Wound issue: Primarch vs Primaris Chapter Masters

[Helias_Tancred]

When Marneus Calgar crossed the rubicon primaris and came out the other end with 8 wounds, it wasn't taken as a big deal because of who it was and he was always a bit tougher than the standard chapter master to begin with, after all the guy has more in common physically with the Iron Hands than he does the Ultramarines

 

Now that Helbrecht has crossed the primaris river of no return, he also has emerged with 8 wounds. I ask myself if Dante, Azrael, Kantor, etc will also emerge with 7 or 8 wounds? (Poor Shrike only got 6).

 

Our lone representative of an un-daemoned primarch in 40k, Guilliman, has 9 wounds.

 

Now I know of all the additional benefits and powers Guilliman brings vs only looking at the wound comparison, but in my brain I'm having a hard time squaring that more primaris chapter masters than not are now 1 wound less "tough" or enduring than a primarch! So a primaris Helbrecht is only one wound less enduring than say Sanguinius? Or Russ? Or The Lion?

 

Playing a big role in this is a rule. Move Guilliman to 10+ and he can now be freely targeted, as the rule is intended for large characters.

 

Personally I'm comfortable with our only unaltered primarch retaining his 3 wound difference over chapter masters, he is a primarch! So that would put him up to 11. I'd FAQ the rule to not count against primarchs. I've talked this over with a friend and he argued the 1 point wound difference is fine, since a primarch brings a slew of other benefits. I get that, but I also can't rationalize the 1 wound difference between primarchs and a primaris chapter master. Even two, say if Dante and Azrael were put at 7 wounds each, still sorta bugs me.

 

Anyways I'm posing this issue to a larger audience to see what the rest of you think? Curious of others rationale on this.

Edited October 18, 2021 by Helias Tancred

[Medjugorje]

back in 3rd to 5th edition. Calgar and Helbrecht were the only ones with 4 wounds after GW give the Chapter masters 4 wounds in general.

[phandaal]

Objectively, I'd say the Lion should have 15 wounds, a 2+ armor save, a 2+ invulnerable save, a 2+ feel no pain, and a cap of 1 wound per battle round. After all, even getting blasted with a warp storm on an exploding planet wasn't enough to do more than make him need a light nap.

 

Seems very fair and balanced, coming from someone with no bias whatsoever.

[Blindhamster]

Dante has 6 atm, if he crosses I’d expect him to go to 7, same for the others. The exception to that will be if any of them already had 7, then they’d go to 8. Or if any of them get a multi model base like helbrecht, in which case I think they’d also go to 8. The primaris treatment usually equates to +1 attack and wound, with some characters getting new rules and others (Mephiston…) getting nothing but the basic treatment

[Medjugorje]

Dante has 6 atm, if he crosses I’d expect him to go to 7, same for the others. The exception to that will be if any of them already had 7, then they’d go to 8. Or if any of them get a multi model base like helbrecht, in which case I think they’d also go to 8. The primaris treatment usually equates to +1 attack and wound, with some characters getting new rules and others (Mephiston…) getting nothing but the basic treatment

Maybe because he would be too powerful to have a jump pack chapter master? No I think he will have 8 wounds too.

 

EDIT: maybe he will get an angel-cherub who clean up his axe^^

Edited October 18, 2021 by Medjugorje

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

When Marneus Calgar crossed the rubicon primaris and came out the other end with 8 wounds, it wasn't taken as a big deal because of who it was and he was always a bit tougher than the standard chapter master to begin with, after all the guy has more in common physically with the Iron Hands than he does the Ultramarines

 

Now that Helbrecht has crossed the primaris river of no return, he also has emerged with 8 wounds. I ask myself if Dante, Azrael, Kantor, etc will also emerge with 7 or 8 wounds? (Poor Shrike only got 6).

 

Our lone representative of an un-daemoned primarch in 40k, Guilliman, has 9 wounds.

 

Now I know of all the additional benefits and powers Guilliman brings vs only looking at the wound comparison, but in my brain I'm having a hard time squaring that more primaris chapter masters than not are now 1 wound less "tough" or enduring than a primarch! So a primaris Helbrecht is only one wound less enduring than say Sanguinius? Or Russ? Or The Lion?

 

Playing a big role in this is a rule. Move Guilliman to 10+ and he can now be freely targeted, as the rule is intended for large characters.

 

Personally I'm comfortable with our only unaltered primarch retaining his 3 wound difference over chapter masters, he is a primarch! So that would put him up to 11. I'd FAQ the rule to not count against primarchs. I've talked this over with a friend and he argued the 1 point wound difference is fine, since a primarch brings a slew of other benefits. I get that, but I also can't rationalize the 1 wound difference between primarchs and a primaris chapter master. Even two, say if Dante and Azrael were put at 7 wounds each, still sorta bugs me.

 

Anyways I'm posing this issue to a larger audience to see what the rest of you think? Curious of others rationale on this.

why shouldn’t a player be able to target a primarch?

They’re like 12ft tall amongst 7-9ft tall space marines…it makes perfect sense that it would be easy to spot and pick out guilliman on the battlefield

[Bryan Blaire]

I think some of the rationale behind it is that the Primaris Marines are even closer in production to the Primarchs than the standard Astartes pattern was with part of the actual “Primarch organ” implanted as part of the process.

 

That said, yes, I think a lot of the low wound amount for Guilliman is the targeting rule - just one wound difference does feel a little too close, but two or three probably don’t make that much of a difference either.

 

One thing I think bears evaluating though is what GW means by a Wound vs. some other damage resistance value.  It might be good if Guilliman had a different or even additional rule for the Armor of Fate - likely something more like Ghaz with the “no more than X wounds a turn” rule.  Also could do with a boost to Toughness, IMO.

[Captain Idaho]

It's 1 wound and toughness 6, compared to and 5 respectively for those Primaris characters.

 

Toughness 4 is hugely different to 6. Wounded on a 4+ by mere bolters, whilst S8 wounds on a 2+ instead of a 3+.

 

It's fairly big deal in that regard really.

 

However, I'd be happy to see Guilliman go to a higher toughness eh ;)

[Helias_Tancred]

 

When Marneus Calgar crossed the rubicon primaris and came out the other end with 8 wounds, it wasn't taken as a big deal because of who it was and he was always a bit tougher than the standard chapter master to begin with, after all the guy has more in common physically with the Iron Hands than he does the Ultramarines

 

Now that Helbrecht has crossed the primaris river of no return, he also has emerged with 8 wounds. I ask myself if Dante, Azrael, Kantor, etc will also emerge with 7 or 8 wounds? (Poor Shrike only got 6).

 

Our lone representative of an un-daemoned primarch in 40k, Guilliman, has 9 wounds.

 

Now I know of all the additional benefits and powers Guilliman brings vs only looking at the wound comparison, but in my brain I'm having a hard time squaring that more primaris chapter masters than not are now 1 wound less "tough" or enduring than a primarch! So a primaris Helbrecht is only one wound less enduring than say Sanguinius? Or Russ? Or The Lion?

 

Playing a big role in this is a rule. Move Guilliman to 10+ and he can now be freely targeted, as the rule is intended for large characters.

 

Personally I'm comfortable with our only unaltered primarch retaining his 3 wound difference over chapter masters, he is a primarch! So that would put him up to 11. I'd FAQ the rule to not count against primarchs. I've talked this over with a friend and he argued the 1 point wound difference is fine, since a primarch brings a slew of other benefits. I get that, but I also can't rationalize the 1 wound difference between primarchs and a primaris chapter master. Even two, say if Dante and Azrael were put at 7 wounds each, still sorta bugs me.

 

Anyways I'm posing this issue to a larger audience to see what the rest of you think? Curious of others rationale on this.

why shouldn’t a player be able to target a primarch?

They’re like 12ft tall amongst 7-9ft tall space marines…it makes perfect sense that it would be easy to spot and pick out guilliman on the battlefield

 

 

I was just stating their rule. TBH I haven't really considered that? I definitely see what you mean. Black Library stated that primarchs were normally head and shoulders above a standard marine, with some deviating from that (Magnus, Vulkan, and & Alpharius) for what its worth?

[Medjugorje]

Give Gulliman -1 damage and you would see me playing him 100 percent.  FnP in addition and you have that monster what everyone would expect. He does not need 9+ Wounds.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

 

 

 

When Marneus Calgar crossed the rubicon primaris and came out the other end with 8 wounds, it wasn't taken as a big deal because of who it was and he was always a bit tougher than the standard chapter master to begin with, after all the guy has more in common physically with the Iron Hands than he does the Ultramarines

 

Now that Helbrecht has crossed the primaris river of no return, he also has emerged with 8 wounds. I ask myself if Dante, Azrael, Kantor, etc will also emerge with 7 or 8 wounds? (Poor Shrike only got 6).

 

Our lone representative of an un-daemoned primarch in 40k, Guilliman, has 9 wounds.

 

Now I know of all the additional benefits and powers Guilliman brings vs only looking at the wound comparison, but in my brain I'm having a hard time squaring that more primaris chapter masters than not are now 1 wound less "tough" or enduring than a primarch! So a primaris Helbrecht is only one wound less enduring than say Sanguinius? Or Russ? Or The Lion?

 

Playing a big role in this is a rule. Move Guilliman to 10+ and he can now be freely targeted, as the rule is intended for large characters.

 

Personally I'm comfortable with our only unaltered primarch retaining his 3 wound difference over chapter masters, he is a primarch! So that would put him up to 11. I'd FAQ the rule to not count against primarchs. I've talked this over with a friend and he argued the 1 point wound difference is fine, since a primarch brings a slew of other benefits. I get that, but I also can't rationalize the 1 wound difference between primarchs and a primaris chapter master. Even two, say if Dante and Azrael were put at 7 wounds each, still sorta bugs me.

 

Anyways I'm posing this issue to a larger audience to see what the rest of you think? Curious of others rationale on this.

why shouldn’t a player be able to target a primarch?

They’re like 12ft tall amongst 7-9ft tall space marines…it makes perfect sense that it would be easy to spot and pick out guilliman on the battlefield

I was just stating their rule. TBH I haven't really considered that? I definitely see what you mean. Black Library stated that primarchs were normally head and shoulders above a standard marine, with some deviating from that (Magnus, Vulkan, and & Alpharius) for what its worth?

yeah the rules for targeting characters have said things like “this rule represents the chaos of the battlefield and everyone constantly moving around smoke/fog/etc making it difficult to identify leaders from normal troops.

Therefore based on that description/rationale for the rule it makes sense that a primarch wouldn’t get the benefits of said rule imho.

Give him 11-12 wounds and and a -1 damage rule, lose the no targeting him rule and I say it’s a fair and even trade that makes sense

Edited October 18, 2021 by Inquisitor_Lensoven

[Captain Idaho]

He's not THAT big. Primarchs have been known to travel inside Astartes vehicles even, plus Custodes aren't that much smaller. It's fine Guilliman not being targeted.

 

It also harkens back to his fluff. In his Primarch novel, for all its flaws, he strides independently around the battlefield avoiding trouble whilst directing his men like an artist. Artillery strikes blasting metres from him that he calls in, timed to perfection etc.

[Cryptshadow]

I mean if your gonna give him wounds at least give him 20. 3+ fnp t8 and the emperors swords says :cuss u to rules that would impede its awesomeness. When he wakes up hes swathing through heretic terminators like tjey were babies picking them up with his power fist as they probably imitated a child flailing his arms and legs.

 

Im only half joking. Guilliman might be an amazing statesmen and general but he was also a warlord and hes a freaking primarch, one untainted by chaos stds mind you. He can and should be durable and also be a force multiplier.

Edited October 26, 2021 by duz_
Don't dodge the swear filter

[9x19 Parabellum]

It definitely makes sense to me, and works mechanically, to have different Chapter Masters with different wound levels.

 

Shrike just got promoted in the lore, from a Captain, so it makes sense his lack of experience (comparatively speaking) and "lighter" phobos armor only results in 6 wounds.

 

Helbrecht has been crusading for over a century, has extrememly heavy artificier armor and a lot of battlefield pain and experience. (Yes I know that artificer armor, mechanically, only results in a 2+ save, I'm suggesting that the whole of these things, mechanically, is greater than the sum of their parts).

 

Similarly for Marneus, who's Primaris power armor is a weird hybrid of new power armor and terminator armor.

 

I'd be happy to see Dante with 7 wounds, given that he's a jump packer and maybe his armor is "lighter/less robust" than Helbrecht, even though they both have artificer armor.  If that happens, I'd like to see Dante with special buff rules befitting his 1,500 years of combat experience.

 

Pedro Kantor strikes me as a 6 wound CM (if primarisized)

 

If Imperial Fist chapter master made it in with Terminator style armor, like Marneus, I could see him at 7 wounds.  If not, 6

 

Khan is at 6 wounds...given the "fast" nature of White Scars, I'm ok with this. I imagine WS players would like to see him at 7, which would be ok if he was riding a bike.

 

If Iron Hands ever named a CM, I would imagine the bionics would justify 7 wounds, similar to IFF.

 

In short, I think the thinking goes something like this:

 

Non Primaris Chapter Master: 5 wounds base.

Primaris Chapter Master:  6 wounds base. (Shrike)

is equipped in "Terminator-ish" armor, or heavy armor (like artificer), or some similar fluffy thing:  +1 wound (Helbrecht, Marneus, Iron Father Feirros)

has a deep lore/legacy with a lot of battlefield experience and narrative precedent for surviving: +1 wound (Helbrecht, Marneus, Dante*, Azrael, Pedro)

 

This "formula" gets us all the current chapter master wound values, with, I think, accurate speculations for Dante going to 7 if/when he gets primarisized.

Edited October 19, 2021 by 9x19 Parabellum

[WrathOfTheLion]

Definitely has to do more with targeting rules I think. I think they should explore making Guilliman more durable, because the 9 Wound vs 10+ is probably still favorable from a gaming perspective.

 

Dante I think should be up at 8, because he's not just Primaris if they update him, he's almost the equivalent of Guilliman in a way given his station, and I kind of see him more in that light.

Edited October 19, 2021 by WrathOfTheLion

[Orange Knight]

I wouldn't be too concerned over wound count. It is only one aspect of a unit's stat-line. The Storm-speeder has 1 less wound than a Predator, for example.

 

Guilliman is toughness 6, whilst Helbrecht is toughness 4, so the count isn't everything. I think the underwhelming rules the Primarch has is what's causing us to question the wound counts of the new Primaris heroes.

Guilliman's rules have several failings; He isn't as durable as his stature and points indicate he should be, and he needs a significant tune up in terms of what he does on the table. For example, Helbrecht's sword is as deadly as the Emperor's sword, more or less. The Primarch also needs some type of damage mitigation ability, like a cap on how many wounds he can receive or a rule to reduce the damage he takes. But further discussion on this is starting to veer off-topic.

 

As for Chapter masters - I think their stature and armour types vary from one to the other. I do think that Shrike needs a boost to 7 wounds. This would then explain why Helbrecht and Calgar have 8 - their unique artificer/gravis armours provide the extra wound.

 

Named Firstborn CM - 6 wounds (CM in Terminator armour or on bike should have 7)

Named Primaris CM - 7 Wounds (Primaris CM in fancy armour or on bike should have 8)

 

Going back to Primarchs, I wouldn't be surprised if a Primarch actually starts out with 8 wounds. Guilliman is wearing a big, bulky suit that could be conferring an extra wound. I wouldn't be surprised if a Leman Russ model with lighter armour only had 8 wounds, as an example, but stuck to the toughness of 6.

[Medjugorje]

dont forget that any model with -1dmg or other abilites is much better then any other character - even it has 2 or 3 wounds more.

[Captain Idaho]

Well any other character is a big of a sweeping statement but damage mitigation is sure powerful.

 

After what GW did with Morvenn Vahl I think Guilliman is due a big update. But we shall see anyway.

[Orange Knight]

Well any other character is a big of a sweeping statement but damage mitigation is sure powerful.

 

After what GW did with Morvenn Vahl I think Guilliman is due a big update. But we shall see anyway.

I agree with this. Her rules are pretty fantastic, and the points are very low, comparatively, to Guilliman. She's actually more effective as both a damage dealer and a force multiplier.

 

I feel this comes back to the outdated supplements for the Codex chapters. Fists, Ultras and Raven Guard in particular.

[Schlitzaf]

Helbrecht also has two attendants with him

[Lord Raven 19]

I mean, Shrike was done really dirty, he doesn't get the CM extra wounds at all (they were never updated upon his promotion) and he doesn't get any extra attacks for having 2 lightning claws. In my opinion, he should be pushed to more wounds. Admittedly Guilliman is in a bad place as well, and I like the idea of giving him a -1 damage and a couple extra wounds, if only because it saves me 3cp each time my dominus knights shoot him with their missiles.

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

 

Well any other character is a big of a sweeping statement but damage mitigation is sure powerful.

 

After what GW did with Morvenn Vahl I think Guilliman is due a big update. But we shall see anyway.

I agree with this. Her rules are pretty fantastic, and the points are very low, comparatively, to Guilliman. She's actually more effective as both a damage dealer and a force multiplier.

 

I feel this comes back to the outdated supplements for the Codex chapters. Fists, Ultras and Raven Guard in particular.

 

 

Yeah Guilliman is due for an update, that said I don't know if GW wants to push that kit to hard. It's very consumer friendly for new players and then they outgrow it when they look at tournaments. I actually think Vahl will be in a similar position soon (I wouldn't be surprised to see her points go up with how strong sisters are, and how many lists she is in). I know that is a pessimistic viewpoint but on the other hand Ultra's and Sisters shouldn't be toned down for one kit either.

 

Yeah hopefully they update supplements soon, maybe a bit more spread out because a lot of fractions need love. I do feel pretty strongly that all the marine armies should work more like Templars where the super doctrine, is always active and maybe comes with a drawback that fits the chapter and isn't too hard to play around.