Any reason not to run my Astartes as Black Templars?

[N1SB]

Thanks for everyone's sharing, good stuff.

 

Yesterday I ran my Marines as Black Templars in two friendly games, using as many of the rules as I could find to simply trial the army.

To give some context, I found that the best way to traditionally run my Marines was to build a strong defensive backbone to the army, and to have specific units chase various objectives and targets.

I quickly discovered that I have access to more potent rules, and frankly far superior Auras and Synergies when I use the Black Templars.
The army wide 5++ is honestly such a strong ability that I cannot understate it. 

 

I really appreciated your trials, and your brief.  For me it was just the right amount of your personal preferences and supporting evidence, I liked how you attached your army list as like an appendix of what you used, which incidentally showed you weren't even optimised for the usually melee-oriented Black Templars.  Because having read that, I can gauge where you stand with where I stand, make your sharing useful to what I do.  Very useful brief.

 

I agree with your approach, because Marines inherently have a strong backbone, it's like Their Thing, the reason why people play Marines.  Toughness 4, Power Armour.  Now Black Templars with 5++, it's like a bit of a force multiplier to their survivability, especially have you noticed anti-MEQ weapons are everywhere now?  The other thing was that part of the Chapter Tactic that gives the save against Mortal Wounds, that's not new...but have you noticed they're handing Mortal Wounds everywhere like it's going out of fashion?

 

It's like the 40k meta has moved to where the Black Templars happen to be good at, now that you brought the issue up.

 

There's this great Daoism parable about how some guy trained to slay dragons all his life, then when he mastered all the skills, he realised dragons were extinct.  Black Templars are kinda like that guy except suddenly dragons showed up, everyone's like "where's that dude who trained to slay dragons," 'cos suddenly he's very relevant.

 

 

+++ Remember That Time When Everyone Became Iron Hands? +++

 

 

I'm not implying Black Templars are the new late 8th ed Iron Hands, when everyone became Iron Hands.  I played Iron Heads, but in 30k as the Shattered Xth, was the longtime Iron Hands guy allied with the Mechanicum, then one day late 7th ed I showed up at my FLGS and everyone was Iron Hands because new Codex.

 

One dude had a pretty good-looking Primaris Ultramarines army, everyone had the big U, he had those shield guys with the eagles on their faces, and HE was running them as Iron Hands.  I'm like, "You actually painted your army up nice, you put the big U on everyone's shoulder, you're running them AS Ultramarines, right?"

 

He's like, "Naw...that's not a U, that's the symbol of my Iron Hands Successors, the IRON HORSESHOES."  Like the iconic U is an upside down horseshoe like outside a smithy forge or something.  I was in awe.  No mere mortal could argue against such unflappable madness.

 

But that's why I understand and appreciate where Iron Father Ferrum is coming from.  Man, the Iron Horseshoes.  That said...

 

 

+++ Yellow Templars +++

 

 

You know how the recent lore has been focused on the Indomitus Crusade with the Dawn of Fire novel series, Torchbearer Fleet rules for Crusade, etc.  The returned Primarch was taking like a schoolbus-load of Primaris across the galaxy and he'd drop a bunch off at the Chapters that would be their homes, matching their genesires.  Until that point, those Primaris would actually wear the Legion colours of their Primarchs.  You might remembered they're called Greyshields or Unnumbered Sons.

 

The Primaris going to Black Templar Crusades, being sons of Dorn all, would be wearing the traditional yellow.  Black Templar Crusades, being each kinda independent, might have different approaches on how they'd accept these new Primaris.  They might not let them wear The Black until they've proven their ZEAL.

 

So as counter-intuitive as it is, it's actually a really good Forge-A-Narrative lore reason to run Primaris painted as Imperial Fists as Black Templars.  Like a particularly stubborn Firstborn Chaplain had trained them up, but won't let them wear The Black until they've earned it.  It's like the opposite of Iron Horseshoes.

[phandaal]

We don't actually know how strong the Black Templars are, just yet. It's worth pointing out that they have very strong core rules, but also one of the best characters in Helbrecht, especially thanks to this aura of +1 strength.

 

I'm not actually upset with one chapter having better rules than another. For me, it's the sheer gulf that has developed between them. If they were all good, and a few of them were great I don't think people will have much of a problem. It becomes an issue when a few are great, and the rest are poor.

 

I'm also not one to call for nerfs, or for rules to be toned down. I would much rather see the Imperial Fists, Raven Guard and Ultramarines lifted than the Black Templars and White Scars to be torn down.

 

One big problem is rules feel like they're designed to be awesome for the person playing with no thought to the fact that there is another person across the table who has to bear the brunt of those "awesome' rules.

 

Some rules just do not feel like they were passed through a basic check to ask "how does this feel to play against?" That, or whoever is supposed to be acting as a brake on this stuff is afraid to tell his rules team no.

[Dracos]

How about we apply that thought to the Dark Angel rules before we overly worry about a Supplement that hasn't been tested in the wild yet?

[BitsHammer]

My short answer is: do what makes you happy. If it chasing comp makes you happy, do that. If mastering a single army that fits your playstyle is more your taste then do that. 

 

The long answer is that the changes to the Black Templars are still untested and people are still working out the best way to play them. There are some obvious looking combos that seem strong, but it's going to take a number of games to refine the army's playstyle as best as possible.

[phandaal]

How about we apply that thought to the Dark Angel rules before we overly worry about a Supplement that hasn't been tested in the wild yet?

 

No thanks, gonna keep my statement as-is. If you want to complain about Dark Angels go right ahead though.

 

You could apply it to many rulesets. It is not even a new thing - GW has been doing this for years, and sometimes it has even taken a complete edition reset to fix what was broken.

[Dracos]

I don't remember complaining about DA? Just that if we are going to bemoan the opponents across the tables experience, we should start with a Chapter that's been tested for at least a few months.

[phandaal]

I don't remember complaining about DA? Just that if we are going to bemoan the opponents across the tables experience, we should start with a Chapter that's been tested for at least a few months.

 

Going to pass on that offer and stick with my original statement.

 

Feel free to begin your own bemoanination regarding Dark Angels if that is what you would like to do. Note - neither this statement nor the one above is meant to imply that you have already begun bemoaninating.

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

 

We don't actually know how strong the Black Templars are, just yet. It's worth pointing out that they have very strong core rules, but also one of the best characters in Helbrecht, especially thanks to this aura of +1 strength.

 

I'm not actually upset with one chapter having better rules than another. For me, it's the sheer gulf that has developed between them. If they were all good, and a few of them were great I don't think people will have much of a problem. It becomes an issue when a few are great, and the rest are poor.

 

I'm also not one to call for nerfs, or for rules to be toned down. I would much rather see the Imperial Fists, Raven Guard and Ultramarines lifted than the Black Templars and White Scars to be torn down.

 

One big problem is rules feel like they're designed to be awesome for the person playing with no thought to the fact that there is another person across the table who has to bear the brunt of those "awesome' rules.

 

Some rules just do not feel like they were passed through a basic check to ask "how does this feel to play against?" That, or whoever is supposed to be acting as a brake on this stuff is afraid to tell his rules team no.

 

 

Yeah I have to agree with this. I feel like people underestimate just how good of job the old FOC did at toning down the awesome builds. Ever since 6th its felt like they want to empower the player to take whatever they want. Which is great for the player but I don't think "how does this feel to play against" is being asked. I'll admit that there were armies that were just as OP as there now but I feel like the armies that won didn't have as many rock, paper, scissors style matchups as they do now.

 

It's a lot of why I don't judge people for using different rules. I don't like it if an army is painted as a first founding and using different rules but I do feel like some armies just can't compete right now (which with the pace of their updates isn't really excusable).

[phandaal]

 

 

We don't actually know how strong the Black Templars are, just yet. It's worth pointing out that they have very strong core rules, but also one of the best characters in Helbrecht, especially thanks to this aura of +1 strength.

 

I'm not actually upset with one chapter having better rules than another. For me, it's the sheer gulf that has developed between them. If they were all good, and a few of them were great I don't think people will have much of a problem. It becomes an issue when a few are great, and the rest are poor.

 

I'm also not one to call for nerfs, or for rules to be toned down. I would much rather see the Imperial Fists, Raven Guard and Ultramarines lifted than the Black Templars and White Scars to be torn down.

 

One big problem is rules feel like they're designed to be awesome for the person playing with no thought to the fact that there is another person across the table who has to bear the brunt of those "awesome' rules.

 

Some rules just do not feel like they were passed through a basic check to ask "how does this feel to play against?" That, or whoever is supposed to be acting as a brake on this stuff is afraid to tell his rules team no.

 

 

Yeah I have to agree with this. I feel like people underestimate just how good of job the old FOC did at toning down the awesome builds. Ever since 6th its felt like they want to empower the player to take whatever they want. Which is great for the player but I don't think "how does this feel to play against" is being asked. I'll admit that there were armies that were just as OP as there now but I feel like the armies that won didn't have as many rock, paper, scissors style matchups as they do now.

 

It's a lot of why I don't judge people for using different rules. I don't like it if an army is painted as a first founding and using different rules but I do feel like some armies just can't compete right now (which with the pace of their updates isn't really excusable).

 

 

Yeah, unless it is explicitly a WAAC competitive game the opponent should not be left wondering why they bothered showing up in the first place. Both players are people who took the time to build, paint, and transport an army and set aside their afternoon or evening for a game. Both should be having fun.

 

That is partly why I will deliberately tone down my list these days unless it is with someone known to bring meta lists to a casual game. Those games happen less and less as you learn to avoid those people in your area though.

 

Also a big factor in playing fewer Matched Play games and more Open War games these days.

[Kastor Krieg]

@Mandragola, in fact GW has said you had to do that. The official rules for Warhammer Workd state that if a unit is painted in a subfaction that has rules, you *must* use those rules -- no counts-as.

Yeah, naw. You don't have to do anything like that. This is a rule in event packs for only select events at Warhammer World. It's nothing like a global rule for 40k or even anywhere remotely close to being that.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

I never said it was. Don't strawman, it's unbecoming.

[Medjugorje]

 

@Mandragola, in fact GW has said you had to do that. The official rules for Warhammer Workd state that if a unit is painted in a subfaction that has rules, you *must* use those rules -- no counts-as.

Yeah, naw. You don't have to do anything like that. This is a rule in event packs for only select events at Warhammer World. It's nothing like a global rule for 40k or even anywhere remotely close to being that.

 

In our region there is a new player which comes from Spain. He said that in Spain there is common rule that each chapter must be painted as it is. 

[phandaal]

 

 

@Mandragola, in fact GW has said you had to do that. The official rules for Warhammer Workd state that if a unit is painted in a subfaction that has rules, you *must* use those rules -- no counts-as.

Yeah, naw. You don't have to do anything like that. This is a rule in event packs for only select events at Warhammer World. It's nothing like a global rule for 40k or even anywhere remotely close to being that.

 

In our region there is a new player which comes from Spain. He said that in Spain there is common rule that each chapter must be painted as it is. 

 

 

Interesting. In my area if someone wanted to play their Ultramarines as Black Templars they might get some funny looks, but nobody would tell them No.

[Mandragola]

I think most people would find it pretty impractical to play ultramarines as BTs, and that it would be hardest for WAAC players. There’s likely to be a relatively limited amount of crossover between the two armies as they favour such a different style of play. That ultramarine army won’t have Helbrecht or any Crusader squads, obviously, so new minis will be needed.

 

I guess you could end up sharing some stuff. Maybe a squad of infiltrators and the three redemptors that are hard to argue against in any army. Not a lot more than that though.

 

I’m considering making a home brew army to play as any chapter I want and I’m realising that there aren’t many units I’d use in the two chapters I’m considering. There are enough that it’s probably still worthwhile as a project but it’s not like I’ll be using the same toys from week to week.

[Orange Knight]

I think most people would find it pretty impractical to play ultramarines as BTs, and that it would be hardest for WAAC players. There’s likely to be a relatively limited amount of crossover between the two armies as they favour such a different style of play. That ultramarine army won’t have Helbrecht or any Crusader squads, obviously, so new minis will be needed.

 

I guess you could end up sharing some stuff. Maybe a squad of infiltrators and the three redemptors that are hard to argue against in any army. Not a lot more than that though.

 

I’m considering making a home brew army to play as any chapter I want and I’m realising that there aren’t many units I’d use in the two chapters I’m considering. There are enough that it’s probably still worthwhile as a project but it’s not like I’ll be using the same toys from week to week.

Oh yes, if I was building a finely tuned, tournament army then I would have to do far more planning around which chapter I'm running and what units I have access to.

 

I simply wanted to illustrate, via this topic, that my generalist Primaris army is simply put - instantly better - when I use the BT rules. I can drop the Librarian from my list and keep the Invul, and not have it limited to a bubble. I can also drop the Apothecary as he is redundant, and replace him with a far superior Chaplain that confers a 5+++ to units around him.

 

By dropping those characters I was able to include 5 Bladeguard Veterans and various other upgrades. The BT army, compared to my Fists, is more durable, more numerous, more deadly, and quicker to get around.

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

 

I think most people would find it pretty impractical to play ultramarines as BTs, and that it would be hardest for WAAC players. There’s likely to be a relatively limited amount of crossover between the two armies as they favour such a different style of play. That ultramarine army won’t have Helbrecht or any Crusader squads, obviously, so new minis will be needed.

 

I guess you could end up sharing some stuff. Maybe a squad of infiltrators and the three redemptors that are hard to argue against in any army. Not a lot more than that though.

 

I’m considering making a home brew army to play as any chapter I want and I’m realising that there aren’t many units I’d use in the two chapters I’m considering. There are enough that it’s probably still worthwhile as a project but it’s not like I’ll be using the same toys from week to week.

Oh yes, if I was building a finely tuned, tournament army then I would have to do far more planning around which chapter I'm running and what units I have access to.

 

I simply wanted to illustrate, via this topic, that my generalist Primaris army is simply put - instantly better - when I use the BT rules. I can drop the Librarian from my list and keep the Invul, and not have it limited to a bubble. I can also drop the Apothecary as he is redundant, and replace him with a far superior Chaplain that confers a 5+++ to units around him.

 

By dropping those characters I was able to include 5 Bladeguard Veterans and various other upgrades. The BT army, compared to my Fists, is more durable, more numerous, more deadly, and quicker to get around.

 

 

For what its worth, I do think that Black Templars in a lot of ways is the first 9th edition marine supplement. The 9th codex felt like an attempt to bring the power level of marines down a bit, and bring the separate armies back into the fold.  

 

The Vow system feels like a great replacement for super doctrines. I don't think other marines will have the flexibility of Templars but I expect them to have special rules from start to finish rather than at certain steps within the combat doctrines. That will really help armies have a bit more of an identity, cause I hate to say it but I don't feel like IF have one.

[tychobi]

They are your toys. Use the rules that are most fun for you and your opponent.

[Kastor Krieg]

In our region there is a new player which comes from Spain. He said that in Spain there is common rule that each chapter must be painted as it is.

So what you're telling me is that some players somewhere in Spain agreed to a houserule. Cool.

[phandaal]

 

In our region there is a new player which comes from Spain. He said that in Spain there is common rule that each chapter must be painted as it is.

So what you're telling me is that some players somewhere in Spain agreed to a houserule. Cool.

 

 

So what you're telling ME is - when you travel to Spain where the rain falls mainly on the plain, they maintain that your campaign must be play'n with models that are germane.

[Sword Brother Adelard]

 

 

 

In our region there is a new player which comes from Spain. He said that in Spain there is common rule that each chapter must be painted as it is.

So what you're telling me is that some players somewhere in Spain agreed to a houserule. Cool.

So what you're telling ME is - when you travel to Spain where the rain falls mainly on the plain, they maintain that your campaign must be play'n with models that are germane.

Yes, in the main.

[TheNewman]

There's a trophy for winning the internet today, but I'm afraid we must split it in twain.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

 

 

 

In our region there is a new player which comes from Spain. He said that in Spain there is common rule that each chapter must be painted as it is.

So what you're telling me is that some players somewhere in Spain agreed to a houserule. Cool.

So what you're telling ME is - when you travel to Spain where the rain falls mainly on the plain, they maintain that your campaign must be play'n with models that are germane.

Talk about a deep cut. Well done.

[phandaal]

 

 

 

In our region there is a new player which comes from Spain. He said that in Spain there is common rule that each chapter must be painted as it is.

So what you're telling me is that some players somewhere in Spain agreed to a houserule. Cool.

So what you're telling ME is - when you travel to Spain where the rain falls mainly on the plain, they maintain that your campaign must be play'n with models that are germane.

Talk about a deep cut. Well done.

 

 

Thank you, thank you.

[superwill]

 

 

 

@Mandragola, in fact GW has said you had to do that. The official rules for Warhammer Workd state that if a unit is painted in a subfaction that has rules, you *must* use those rules -- no counts-as.

Yeah, naw. You don't have to do anything like that. This is a rule in event packs for only select events at Warhammer World. It's nothing like a global rule for 40k or even anywhere remotely close to being that.

In our region there is a new player which comes from Spain. He said that in Spain there is common rule that each chapter must be painted as it is.

Nice, keeps it thematic. And presumably every Tyranid hive world / Imperial Guard regiment / Tau sept / Custodes shield host etc also has to be painted correctly according to what has been chosen?

[Iron Father Ferrum]

I presume you're fishing for hypocrisy, but I in all seriousness do hope that indeed all factions are played as the faction they're painted as.