Any reason not to run my Astartes as Black Templars?

[superwill]

Honestly, I would be all for it so long as it’s consistent. I’ve never seen anyone raise an eyebrow when Vior’la Tau are run as Dal’yth, Iyanden Eldar are run as Alaitoc, or Custodes players run a gold army as Solar Watch instead of the proper white. People just generally seem to have a double standard when it comes to marines. Back when marines were the only army to have special rules for different chapters that made sense, but now basically every army gets that. Again, I think it would be awesome if people all stuck to the paint scheme of their armies, but expecting marines to do it while everyone else doesn’t, doesn’t make much sense to me.

 

Obviously the counterpoint is that even though it would be cooler to run them as they appear, unfortunately sub-factions are often very unbalanced which means that some are much more competitively viable, and those who prefer competitive play shouldn’t be forced to choose between repainting their army or having a handicap because their boys are the wrong colour.

 

For that reason I’d be personally cool with either ruling, just so long as it’s consistently applied across all armies. If I got penalised at a tournament for running Crimson Fists painted as Salamanders, I’d be hoping that every other player there was running the correct colour scheme for their Drukhari coven, Mechanicus forgeworld etc.

Edited November 1, 2021 by superwill

[Schlitzaf]

Its not a double standard when tou realize why. Most players don’t know non-marine (and lesser extent CW, And Gaurdsman). Its about expectations. I see bright blue and a horseshoe. I am expecting Ultra Rules. Not having colours/army matched what the expected rules are. Causes dissonance and annoyance by players. Espacially those of us who suffer from a mental disability. Having those Ultras be actually IH actually is alot more trouble/difficulty then you’d think

[superwill]

Its not a double standard when tou realize why. Most players don’t know non-marine (and lesser extent CW, And Gaurdsman). Its about expectations. I see bright blue and a horseshoe. I am expecting Ultra Rules. Not having colours/army matched what the expected rules are. Causes dissonance and annoyance by players. Espacially those of us who suffer from a mental disability. Having those Ultras be actually IH actually is alot more trouble/difficulty then you’d think

No I get why people pick on marines for it, because they know the different sub-factions but they don’t know the other factions different sub-factions. But how does that make it not a double standard?

 

“Ah sorry, you’re going to have to run your blue marines as the blue chapter because otherwise I’ll feel uncomfortable. I know that I’m running white eldar as purple eldar, but most people don’t know the difference so I’m allowed to but you’re not.”

“Oh okay yeah I see how that’s not a double standard then.”

 

I get that for some people it could be very difficult to not confuse UM with IH or something, and so enforcing a rule of “if they’re painted UM then play them as UM” is fine. But if it’s cool for the marine player to have to do it, why not just keep it fair and ask others to do the same?

Edited November 2, 2021 by superwill

[MegaVolt87]

DIY paint scheme for SM, problem solved. No one is offended then because you aren't disrespecting established chapters or confusing anyone. Sure some people will then be upset you change your chapter as often as your shirts, but my response to this was always "so are you going to buy me X points worth of chapter Y so I can do them not as DIY? No? Then stop complaining." I'm more bothered by established sub factions proxying as the new hotness than a DIY person doing the same with their own creation. 

[Schlitzaf]

DIY paint scheme for SM, problem solved. No one is offended then because you aren't disrespecting established chapters or confusing anyone. Sure some people will then be upset you change your chapter as often as your shirts, but my response to this was always "so are you going to buy me X points worth of chapter Y so I can do them not as DIY? No? Then stop complaining." I'm more bothered by established sub factions proxying as the new hotness than a DIY person doing the same with their own creation.

I just won’t play you. Me getting a headache is not worth remember LoganMarnuesDante is Helbrecht today.

[Orange Knight]

When I run my Astartes as a different Chapter, I don't proxy any models.

I do set myself the limitation of not using named characters when I do so, because that would involve a "counts-as" model.

[jaxom]

 

DIY paint scheme for SM, problem solved. No one is offended then because you aren't disrespecting established chapters or confusing anyone. Sure some people will then be upset you change your chapter as often as your shirts, but my response to this was always "so are you going to buy me X points worth of chapter Y so I can do them not as DIY? No? Then stop complaining." I'm more bothered by established sub factions proxying as the new hotness than a DIY person doing the same with their own creation.

I just won’t play you. Me getting a headache is not worth remember LoganMarnuesDante is Helbrecht today.

 

 

A while back (last year, two years ago?) there was a thread in Amicus about Successor Chapter, custome Craftworld, etc, rules compared to counts-as. I mostly sat on the sidelines and watched the fireworks, but your comment struck close to my opinion on the matter. Special characters and sub-faction relics are rewards that people get for dedicating to a specific army aesthetic. The CP to unlock chapter-relics for Successor chapters is effectively a soft-tax on the ability to change up one's playstyle and rules from game to game (personally, I would have waived the CP if one took Inheritors of the Primarch). But I feel strongly that locking special characters to armies that are clearly their faction is appropriate (I'm definitely influenced by times past when special characters were more narrative in nature, and not usually just better, and those that were required opponent permission to use).

[MegaVolt87]

 

DIY paint scheme for SM, problem solved. No one is offended then because you aren't disrespecting established chapters or confusing anyone. Sure some people will then be upset you change your chapter as often as your shirts, but my response to this was always "so are you going to buy me X points worth of chapter Y so I can do them not as DIY? No? Then stop complaining." I'm more bothered by established sub factions proxying as the new hotness than a DIY person doing the same with their own creation.

I just won’t play you. Me getting a headache is not worth remember LoganMarnuesDante is Helbrecht today.

 

 

I am the guy who hands my paper excel list with individual points breakdowns/calc, note on pts source (CA X etc) before we discuss what every piece of terrain is on the board via terrain rules, LOS etc. If you are still confused after that (majority aren't) its not illegal to ask me further questions man. Bar named HQ's, everything else I run is WYSIWYG. 

[Schlitzaf]

I am a guy has a bad cause of adhd/dislyexia. And often have trouble focusing in games after 5pm/or where I am consistently engaged. When I sit down at high noon or 1 for a game. As I take my second dosage of medicine to focus its yet kicked in. When I look at your having to remember “that he is Fists despite being Blue meaning he has a +1 save strategem + attack strategem so have to twke my movements into account. Or those ABR Cessors can dbl shoot and dbl explode”. Or that your whole army has FNP so I need consistently remember.

 

When I recgonizs thinfs by colour then bits, you can imagine what this means? Is it particularlt hard. Is an experience I will enjoy? Espacially while this is a stereotype I pretty consistently have bad gaming experience can people who chapter shop.

 

Getting rules wrong, moaning how “actual army is bad”, and more. Which is not related to this thread. Print me out a spreadsheet. I won’t bemoan someone for chapter shopping. I just have no desire to play vs someone. Its just not a fun experience for me.

[General Strike]

But do you only have this issue with things you recognize? That does seem like a you problem, and this is a my freedom ends at your freedom thing. If you don't want to play me because my Blood Angels are blue then I'm not going to change my entire army for you. This is a question with no answer because some people will always have a problem with it, and some won't. If you run into issues with the people you play with the most thats all that matters versus what a bunch of people on a forum say.

[Schlitzaf]

I think you missed the point

[General Strike]

I didn't see a point, but it is hard to read the post. All I saw was you explaining your personal issue with it, and I responded that you can't expect someone to change their hobby based on your personal issue.

[Schlitzaf]

I am not asking anyone too. All I am saying unfair to presume its simply time to call fun police, when someone asks scheme = army.

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

 

I am the guy who hands my paper excel list with individual points breakdowns/calc, note on pts source (CA X etc) before we discuss what every piece of terrain is on the board via terrain rules, LOS etc. If you are still confused after that (majority aren't) its not illegal to ask me further questions man. Bar named HQ's, everything else I run is WYSIWYG. 

 

 

I quoted this post by MeagVolt87 because this is such an important part of having a healthy relationship with this hobby. Taking the 10-15 minutes to have pre-game discussion makes the game a lot more enjoyable or sometimes stops you from having a miserable experience if your both looking for different things (narrative vs. tournament prep). 

[General Strike]

I am not asking anyone too. All I am saying unfair to presume its simply time to call fun police, when someone asks scheme = army.

 

The question is fair on all levels then, do you get bothered like that when it is tyranids, necrons, craftworlds, or any Faction besides first founding marines? What if they're playing Lamenters, does Yellow marines with Blood Angels rules bother you then? Or any successor chapter with inheritor of the Primarch? Idk it seems like a silly hill to die on, and if it bothers you to play against...don't. I'm just saying one rando on the internet is not going to stop me from hobbying how I want, and if that means calling the fun police cause I wouldn't play with you...okay?

[General Strike]

 

 

 

I am the guy who hands my paper excel list with individual points breakdowns/calc, note on pts source (CA X etc) before we discuss what every piece of terrain is on the board via terrain rules, LOS etc. If you are still confused after that (majority aren't) its not illegal to ask me further questions man. Bar named HQ's, everything else I run is WYSIWYG.

 

I quoted this post by MeagVolt87 because this is such an important part of having a healthy relationship with this hobby. Taking the 10-15 minutes to have pre-game discussion makes the game a lot more enjoyable or sometimes stops you from having a miserable experience if your both looking for different things (narrative vs. tournament prep).

I think this works if your opponent is willing. There is a variety of reasons why someone still won't agree, mostly unreasonable ones. The second this stuff gets enforced is the second I stop playing though, because where does it stop? Do I have to have proper campaign badges, squad markings, and battle honors on my minis? What if I don't put a grenade on a marine equipped with them? It just is a silly slippery slope.

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

 

 

 

I am the guy who hands my paper excel list with individual points breakdowns/calc, note on pts source (CA X etc) before we discuss what every piece of terrain is on the board via terrain rules, LOS etc. If you are still confused after that (majority aren't) its not illegal to ask me further questions man. Bar named HQ's, everything else I run is WYSIWYG.

I quoted this post by MeagVolt87 because this is such an important part of having a healthy relationship with this hobby. Taking the 10-15 minutes to have pre-game discussion makes the game a lot more enjoyable or sometimes stops you from having a miserable experience if your both looking for different things (narrative vs. tournament prep).

I think this works if your opponent is willing. There is a variety of reasons why someone still won't agree, mostly unreasonable ones. The second this stuff gets enforced is the second I stop playing though, because where does it stop? Do I have to have proper campaign badges, squad markings, and battle honors on my minis? What if I don't put a grenade on a marine equipped with them? It just is a silly slippery slope.

 

 

To be blunt as someone who has been to fair number of events its not uncommon to see marine armies without squad markings, or chapter markings. So worse comes to worse put a little less effort in.  Heck I've won best painted a smaller tournament because I was the only one with a fully painted and based army.  

 

That said I think a lot of the reason people have a negative view towards this is because the didn't have the conversation and were blindsided when they realized the playing against a different army than they thought they were. There also is the component that like in every hobby there are going to be some unreasonable people. So I do get where your coming from because I have seen how quickly a toxic group can shut down a scene. I do think if you have that conversation though you'll find people to play with or dodge some miserable experiences.

[Schlitzaf]

 

I am not asking anyone too. All I am saying unfair to presume its simply time to call fun police, when someone asks scheme = army.

The question is fair on all levels then, do you get bothered like that when it is tyranids, necrons, craftworlds, or any Faction besides first founding marines? What if they're playing Lamenters, does Yellow marines with Blood Angels rules bother you then? Or any successor chapter with inheritor of the Primarch? Idk it seems like a silly hill to die on, and if it bothers you to play against...don't. I'm just saying one rando on the internet is not going to stop me from hobbying how I want, and if that means calling the fun police cause I wouldn't play with you...okay?

If I look at your army, and based on a preconceived notion I have of what your army is and composed of. Differs radically from what your army is supposed to represent, I would rather not play with you or your army.

 

Do I have a preconcieved notion of proper colour scheming for the noted armies? Sometimes yes. Do I know 100% what those schemes neccesarily represent rules wise? No. So I don’t care. In case of Lamentors, their is a story. I have friend of mine played Aurora marines.

 

I often struggled gaming vs him because I kept thinking they were Salamanders not Ultramarine rule wise. And that I often forgot he could freely fallback. It wasn’t his fault it was mine. And several times espacially later in the day after mh meds started fading our games went slower. Because I had to take tje extra cognitive second to remember “those Tacticals I am about to charge COULD fallback. Or those Hammerators are less scary cause NOT mastercrafted”.

 

I don’t enjoy having what are essentially in many ways ridiculous stipulations for a game. Espacially xause I play Grey Marines (because my adhd makes painting a chore/painful for me). And often convert wildly so I understand folks don’t want to play vs me for some reasons I note above confusing army, etc. I won’t ask someone to play with me or ask they confirm their “Dudes” to fact of my medical restrictions.

 

I will ask when I game vs someone, espacially if its someone whom I am not familiar with. If you are army A be army A (when I have preconceived notions of what Army A is and does). This is also why I struggle/dislike playing vs inner codex soup lists. Yeah those Purple Orks might be Bad Moons and those Yellow Orks, Snakebites, I am almost I will forget. And then forget those Snakebites have 6+ IV save so when I drop my 10 SBros with Pyre Pistols, I’ll forget you have save.

 

Unless its every units in your army.

[phandaal]

 

 

To be blunt as someone who has been to fair number of events its not uncommon to see marine armies without squad markings, or chapter markings. So worse comes to worse put a little less effort in.  Heck I've won best painted a smaller tournament because I was the only one with a fully painted and based army.  

 

That said I think a lot of the reason people have a negative view towards this is because the didn't have the conversation and were blindsided when they realized the playing against a different army than they thought they were. There also is the component that like in every hobby there are going to be some unreasonable people. So I do get where your coming from because I have seen how quickly a toxic group can shut down a scene. I do think if you have that conversation though you'll find people to play with or dodge some miserable experiences.

 

 

My non-Deathwing Dark Angels are painted black because that is their OG color and I like how it looks. No squad markings, very few chapter icons. Got one person one time who was confused about them not being Raven Guard, but they figured it out quick enough.

 

They are always Dark Angels though. Not like I show up to the FLGS one weekend and they are Dark Angels, and then the next they are White Scars, Blood Angels, whatever.

 

Could say they are Black Templars easy enough, but honestly I do not want to play Black Templars.

[Gederas]

With regards to the OP: as long as it's said beforehand, I'm fine with it.

 

I WILL be hella judging you if you have a well-painted and/or converted army that's specific to a Chapter and you're playing BT rules because they're the new hotness though

 

stuff

So... You're basically saying you won't play someone because their army doesn't fit your preconceived notion of what Chapter's colours go with that rule?

 

Using your example, if someone is consistently using Green Marines with Ultramarines rules, any confusion on what their rules are is on you.

 

When you see my marines here, what Chapter do you see? Though to be fair, their shoulder pads probably give it away...

 

They're all Dark Angels

[Schlitzaf]

Um yeah? That is kinda my point. Gederas. I won’t ask someone to change their army for me or vice versa. And answer your question:

Silver Templars or a DIY

Iron Hands until I felt too bright

then Dark Angels.

 

But when I am standing 1-2 feet away in an aerial shot. Then yes I will not see DA.*

 

*I suppose should have added tje above statement was also often an Apoc Megabattle across 3 6 by 4 tables. And we had regular Salamander player their too. But it did happen in some 1v1’s we had. Like we laughed and had a good time. But it did hinder my enjoyment of the game.