Losing our Potency

[McElMcNinja]

It’s seems as more codex are released we become less relevant, I would really like to run a list that isn’t all PBCs and Forgeworld models. There are a few net lists that are competitive, but I personally feel like they aren’t what I would consider a fluff list. What I mean is DG are supposed to be resilient, but as the meta has been changing that just isn’t the case. More and more armies get reduced damage or MW saves (which used to be our thing) and we have to rely more and more on damage output.

Damage output isn’t something we can do effectively without including units outside our codex, which means we spend more money on models/books that aren’t part of our codex. Do we just ride it out or are their things I am missing? Eventually there will be a new addition and we might get our codex early and be in the mix again, at least for a little while.

Not trying to complain, but this codex creep has really put us in a spot that doesn’t leave us many options. Anyone have some ideas or suggestions to keep us relevant in today’s meta?

[INKS]

Part of the problem is that 9th edition is about Ob-sec and screening. This means we have to generally take lots of poxwalkers. We rely on PBC and our terminators to do "the work". That being said we still are in a pretty good place overall. I've seen a few variations on lists.

 

One is poxwalker heavy and Terminator heavy.

The other is PBC maxed, has the Dreads and I guess is the more "classic" of lists you'll likely see floating around.

I can share either of them if you like.

[Wolf Lord Loki]

I think one of the issues is we are a very close range codex. Focusing on the lore of the death guard and the effects they you see written about in stories (plague collapsing men as death guard attack, plodding slow inexorable assaults)

 

Plagueburst crawlers were only introduced in 8th edition so up until that point plague marines weren't seen to use stuff like that

 

FW models (such as the contemptor) help balance the lack of ranged weapons. Where as a lot of the other armies don't have these stereotypes.

 

They are seen to use ranged weapons and strategies to keep enemies at a distance

 

Thing is what's your meta? If you are mostly competitive -creep is always going to be an issue. If for no other reason new has trick you haven't learnt to counter yet while old has been disected and analysed.

 

I play for fun with a couple of friends and I hardly ever use poxwalkers. But I have to plan to get my plague marines front and center fast

 

Everybody expects poxwalkers and terminators so they are prepared to counter them

[Lord Marshal]

9th in general just feels like The power creep edition by design. 

[INKS]

Well there are two over powered Dex's. The others are all within a reasonable amount of power. The earlier your codex was released the worst it's going to hold up sadly. Necrons are in a bad place, DG are still fairly competitive. 

[brother_b]

To be fair forge world models are showing up in a lot of tournament lists for power armor armies, regardless of loyalty.

 

There are four top tier lists that seem to be very powerful; admech, dark elder, sob, certain ork builds.

 

Right below those powerful armies are DG and a handful of others imho.

 

I don’t worry about tournament games because that’s not what we are playing here in the garage, or at the club. My sons death guard are terrifying to my armies.

 

Some of the first Codex releases do look a fair bit less powerful, blood angels, necrons, I think they’ve been trying to do a good job. It’s just the nature of this game system.

 

Are you having trouble playing against your friends, or are you into the tournaments scene? I can see it being a little bit frustrating if you were actually running up against players you can’t deal with.

[Tokugawa]

DG has bad matchup to Admech even before their new book.

[KingYertle]

It’s seems as more codex are released we become less relevant, I would really like to run a list that isn’t all PBCs and Forgeworld models. 

 

I can understand the frustration Ninja.  On a positive note, Chirugeon over at Goonhammer has been documenting his competitive play with Death Guard, and his list is not full of FW nonsense, in fact he actually has plague marines in his army!  He has had decent success.  His blog posts are definitely worthy of a read for Death Guard fans.

 

IMO, our army used to be very forgiving.  DR dice could go hot at the right time and bail us out of difficult situations.  We had options to lean into DR when you needed it.  I once had a unit of Plague Marines charged by Bullgryn and b/w the Surgeon granting re-rolls of 1s and 2s and Putrid Fecundity to succeed DR on a 4+ I didn't loose a single model.  In that same game I had a Contaminated Monstrosity Rhino survive one 1 wound vs a ridiculous amount of firepower because of some hot DR dice (and the 5++ aura relic).  For better or worse all those options are gone now, so our army plays very different.  I find I need to be much more calculated in my play, and when I make a tactical error the army no longer has the resiliency to bail me out.  This isn't just due to DG having less options to boost resiliency, as obviously other armies have become much more deadly.

 

GW has always been the poster child for Power Creep.  It was inevitable that our early codex would not age well.  But even if the newer codexes have more baseline strengths, our codex doesn't suck, there are good options in there.  GW has definitely published some busted armies rules for Druhkari and Ad Mech, and when up against those types of armies I'd recommend tailoring your expectations accordingly.   

 

EBIT:  Added link to the Goonhammer blog I reference. 

https://www.goonhammer.com/thechirurgeons-road-through-2021-part-9-the-gw-new-orleans-open-part-1-of-2/

Edited October 18, 2021 by MCB82

[INKS]

Got a link? I'll google it, since I am interested.

[Relentless]

I just played a GT with Terminus Est,  It is not competetive at all, though it is fun to play with super poxwalkers.  I played against 3 near identical DG lists with contemptor and pbc spam.  I saw some of their other games, and as soon as their dreads died it was gg for them.  I hate how Foregworld has become a required crutch for chaos players.

[Hannibal]

I just played a GT with Terminus Est,  It is not competetive at all, though it is fun to play with super poxwalkers.

Mmhh, at London GT one player achieved 3rd place with Terminus Est.

 

I hate how Foregworld has become a required crutch for chaos players.

I´m in the game for roughly 20 years now and FW ever had "must have" models or at least super strong models. I remember the days when you could get that Eldar transporter only from FW...

[Relentless]

 

I just played a GT with Terminus Est,  It is not competetive at all, though it is fun to play with super poxwalkers.

Mmhh, at London GT one player achieved 3rd place with Terminus Est.

 

 

Sure, in the hands of a very experienced player, almost any list could place well.  I'd also like to see what armies and players he went up against, as I doubt he would do as well against the current ork buggie/flyer meta.  Terminus Est just doesnt have the firepower to deal with vehicle heavy lists, so opponents dont bother hiding in deployment and can start as far up as they can get, meanwhile, you have to hide everything to avoid a T1 alpha strike that, as I experienced, can easily wipe two 20-man poxwalker squads before you even get to move.

[Tokugawa]

FW stuff being "must buy" would severely harm the players base. GW dislike it even more than players.

 

Since frequently FAQs introduced to 40k in 8th, few FW unit which proved "competitive" in tournament could escape axe. Calladius, Dimacheron, Telemon… we could see what will happen with contemptor this winter.

[McElMcNinja]

Do you think the Contemptor needs FAQed? When you look at what is doing well out there, sure they are in a lot of the top DG lists, but the strong factions don’t use them. I think that would just make the other factions that much better against us, pushing us even further away from being competitive.

[Relentless]

Do you think the Contemptor needs FAQed? When you look at what is doing well out there, sure they are in a lot of the top DG lists, but the strong factions don’t use them. I think that would just make the other factions that much better against us, pushing us even further away from being competitive.

 

I agree.  They're mostly whats keeping CSM afloat right now and I dont think they should be FAQd until that codex comes out.  However, I fully expect them to lose the Core keyword this winter, and probably increased cost for volkite.

[Wolf Lord Loki]

Do you think the Contemptor needs FAQed? When you look at what is doing well out there, sure they are in a lot of the top DG lists, but the strong factions don’t use them. I think that would just make the other factions that much better against us, pushing us even further away from being competitive.

I dunno if they need FAQ-ing. I've had games with mine where they are hot and all the regular shots get through and I also get a bucket load of mortals.

 

And then I've had games with virtually no mortals and cos they have such a low AP modifier the shots bounce off

[MegaVolt87]

FW stuff doesn't even need a points bump, just eliminate core to cut strategem interactions will be more than enough. If GW didn't want armies to take FW, the new 9th ed book would have not made them as effective. The community self regulates also, many are stuck with FW bans in local communities and many GW stores also ban FW models in 40k and just forget about trying to play 30k in a warhammer store as well. In my area, I am probably one of the few players counted on one hand that owns anything from FW. Ironic that non FW knights are ok, but they are a lot more oppressive to face in comparison.