates to their supplements soon.

 

This is different to 8th edition how?

 

Tyranids and Eldar still have basically no choice between subfactions at all and won't even be getting a change to that until next year at the earilest.

 

5+ invulnerable save in exchange for being able to gain cover benefits is nothing compared to pre-errata Iron Hands.

 

 

In combination with this, I was able to use a fast moving Primaris Chaplain on bike to hand out a 5+++ aura.

 

 

 

 

Not an aura though.

 

Which is why you wait for a codex to be out before complaining about it.

Edited October 11, 2021 by Closet Skeleton

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

I think Orange Knight is taking about a litany of divine protection for 5+++. I don't have the book but in the index it did give core units a fnp, and according to Goonhammer's codex supplement review it didn't change.

 

That said the 8th edition supplements do need an update. For what its worth I think the BT book is really the the first 9th edition supplement (the other chapters were just brought in line).

[Medjugorje]

because you maybe want to play your army as a melee chapter. Then pick BA, SW and WS. They are way better in that.

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

because you maybe want to play your army as a melee chapter. Then pick BA, SW and WS. They are way better in that.

 

In the context of the list Orange Knight provided I think a balanced chapter is the goal.

 

IF have horrible rules at the moment and its tough to argue that Orange Knight wouldn't get a lot more mileage running BT rules. I could see Salamanders being a strong option as well for a force like that. That said the units in the list would really benefit from BT rules.

 

Edit: As far as the other chapters being way better choices for CC I do disagree. I play space wolves +1 to hit is awesome but I'd trade it for templars having army wide re-rolls to charges. I also think the 5++ and mini-transhuman is really good for CC. It may not be the style of CC you want but being durable is powerful.

Edited October 11, 2021 by Jorin Helm-splitter

[Oxydo]

because you maybe want to play your army as a melee chapter. Then pick BA, SW and WS. They are way better in that.

 

Is it too much to ask that you keep the complaining inside the thread you made for that explicit purpose, or at the very least restrict it to your subforum?

[phandaal]

On the topic of Dark Angels, we do have strong units but the main competitive lists rely on Talonmaster/Bodyguard cheese, and that's ripe for a nerfing.

 

We also can't use VanVets, which removes that go-to fast melee punch from our options.

 

Deathwing are tough in melee but they're also slow and vulnerable to mortal wounds.

[Dracos]

On Topic

 

If you enjoy it and the models aren't confusing to your opponent then go have fun. DIY / Counts As has been something GW has encouraged since I started in 2e. If it means selling more models I don't see then changing that now. Don't let the Lore Purist ruin your fun.

 

That Said.

 

It's my opinion that it's best to be good with a Chapter (Successor) you enjoy and know all the in and outs of how it interacts internally and externally than it is to chase the meta-Chapter. Which is a lot easier to say if you aren't playing Imperial Fist. Man they blow chunks right now (except against my Raven Guard lol). Your totally wrong about the Boy Scouts in Blue though. Ultramarines can be top notch with right gameplan / models.

 

I play a lot of Gravis armor and am toying with Deathwatch ideas and always loved Templars so I guess I'll be buying the Codex (not Supplement) myself since no one else will :p

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Call me old fashioned, but I feel you should play your army using the rules of the Chapter in which it's painted. If it's a DIY or unknown Progenitor, pick your rules within the rules...and Templars explicitly don't have an option for successors.

 

Bit again, I understand that's an old fashioned idea.

[phandaal]

Call me old fashioned, but I feel you should play your army using the rules of the Chapter in which it's painted. If it's a DIY or unknown Progenitor, pick your rules within the rules...and Templars explicitly don't have an option for successors.

 

Bit again, I understand that's an old fashioned idea.

I'm on the "if both players are cool with it, have fun" side. Heck, I used Mutant Chronicles Bauhaus models for Meganobz back in the early 00s. Good times.

[TheNewman]

On Topic

 

[snip]

 

It's my opinion that it's best to be good with a Chapter (Successor) you enjoy and know all the in and outs of how it interacts internally and externally than it is to chase the meta-Chapter. Which is a lot easier to say if you aren't playing Imperial Fist. Man they blow chunks right now (except against my Raven Guard lol). Your totally wrong about the Boy Scouts in Blue though. Ultramarines can be top notch with right gameplan / models. [snip]

Tournament results say Ravenguard aren't in a much better place than Imperial Fists, fwiw.

 

You make a good point about sticking to a faction and getting a good grip on what it can do. I play White Scars but I build lists like the OP. Conventional wisdom says I should switch to Dark Angels, Salamanders, or Black Templars since their synergies are easier and/or better, but WS are really good at rapidly repositioning and I find that picking the firefights I want and minimizing return fire with good positioning is better than the defensive buff-stack when I can pull it off. And whenever I play anything else there's always a moment when I really wish I had the WS ability to suddenly close with or disengage from the enemy.

 

What I'm getting at is switching subfactions might work out in the long run but I'd be kneecapping my effectiveness for a while as I got a handle on the new rules, and then something else comes along that looks better.

Edited October 12, 2021 by TheNewman

[Helias_Tancred]

On Topic

 

If you enjoy it and the models aren't confusing to your opponent then go have fun. DIY / Counts As has been something GW has encouraged since I started in 2e. If it means selling more models I don't see then changing that now. Don't let the Lore Purist ruin your fun.

 

That Said.

 

It's my opinion that it's best to be good with a Chapter (Successor) you enjoy and know all the in and outs of how it interacts internally and externally than it is to chase the meta-Chapter. Which is a lot easier to say if you aren't playing Imperial Fist. Man they blow chunks right now (except against my Raven Guard lol). Your totally wrong about the Boy Scouts in Blue though. Ultramarines can be top notch with right gameplan / models.

 

I play a lot of Gravis armor and am toying with Deathwatch ideas and always loved Templars so I guess I'll be buying the Codex (not Supplement) myself since no one else will

 

I'm with this guy ^.

 

Pick a chapter (first founding, second+, or make your own?), paint it, and play it. Play the living hell out of it! Know the army inside and out and get good with it! Very good. It helps tremendously to know your preferred play style before you do this, so you make the right choice and the fit over time is good.

 

The GW 40k faction bus: You're either on it or you are not. With the exception of a few factions that have permanent seats on it, your army will be on it, then as it goes around the block you'll get tossed off of it. Just wait. Keep playing your chosen army because at some point that GW 40k bus will come back around for you. 9th edition has done a better job at making the army power-gulfs smaller. They are still there but it's better than in previous editions.

 

After being in the hobby for 8 years now, I've found my path always leads back to Baal, for better or worse lol. They're my ride or die and I'm always trying to get better with them. 

 

We are all different, but if I was into chasing the army of the month meta, even army of the edition meta, I'd need a hefty trust fund and all the free time that comes with that lifestyle :)

 

But if that's not your style then I'd paint up your army in your own unique colors, and then be able to shift between marine chapter rules when you feel the need. 

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

Better question is, is there a reason to play them as BT?

[CCE1981]

I see no problem running them as a Black Templar “Successor”. I think they should have made the Black Templars Supplement as a Crusader Chapter Supplement, with Black Templars as the parent Chapter.

[Orange Knight]

I think people are forgetting that in 8th edition, Iron Hands ruled the tabletop by simply having a more durable army. They did so in various lists by stacking Invuls and a 5+++ on large infantry units.

 

Black Templars can now run larger units of Marines with a 5++, 5+++ and an additional 5+++ against Mortal Wounds that is rolled separately. This also comes with an added defence to their vehicles - their Tanks and Dreads will now ignore 1/3 of the deadly anti-tank hits that armies can muster. Also their anti-psychic stratagem is very useful.

 

I made this topic because in the games I had recently played, the Death Guard in particular simply out-performed my Primaris when I used the chapter rules for Imperial Fists, Raven Guard, Ultramarines, etc.

When I ran the army as Black Templars, my Primaris were more than a match on the tabletop and it was instantly noticeable. Astartes are good at dealing damage, both in shooting and in combat, now they can take it better in return and are more reliable when it comes to the assault phase.

[Mandragola]

There are quite a lot of different issues at play here. The short answer is: do what you want with your models. If somebody else bought them for you then maybe their opinion counts for something - otherwise not.

 

Call me old fashioned, but I feel you should play your army using the rules of the Chapter in which it's painted. If it's a DIY or unknown Progenitor, pick your rules within the rules...and Templars explicitly don't have an option for successors.

Bit again, I understand that's an old fashioned idea.

I don't think this is old fashioned. There has never been a rule that you had to do this. Some events might have enforced a rule like it but not GW, who have always said you can do what you want with your models.

 

That said, there's a difference between playing an army that's painted as a specific chapter as a different one, and playing a homebrew chapter of your own design. There are people who'll complain about you using models painted yellow with fists on their shoulders as BTs. In the past I had an army with a distinct scheme that I used as White Scars, Space wolves and others. Some people complained about that too, but at the time I was quite heavily into the tournament scene and I didn't feel like buying a new army every few months to keep up with the meta.

 

The fact is, GW are terrible at balancing 40k. The tournament stats make this very plain and always have. Competing tends to mean switching army regularly. The very "best" strategy is sometimes to exploit a "mistake" (from a balance perspective) like the Iron Hands, Dark Eldar and Admech books all contained on release, in the short window of time before it's fixed. Extreme examples of this include things like a guy I know who bought 3 Tau tigersharks when a Tau codex came out and radically buffed their heavy burst cannons or Mani turning up to an event with 100-120 Skitarii while Lucius spam was utterly broken. This kind of thing isn't an option for those of us who can't spend all of our time and money on the hobby.

 

So I think it's entirely unreasonable for players to be forced to keep using bad rules if better ones come along. And it's absurd to suggest that we shelve all our old models and reward GW for this by buying a new army, featuring lots of the same stuff.

 

Personally I made a new mostly-Primaris Crimson Fist army at the start of 8th. It wasn't great initially, but not terrible. Then when the supplement first came out it was absurdly OP, meaning you'd see stuff like a 5 man intercessor squad shooting 9 wounds off a flyer with their stalker bolters. Then it caught GW's famous exponential nerf bat, where they slashed the effectiveness of the super doctrine by limiting which weapons could use it, said you could only do it on turn 1 and introduced obscuring terrain so we can't actually see anything on T1.

 

Honestly I was happiest at the start of 8th before the supplements came out, or with the Crimson Fist WD index rules. My guys weren't all that amazing but neither were they all that bad. Now they're objectively worse than other chapters, and especially the more recent ones.

 

I've got quite a lot of unpainted models, including quite a few vehicles that would be awful for my Crimson Fists but potentially useful as BTs or IH. I'd also be interested to try out the Raven Guard supplement to have stuff popping up from ambush all over the place. I don't particularly want to paint a black army though, and to be honest White Scars, Blood Angels and Dark Angels all have some appeal too. One option would be for me to again make a homebrew chapter that I could use as any chapter I wanted. A dark red could look quite good, though I'd also be up for experimenting with camo - maybe just on vehicles.

 

Anyway the point is, I'd feel a bit odd using my Crimson Fists as BTs, but I'd have no issue at all making an army that I could use as anything I felt like from one day to the next. I'm not sure that really makes complete sense, but there you are.

[Orange Knight]

We should keep in mind that all of these factions share a core codex. They are all sub-factions within one book, so it makes the vast gulf in performance between them even harder to swallow.

 

We are more understanding towards disparities between various main factions in 40k, such as Dark Eldar Vs Nids, depending on edition and/or time since their codex release, but can we be as forgiving when the yellow or blue painted army in one codex is vastly inferior to the black painted army in that same codex? The supplement books were supposed to eliminate this issue - a shared main codex updates the core units simultaneously and supplements add flavour. Games workshop should NOT be staggering the supplements like this because the internal faction balance in the book is now the worst it has ever been.

[Marshal Reinhard]

Are we... are we the new Iron hands?

[Sword Brother Adelard]

Are we... are we the new Iron hands?

Spare a moment for the meta chasers who sold their black painted marine armies after the IH nerf, and now need them back.

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

I think people are forgetting that in 8th edition, Iron Hands ruled the tabletop by simply having a more durable army. They did so in various lists by stacking Invuls and a 5+++ on large infantry units.

 

Black Templars can now run larger units of Marines with a 5++, 5+++ and an additional 5+++ against Mortal Wounds that is rolled separately. This also comes with an added defence to their vehicles - their Tanks and Dreads will now ignore 1/3 of the deadly anti-tank hits that armies can muster. Also their anti-psychic stratagem is very useful.

 

I made this topic because in the games I had recently played, the Death Guard in particular simply out-performed my Primaris when I used the chapter rules for Imperial Fists, Raven Guard, Ultramarines, etc.

When I ran the army as Black Templars, my Primaris were more than a match on the tabletop and it was instantly noticeable. Astartes are good at dealing damage, both in shooting and in combat, now they can take it better in return and are more reliable when it comes to the assault phase.

 

I think your underselling IH offense. Combat doctrines used to work differently, so you could abuse the devastator doctrine a lot more.

 

That said the first founding supplements do need an update. There really isn't a way around that, and I don't really blame someone for using a different set rules. If your army is painted like a first founding than its tougher for me to support but they're your models and if you aren't having fun you shouldn't be forced to be miserable. 

 

Are we... are we the new Iron hands?

 

Nah because Iron Hands in 8th were the best army, and needed to be nerfed immediately.... which left them the best army in the game at the time. Templars may be the strongest chapter (Its pretty early to make a statement like that), but they aren't admech or DE.

[Orange Knight]

We don't actually know how strong the Black Templars are, just yet. It's worth pointing out that they have very strong core rules, but also one of the best characters in Helbrecht, especially thanks to this aura of +1 strength.

 

I'm not actually upset with one chapter having better rules than another. For me, it's the sheer gulf that has developed between them. If they were all good, and a few of them were great I don't think people will have much of a problem. It becomes an issue when a few are great, and the rest are poor.

 

I'm also not one to call for nerfs, or for rules to be toned down. I would much rather see the Imperial Fists, Raven Guard and Ultramarines lifted than the Black Templars and White Scars to be torn down.

Edited October 13, 2021 by Orange Knight

[Mandragola]

We should keep in mind that all of these factions share a core codex. They are all sub-factions within one book, so it makes the vast gulf in performance between them even harder to swallow.

 

We are more understanding towards disparities between various main factions in 40k, such as Dark Eldar Vs Nids, depending on edition and/or time since their codex release, but can we be as forgiving when the yellow or blue painted army in one codex is vastly inferior to the black painted army in that same codex? The supplement books were supposed to eliminate this issue - a shared main codex updates the core units simultaneously and supplements add flavour. Games workshop should NOT be staggering the supplements like this because the internal faction balance in the book is now the worst it has ever been.

 

In a way though, the first part of this isn't really true. Not all the supplements do share the same core if they build armies that contain entirely different units. Notably, a BT army is likely to include troops and special characters that aren't available to other people, while making use of wargear options for other units that nobody else can have.

 

Meanwhile the changes that some units get from their supplement are sometimes so major that it's hard to still think of it as the same unit. For example an Impulsor with a free 5++, a multimelta and twin ironhail is nowhere near equal to one that paid for a 5++ and is just armed with two stormbolters and maybe an ironhail. The BT one is a reasonably capable combat vehicle and hardly costs any more points.

 

The effect is also more noticeable for marines because they've got so many datasheets, meaning it's easily possible for two marine armies to share no units in common.

 

We arguably have two tiers of codex supplement: those that introduce loads of new units (beyond perhaps a special character or two) and those that don't. Confusingly though, that doesn't necessarily mean the books with more content perform better. GW does just as bad a job balancing those units as they do everything else, and there are already so many other units available.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

@Mandragola, in fact GW has said you had to do that. The official rules for Warhammer Workd state that if a unit is painted in a subfaction that has rules, you *must* use those rules -- no counts-as.

[Mandragola]

@Mandragola, in fact GW has said you had to do that. The official rules for Warhammer Workd state that if a unit is painted in a subfaction that has rules, you *must* use those rules -- no counts-as.

Event packs for some of their events have said this, yes. But the WHW events team =/= all of GW having a policy on this. They have slightly stricter rules in general due to using tournament armies for promo shots and stuff.

 

It isn't part of the rules of the game though. You get your 10 points for having a painted army regardless of what colour your army is painted.