Was the Eisensteins warning pointless?

[Spiredfour]

 

 

Where is there any information of the traitors fleet assets during this action? The loyalist made unopposed approach to the planet and it wasn't until their " allies" appeared that fleet action commenced once the betrayal started. Further....so I am a Raven Guard captain of a battle barge and wondering why my allies are suddenly moving their fleet assets into attacking positions? Again, your fleet arrives unopposed and no one asked where is the VS or any of the other Gloriana class ships are? How do they even know Horus is on the planet? You have the greatest legion in stealth and intel gathering at your disposal, Corax should have held true to his nature and training, suspect everyone and send down his best to determine what they were up against and await the full might of 5 Legions as 3 versus 3 was not going to optimal on prepared positions....but that is another flaw in the story.

 

Finally, Horus, the Warmaster the ultimate General....so is the gap between him and the rest so bad no one thought to ask themselves how he was going to beat 15 other legions?

 

Corax and Vulkan arrived first, spending time conducting significant intel gathering missions and learning that the only way to dislodge and kill the Traitors was a ground assault. It was Ferrus that convinced his brothers that with their combined forces they could strike the initial blow and the reinforcing Legions would be on hand in a matter of hours to finish the Traitors off. Its a case of not looking the gift horse in the mouth with regards to the Traitor void assets and even if they did show up, the Loyalists had no reason to fear them as 4 more Legions were coming at their backs.

As for Horus, it was assumed that he had gone mad and from Ferrus's experience with Fulgrim, and the presence of Angron amongst Horus's ranks nobody had cause to believe otherwise. The Traitors assembled on Isstvan V had also taken a serious beating at the hands of the Loyalist on Isstvan III even excluding the fairly large number of Loyalists that were purged. Three insane generals and four battered Legions don't seem so much of a daunting task when you have 7 on your side.

Also for those confused as to how the Word Bearers could be in two places at once, the Legion was split in two after having a massive secret recruitment drive. Kor Phaeron and Erebus led the attack on Calth while Lorgar was on Isstvan. The Lorgar seen in "Know No Fear" was a Daemon masquerading as Lorgar.

As for a specific timeline of battles I believe it goes:

Isstvan III + Prospero > Isstvan V  > Phall + Calth + Alaxxes Nebula + the start of Thramas + the start of the Shadow Crusade

[Doghouse]

I think the other interesting thing to consider is that this was part of the original lore when the actual Heresy was less well defined in the original Space Marine rulebook. The one leading the Loyalists, however, was a World Eater by the name of Varren if I remember right who was replaced with Garro in later retellings in White Dwarf. He joked how the sum total of their Legion numbers came to the same number of men they had at their disposal in an attempt to lighten their moods.

 

It's one of the more interesting effects of the Heresy series in that the original material was split between the original Adeptus Titanicus, Space Marine and the Realms of Chaos. It wasn't till much later with the Index Astartes articles that the details began to be set in stone.

 

So I think that because it was a set piece of the original Heresy that it could well be that it may not make sense in the current context because of it's nature. It's more of a case of how do we fit this bit in which is why it may come across being a bit pointless but it was never a really massive part of the original story. It was still my favourite bit of the Heresy though.

[MarineRaider]

 

 

 

Where is there any information of the traitors fleet assets during this action? The loyalist made unopposed approach to the planet and it wasn't until their " allies" appeared that fleet action commenced once the betrayal started. Further....so I am a Raven Guard captain of a battle barge and wondering why my allies are suddenly moving their fleet assets into attacking positions? Again, your fleet arrives unopposed and no one asked where is the VS or any of the other Gloriana class ships are? How do they even know Horus is on the planet? You have the greatest legion in stealth and intel gathering at your disposal, Corax should have held true to his nature and training, suspect everyone and send down his best to determine what they were up against and await the full might of 5 Legions as 3 versus 3 was not going to optimal on prepared positions....but that is another flaw in the story.

 

Finally, Horus, the Warmaster the ultimate General....so is the gap between him and the rest so bad no one thought to ask themselves how he was going to beat 15 other legions?

 

Corax and Vulkan arrived first, spending time conducting significant intel gathering missions and learning that the only way to dislodge and kill the Traitors was a ground assault. It was Ferrus that convinced his brothers that with their combined forces they could strike the initial blow and the reinforcing Legions would be on hand in a matter of hours to finish the Traitors off. Its a case of not looking the gift horse in the mouth with regards to the Traitor void assets and even if they did show up, the Loyalists had no reason to fear them as 4 more Legions were coming at their backs.

As for Horus, it was assumed that he had gone mad and from Ferrus's experience with Fulgrim, and the presence of Angron amongst Horus's ranks nobody had cause to believe otherwise. The Traitors assembled on Isstvan V had also taken a serious beating at the hands of the Loyalist on Isstvan III even excluding the fairly large number of Loyalists that were purged. Three insane generals and four battered Legions don't seem so much of a daunting task when you have 7 on your side.

Also for those confused as to how the Word Bearers could be in two places at once, the Legion was split in two after having a massive secret recruitment drive. Kor Phaeron and Erebus led the attack on Calth while Lorgar was on Isstvan. The Lorgar seen in "Know No Fear" was a Daemon masquerading as Lorgar.

As for a specific timeline of battles I believe it goes:

Isstvan III + Prospero > Isstvan V  > Phall + Calth + Alaxxes Nebula + the start of Thramas + the start of the Shadow Crusade

 

 

Do you have source material for most of what you just wrote? I've note read any of that and I have all the books of the HH. You also really didn't address the issues raised, in fact you made it worse.

[MegaVolt87]

It's split between the main HH books series and the FW black books. I don't spot anything immediately wrong with Spire's post IMO.

[Valkyrion]

It's split between the main HH books series and the FW black books. I don't spot anything immediately wrong with Spire's post IMO.

 

Quite so, it's a fair and accurate appraisal of the Isstvan V situation. 

[LameBeard]

Ah, the old “it was a daemon pretending to be …” ruse! Very useful plot device for unravelling contradictions, and I think a reminder our space stories are always going to need a little suspension of disbelief.

 

Personally I admire the Black Library authors for finding semi-plausible reasons for a ground assault or boarding action at all (ie what we’d represent on the tabletop). The depicted power of the fleet is so great, and the speed of warp communication and travel so fraught, that pummelling an enemy from orbit or simply leaving them on the planet and ignoring them would often be more efficient.

[jaxom]

So the whole point of the Eisenstein escaping is to warn the Emperor and others of Horus treachery. This is pretty much told as a setback for Horus and the traitors. But it also doesn’t make that much sense at the same time.

 

Istvaan V was planned before the Eisenstein escaped, before Istvaan III had even occurred for that matter. But for V to work, the Imperium has to know of the treachery and dispatch the retribution fleet to Istvaan. How were they going to reveal themselves and get the loyalists to come to Istvaan V, without the Eisensteins warning? The massacre still played out as well as they could have hoped for by all accounts.

 

Regardless of how Istvaan V played out, the Eisenstein was important. If it hadn't gotten word to Terra, then we have a the traitor legions purged of all loyalists and free to operate while no one is the wiser. Prospero still gets razed (and Magnus separated from the Emperor), as Horus still  manipulates the orders to Russ. The 1st, 9th, and 13th legions still get sent to the back end of nowhere (remember, the 13th were gathering at legion strength to take on an "Ork threat" with the 17th legion, who would backstab them at one point or another). The major difference is that the traitors can get closer to Terra before revealing their true colors. Imagine a scenario where "loyal" Warmaster Horus is like, "Hey, I'm going to gather my legion, Mortarion's, Angron's, Curze's here at Beta-Garmon, while everyone else should go to Ultramar, except Rogal." And then bum rushes Terra for a four-on-one fight at the unreinforced defended-bu-not-on-Dorn-defense-steroids Imperial Palace.

[Gorgoff]

 

So the whole point of the Eisenstein escaping is to warn the Emperor and others of Horus treachery. This is pretty much told as a setback for Horus and the traitors. But it also doesn’t make that much sense at the same time.

 

Istvaan V was planned before the Eisenstein escaped, before Istvaan III had even occurred for that matter. But for V to work, the Imperium has to know of the treachery and dispatch the retribution fleet to Istvaan. How were they going to reveal themselves and get the loyalists to come to Istvaan V, without the Eisensteins warning? The massacre still played out as well as they could have hoped for by all accounts.

 

Regardless of how Istvaan V played out, the Eisenstein was important. If it hadn't gotten word to Terra, then we have a the traitor legions purged of all loyalists and free to operate while no one is the wiser. Prospero still gets razed (and Magnus separated from the Emperor), as Horus still  manipulates the orders to Russ. The 1st, 9th, and 13th legions still get sent to the back end of nowhere (remember, the 13th were gathering at legion strength to take on an "Ork threat" with the 17th legion, who would backstab them at one point or another). The major difference is that the traitors can get closer to Terra before revealing their true colors. Imagine a scenario where "loyal" Warmaster Horus is like, "Hey, I'm going to gather my legion, Mortarion's, Angron's, Curze's here at Beta-Garmon, while everyone else should go to Ultramar, except Rogal." And then bum rushes Terra for a four-on-one fight at the unreinforced defended-bu-not-on-Dorn-defense-steroids Imperial Palace.

 

That was Horus plan all along, which got canceled by the Eisenstein.

Question answered, well done.

[nagashnee]

 

 

So the whole point of the Eisenstein escaping is to warn the Emperor and others of Horus treachery. This is pretty much told as a setback for Horus and the traitors. But it also doesn’t make that much sense at the same time.

 

Istvaan V was planned before the Eisenstein escaped, before Istvaan III had even occurred for that matter. But for V to work, the Imperium has to know of the treachery and dispatch the retribution fleet to Istvaan. How were they going to reveal themselves and get the loyalists to come to Istvaan V, without the Eisensteins warning? The massacre still played out as well as they could have hoped for by all accounts.

 

Regardless of how Istvaan V played out, the Eisenstein was important. If it hadn't gotten word to Terra, then we have a the traitor legions purged of all loyalists and free to operate while no one is the wiser. Prospero still gets razed (and Magnus separated from the Emperor), as Horus still  manipulates the orders to Russ. The 1st, 9th, and 13th legions still get sent to the back end of nowhere (remember, the 13th were gathering at legion strength to take on an "Ork threat" with the 17th legion, who would backstab them at one point or another). The major difference is that the traitors can get closer to Terra before revealing their true colors. Imagine a scenario where "loyal" Warmaster Horus is like, "Hey, I'm going to gather my legion, Mortarion's, Angron's, Curze's here at Beta-Garmon, while everyone else should go to Ultramar, except Rogal." And then bum rushes Terra for a four-on-one fight at the unreinforced defended-bu-not-on-Dorn-defense-steroids Imperial Palace.

 

That was Horus plan all along, which got canceled by the Eisenstein.

Question answered, well done.

 

TBH that is a very very bad plan.

 

No molech powers, no real demonic aid or understanding, Dorn already on high alert due to mars schism, also Horus had no way of knowing what Magnus would do to the webway, so whats his plan in this case with an active Emperor and full strength talon force?

 

IIRC Dorn started fortifying the sol system post Ullanor, went he returned to Terra with the Emperor, even with some level of surprise I cant see Horus and his 4 legions actually being able to rush Sol, never mind grind down the palace, fists, custodes and ignatum.  

 

A direct rush would i believe get bogged down in the Sol System with the best case being open warfare on terra and hoping your any number of loyal fleets done start trickling in rather sharpish.   

 

But again the ultimate reason this plan fails to stand is that while Horus could get Magnus off the board the same way, he has NO way of knowing he would wreck the webway project, and no way of dealing with an active Emperor.  He NEEDS to go to molech, he NEEDS to gather non marine forces in huge numbers for invasion of the Sol System, he NEEDS to garrison his rear and supply lines.

 

To me the rush terra route never made sense. Not with 4 legions, 4 on 1 ratio is the bear min you need if attacking with equal quality troops in a siege anyhow.

Edited December 9, 2021 by nagashnee

[jaxom]

In my opinion, a lot of the errors with the plan come down to the change in timing and nature of Chaos's investment from the original Horus Heresy lore blips to the new Horus Heresy Black Library books.