Relic bearers. which combination is worth it?

[Medjugorje]

do you already played them already?

 

Icon of Heinman

How should those Relics have an effect on the game when you have the ability just for one model? Most times its not worth it to make a 2 wound model a relic bearer. If selected as target then the oppontent will shoot against this unit with high damage which most times ignoring this ability. Best thing for this relic is a Bladeguard which is played as a flanking unit. Against -3AP or higher you have to take other models but in any other case you still have a2+ saving throw. I think its clearly overrated.

 

Crux Obsidian

I tried it on a ATV but not even with 8 wounds it was worth it. Its amazing on a tanky unit like TErminator or BGV model in combination with a selfless healer and litany of devine protection. In comparison Dark Angels are not S-Tier although they can have -1 damage + regular and far better Transhuman and Obsec without spending CPs on the same unit. DA  have even more options for their terminators and a strong superdoctrine with rerolls against hard opponents. But its clearly better then any other Relic on this list.

 

Holy orb

I think this is worth it on Vanguard Veteran squad or on Assault intercessors in a MSU list when you charge more then one unit so the opponent cannot interrupt. Another option is on a big Primaris crusadersquad which is already locked up in combat or charges. When more charges are made you can choose all other units first. But if you have the slot and points for a Judiciar - its even cheaper to use him in each of your own turns and with devout push as trap in the opponent phase. I think its not that bad as I thought - but not that great as some others belief

 

Fist of Balthus

I like this one really. But its just one Assault Intercessor Seargent. But its clearly an autotake although it wont have that big impact on the game.

 

Seal of Sigismund

The greatest opportunity GW has failed so far. Its clearly nice in a fungame where your opponent run into your army and want that epic fight .... 

but in an objective view you will never reach that one unit except you choose one unit which is always close to your army normally (inflitrators etc). But if its an important unit then its a waste of points and makes your unit even more a target of everything. GW had easy missed the opportunity to let them reroll 1s on hits and woundrolls against all opponent units and just against one unit all dice. Then it would really be fine but not broken.

 

Holy light

hmmm. dont think its ever worth the points for +1morale and a very weak ability against psykers

 

Flamer (cant remember the english name yet)

If you have a normal flamer then the upgrade is worth it. Especialy if you play them in a Sternguard squad with lots of combiflamers. But sadly this unit is very expensive and I dont think they will be played competitive. And a pyroblaster are bad. In general its not bad but far away from an autotake.

 

Bones of Mordred

I think I overlooked this one first. But on lighting claws its often one mortal wound on average. Especially against tougher enemies you have to reroll wound roll more often, so in average its more then one mortal wound.

Edited October 19, 2021 by Medjugorje

[Tokugawa]

Crux: I think it be better given to the unit which would tank the most attacks, not "can tank the most attacks"; which means this unit is the unit your opponent want to delete first.

 

Lennon recommend eradicators, imo it is a good idea.

[Medjugorje]

yeah. But I think Eradicators are played with devout push. 

[Mandragola]

I generally agree that none of these things are particularly game-changing. Some are decent and fun though.

 

I think the timing of Sigismund's seal makes it better than it might appear. You'll know what your unit is likely to end up fighting when you activate it. You could give it to a unit of something like vanvets and have them charge off to attack, outside the range of auras. I looked at whether it would make sense to swap claws for swords in this case but it probably doesn't. Overall it's probably better to keep the claws and have Helbrecht tell them to reroll to hit.

[Medjugorje]

I generally agree that none of these things are particularly game-changing. Some are decent and fun though.

 

I think the timing of Sigismund's seal makes it better than it might appear. You'll know what your unit is likely to end up fighting when you activate it. You could give it to a unit of something like vanvets and have them charge off to attack, outside the range of auras. I looked at whether it would make sense to swap claws for swords in this case but it probably doesn't. Overall it's probably better to keep the claws and have Helbrecht tell them to reroll to hit.

yes. it would be the special unit which does not need any character nearby. But the only squad which is fast enough to reach THAT declared unit already have that abilities if you want them. 

[a_typical_hero]

I will try out Sigismund's seal with 5 Bladeguards + character in an Impulsor in the future. My list will feature 4 Dreadnoughts in addition for target saturation. Let's see.

[Marshal Loss]

It's also worth noting the "mind game" value inherent in the selection of Sigismund's Seal - depending on both the unit the relic is bestowed upon and their target, it could conceivably force your opponent to play around it. Even if you don't manage to get your unit into contact with theirs, if they're playing around it, then the investment may well be worth it. It can be used to paint an enormous target on a key unit and that's often the kind of thing an opponent can't ignore.

[Brother Kraskor]

It's also worth noting the "mind game" value inherent in the selection of Sigismund's Seal - depending on both the unit the relic is bestowed upon and their target, it could conceivably force your opponent to play around it. Even if you don't manage to get your unit into contact with theirs, if they're playing around it, then the investment may well be worth it. It can be used to paint an enormous target on a key unit and that's often the kind of thing an opponent can't ignore.

 

+1 to the mindgame point. Put on a unit of Assault Terminators, nominate enemy's favourite unit. They are going to behave differently knowing they could deep strike anywhere and wreck face!

 

Also Light of Emperor's Grace, combined with Skull of Cacodominus and a character with Epitome of Piety makes for pretty effective anti-psyker. 

 

Edit: Throw in Reliquary of Gathalamor to above combo and enemy psykers are all but nullified! -3 to cast and -4 for one turn, Perils on any double, failed tests resulting in D3 mortal wounds on a 4+, and one Deny at +1 per turn.

Edited October 19, 2021 by Brother Kraskor

[9x19 Parabellum]

For the same reason mentioned above, I think the Icon of Heinmann is absolutely worth it on a BGV sergeant*.  As Medj said, now the opponent has to fire his AP -3 (or better) guns against BGV in order to reliably kill them.  Ok.  And guess what is NOT being shot by AP-3 (or better):  Your impulsors and redemptor dreadnoughts.  There is SO much inefficiency involved with shooting a BGV with a melta/lascannon/overcharged plasma/dark lance/entropy cannon etc.

 

-they are usually low volume shots

-you have a 50/50 chance to bounce off the invuln save

-you have a 50/50 chance to not wound from Transhuman

-if you roll a 1 or 2 on damage, the model is not dead. If you roll a 5 or 6 on damage, you're wasting most of it that would not have been wasted on proper armored targets.

-you can bring a BGV back with an Apothecary

 

NOT bringing the icon of Heinmann means all his high volume/low AP shots are going into the BGV, exactly as you'd expect. Bringing it means he has no good options for dealing with BGV.   You completely mess with your opponent's targeting by bringing along a 15 pt. upgrade. That's very good IMHO.

 

 

*While I'm using BGV in my example, a similar argument can be made for Assault Termies or VV with storm shields, although personally I think that THP makes BGV the premier tanky unit.

 

3 BGV with Icon is 120 pts.  Upgrade the sgt with Champ of Feasts, and Sword of Judgment and you have 10 wound WS: 2+, S:7, AP:-3, D:3,A:6 psycho who is basically a captain protected by more ablative wounds.  Personally I'd go 5 models to maximize THP efficiency.

Edited October 19, 2021 by 9x19 Parabellum

[Mandragola]

Yes I think that's very good on BGVs. They're also a good unit to run for BTs because they work well in BTs' excellent Impulsors, making for a good combo overall.

 

I also like the -1D upgrade on something like an Aggressor. This is where I'd put the Champion of the Feast upgrade too. Sticking a guy with 4W and -1D into an aggressor squad would make the unit dramatically less vulnerable to 2 or 3D weapons, especially if there was a FNP aura around for some reason - and adding an apothecary in this context probably makes sense. Against 1D stuff they have a strat for +1 save. I think BT aggressors might be a little bit of a sleeper hit from the codex as the thing they've always really needed was an invulnerable save, and now they get one. Plus of course you can use Heretic's pyre if you want for 2CP and unleash an absurd number of auto-hitting flamer shots.

 

As for the Sword of Judgement, I think that's probably best on someone with a normal power sword rather than a master-crafted one. The Sword Brother leading a large Crusader Squad would be a good option, for example. You get a bit more for your CP to go from 1D to 3D, and it makes a bit more of a difference to the unit, I think.

[9x19 Parabellum]

That's a good point, Mandragola. I forgot about aggressors because:

 

a.) they are soooo 8th edition :-) 

b.) I try not to have unit overlap between my BT and my RG, so my RG had first dibs on Aggressors being an older supplement.

 

Also good point on the Sword of Judgment. I just really like the idea of making that BGV Sgt a force to be reckoned with, but yes, putting it on a Crusade Squad's SB is probably a smarter move to spread the damage around.

[Medjugorje]

Yes I think that's very good on BGVs. They're also a good unit to run for BTs because they work well in BTs' excellent Impulsors, making for a good combo overall.

 

I also like the -1D upgrade on something like an Aggressor. This is where I'd put the Champion of the Feast upgrade too. Sticking a guy with 4W and -1D into an aggressor squad would make the unit dramatically less vulnerable to 2 or 3D weapons, especially if there was a FNP aura around for some reason - and adding an apothecary in this context probably makes sense. Against 1D stuff they have a strat for +1 save. I think BT aggressors might be a little bit of a sleeper hit from the codex as the thing they've always really needed was an invulnerable save, and now they get one. Plus of course you can use Heretic's pyre if you want for 2CP and unleash an absurd number of auto-hitting flamer shots.

 

As for the Sword of Judgement, I think that's probably best on someone with a normal power sword rather than a master-crafted one. The Sword Brother leading a large Crusader Squad would be a good option, for example. You get a bit more for your CP to go from 1D to 3D, and it makes a bit more of a difference to the unit, I think.

But then it would be a heavy intercessor squad which can build up to 10 models - same input  and obsec and far cheaper. play them with some Vangaurd Vets which will be buffed my Grimaldus if they getting charged and in our turn we can have a unit nearby with holy orb that they cannot interrupt. I think there is no unit which can destroy all of them in one turn. especialy not the MSU concepts.

[L30n1d4s]

As discussed in some other threads, I really like Fist of Balthus on a Vanguard Vet Sergeant... combined with "Champion of the Feast" upgrade and Mastercrafting, this gives you a model with 5 x S8 AP-3 Dmg4 attacks on the charge, all at WS2+ and built in 12" move/Fly.

 

Throw in rerolls to hit and +1 to wound Litany support from a nearby BT Chaplain, a Storm Shield (to make him 3W with 2+/4++), and 8 ablative wounds from the rest of his squad and this guy easily outperforms most Chapter Masters in both damage output and durability.

[Medjugorje]

normally relics cannot be upgraded - but relic bearer are different. Never thought on this idea.

[Charlo]

I'd imagine that won't survive FAQ

[Mandragola]

Master-crafting the fist of Balthus is inspired, and probably not legal for long. It becomes a pretty phenomenal weapon, it’s true. My only concern for adding it to assault intercessors is that you’d have a relatively fragile unit, likely to attract unreasonable amounts of hatred from opponents.

 

I’m not sure what’s being talked about with heavy intercessors. They could potentially have a place in a BT list as objective holders but I wouldn’t bother with the -1D relic on them. They’re already tough enough, hanging around in the DZ, preferably in cover (though not under uphold…).

 

The reason for making aggressors tough is that they’re dangerous, so people want to kill them. Heavy intercessors aren’t especially dangerous, for their price, and are relatively tough already.

[Medjugorje]

Master-crafting the fist of Balthus is inspired, and probably not legal for long. It becomes a pretty phenomenal weapon, it’s true. My only concern for adding it to assault intercessors is that you’d have a relatively fragile unit, likely to attract unreasonable amounts of hatred from opponents.

 

I’m not sure what’s being talked about with heavy intercessors. They could potentially have a place in a BT list as objective holders but I wouldn’t bother with the -1D relic on them. They’re already tough enough, hanging around in the DZ, preferably in cover (though not under uphold…).

 

The reason for making aggressors tough is that they’re dangerous, so people want to kill them. Heavy intercessors aren’t especially dangerous, for their price, and are relatively tough already.

thats why you take them. They stand still on the objective marker as plattform where your characters can hide and put the other parts of your army to buff them.

[Hymnblade]

Re: Seal of Sigismund, if your opponent has to change their entire game plan for a key unit to avoid your 20-point upgrade, that's a clear win in my book. If they don't, it's a very nice damage boost, in addition to letting the squad do well without character support. I think this one will be worth taking in most lists, unless you just have to drop 20 points somewhere, or all your CC units already have a different relic.

 

Holy Orb seems like the closest to auto-include, ideally on a VVet squad or maybe on Outriders/an attack bike to make sure you can deliver it. It's a lot cheaper than taking a Whirlwind just for the strat.

 

Crux Obsidian and Icon of Heinemann seem... interesting, especially in combination with an Apothecary to rez the model over and over. This has really obvious counterplay - just make sure to wipe the whole unit - but even if you never get to do the Apothecary trick, the upgrade is way cheaper than a Bladeguard or Terminator, so if it saves you just one model every other game, it's already making its points back. I feel like these have potential, but I need to try them in play to get a sense of how much they actually matter, or whether your opponent just sequences their shooting a little differently and makes them moot.

 

If your list has a VVet sergeant and the squad isn't already taking the Orb or Seal, I think there's little reason not to throw the Fist of Balthus on the sergeant; it's far better than a hammer or relic blade for just a few points more. If he's Champion of the Feast, doubly so.

 

The others seem kind of eh. Anti-psyker tech in a TAC list is always awkward, Beastpyre seems fun but we don't have a lot of good models with flamers to put it on, and the Bones are a pretty marginal damage increase (like yeah, maybe on a VVet with claws, but your VVets want other relics way more).

 

Just generally, I think being able to stack Revered Repositories and Relic Bearers and Champion of the Feast on the same unit makes for some potentially awesome combos. You can have crazy-dangerous sergeants who make their whole squad impossible to kill and then come back every turn. This seems like a thing that just about every BT list will include in some way or another.

[redmapa]

My personal favorite ideas are

 

-Seal of Sigismund on a 10 man TH/SS unit, makes a killer unit even deadlier and depending on the unit you nominate it might pay off to make the enemy play more coy with it or make the unit even more of a distraction carnifex then it already is, either it soaks a lot of attention or absolutely destroys whatever the target was, to me both are good outcomes.

 

-Fist of Balthus and a Master Crafted Power Fist on a Vanguard Veteran squad, 10pt and 1CP isnt that expensive and honestly Im always gonna use Master Crafted on something but I like the idea of two 3dmg Fists on a squad thats not even 150pts, for me thats a bargain.

 

-Bones of Mordred isnt that good but its also only 10pts, to make the most of it you have to put it on a model with lots of attacks so either a Vanguard Veteran Sergeant with lighting claws or chainswords OR an Outrider Sergeant who gets 7 attacks on the charge. 

 

-Crux Obsidian I never really thought much of it but I like what you guys are coming up with, put it in a Gravis unit like Inceptors or Aggressor and just soak up damage. I think thats cool, flamer aggressors with the blast flamer strat is also something I'd love to try one day.

[BitsHammer]

Holy light

hmmm. dont think its ever worth the points for +1morale and a very weak ability against psykers

Weak against psykers on it's own, but you can take the Skull and a relic from C:SM on a character and then you're projecting a 12" bubble of -3 to cast that perils on any doubles to cast, and failures to cast take d3 mortal wounds on a 4+ (and it can spike to a -2 at 18" with a -4 at 12" when you reveal the skull).

 

Not strong on it's own, but if you ever need to humble a psyker heavy army, it's part of a combo.

[Matis]

Icon of Heinman

This is best on a model with 2+/4++ save, like BGV, or Vanguard/Company Vets. For stormshield terminators -1AP doesn't matter anyway, -2AP helps only a tiny bit.

I'm going to use it on a company vet that bodyguards the main character blob and bring him back with apothecary if he dies. BGV do have 3 wounds but there's probably better stuff for them.

 

Crux Obsidian

I was thinking, for 15p its less than half of a BGV and almost a third of a hammer termy. If the bearer is saving D2 hits, it takes 3 fails to kill him, which would otherwise be 2W on another model. If he's saving D3 hits, it's a whole other model he saved. With apothecary to heal/res this guy it gets even more valuable. D1 dakka is the obvious counter, but I'd save those on different models on 2+ first. It's not perfect and could be countered (or fail on the first D6 damage shot) but worth trying IMO. Not on anything with less than 3W and very good save though.

 

Holy orb

Not an auto include for me, but mostly because I'm afraid most of the time I won't be able to play it properly. If the enemy charges me and the unit survives, I could use it to go first on my turn, or use it to help a different unit, but I bet most of the time it will be on a wrong model at the wrong time. I'm going to test it with something fast, like vanguards or bikes, to zoom close to a squad that needs help, or to throw some MWs on a char. BTW, am I reading it correctly, that this is not a shooting attack and could therefore bypass LookOutSir and hit units locked in combats?

 

Fist of Balthus

Like others said, on a vanguard vet sgt with winner of the feast, similar cost as thunderhammer, but with better AP and no -1 to hit.

 

Seal of Sigismund

20 is not cheap, so I'd slap it on a big unit that is also likely to run away from character auras, like deepstriking hammer termies or vanguards, otherwise it's kinda wasted. If I'm paying 430pts for a full hammer squad, +20 to give them full rerolls is not that horrible.

 

Bones of Mordred

Even with something like vanguard sergeant with double claws for 6 attacks on charge, that's 1-2 mortal wounds on average per combat. I could give him a hammer for a similar price. On anything else without rerolls to wound it's even worse. If it was "6 to hit deals mortal wounds", that would be a different story. Might be useful to make the outrider sgt a bit stronger, but I'd rather try the holy orb with him instead.

[Sigismund's Wrath]

So imo the relics break down along these lines.

Who is getting Champion of the feast?
What 3w model is going to hold -1 damage.
What anti infantry unit is going to hold Heinman?
Do I have a fast unit that doesnt mind getting close to keep orb as a flex play? 

Seal/Bones/Fist just feel like win-more options with the fist coming in a distance fourth compared to the top three. Currently Im looking at Heinman on a heavy intercessor brick and I want to test it with a regular terminator brick with the sword relic upgrade.  

[Mandragola]

In all fairness, for roughly half of these things to look useful in a lot of lists is kind of a win. The necron ones are almost all useless and the generic marine ones are either useless or too good. To have a set that are fine is a good result.