Please help me understand Primaris in our Codex

[Berzul]

Hello everyone.

 

After many years playing Firstborn Marines, I have decided that my collection is pretty much "done" for now. I plan on now moving on to start collecting a Primaris army.

 

Thing is... I have no clue how Primaris Marines really work in our Codex. I am here to politely ask for some pointers on how a Dark Angels player should go about forming a Primaris-only army/collection.

 

From what I can gather just by reading statlines from the various datasheets, it seems that:

 

1. Bladeguard Veterans, specially with an Apothecary and an Ancient with the Pennant of Remembrance, work kind of the same way as a squad of Deathwing Knights. They hit more times, at less strength, but have much equivalent survivability. You might need to drive them around in an Impulsor, though, but as a forward infantry unit to go for a key spot on the map and just hold it down, walking around is not that bad of an alternative.
2. Aggressors seem to be a good unit for us. With Boltstorm Gauntlets, in a big group, to advance forward with their assault weapons. This, since they can advance with no real problem, and if they get into close combat, they can fire their gauntlets into their enemies for the two rounds we get of Tactical Doctrine.
3. Although Phobos Pattern marines are not my cup of tea at all, it seems like Eliminators are a really good unit to have. After all, they are the we way have of sniping out key supporting characters, with weapons that far surpass those of Sniper Scouts, and in a Heavy Support Slot, which is usually much more available than an Elite one for the Scouts. I'm thinking that a good gunline under Azrael with these guys nearby, can make them very valuable.
4. And, speaking of gunlines, it seems Hellblasters are a Dark Angel staple, aren't they? Seems like we favor a static gunline of plasma, so the heavier weapons would be the ones to go for, right? WotDA making these guns D4 seems like a no-brainer.
5. At the same time, Inceptors with plasma weaponry are also an autotake for most armies, I have seen. 

At the same time, it seems to me like:

 

1. Heavy Intercessors are too much buck for their bang. Seems like regular Intercessors are enough to hold down objectives and provide anti-infantry fire, right?
2. Assault Intercessors are not really all that good for us due to lack of proper support for them. These guys seem to shine best in armies like Blood Angels and Black Templar.
3. Reivers are pointless (going by the general feel of every discussion that mentions them)
4. Supressors are good in theory, but don't see much play.
5. Turrets are cool looking, but also bad in practice.

 

Please, I would be thankful for any information you guys can give me on what are good units and combinations of units for a Primaris Dark Angel force.

 

 

[Skywrath]

Going down your points, and I'm addressing this from a purely competitive standpoint.

 

1. Yes BVG are a good choice, however the Knights inch it out for an effective 1+ save over an effective 2+ for the BVG. Secondly with the Ork meta shaping up nicely, you are in dire need of S8 weapons, so that's why I will choose either the Knights with their maces, or a unit of DWT with chainfists to deal with the issue. Otherwise you BGV would be wounding on 5's (assuming not in assault doctrine) at 1 damage a pop. The other alternative is to footslog them up the board as a screen to guard a gunline unit behind such as a Volkite Contemptor. They aren't a bad choice for sure, but Knights have their place, and even then, they are having hot competition with a Command Squad for bodyguard purposes and DWT squads and the reasons outlined above. 

 

2. Aggressors are good - mostly for the reasons outlined above. Horde style armies through Admech, Drukhari and Orks are very prominent so running them around with Azrael is definitely something you could do. Usually I go with the route of either a talonmaster or a dark talon, but in a pinch those can be useful for sure. Plus their ability to hit on 4's in combat while shooting weapons (assuming they stood still) could be a prime candidate for the Line Unbreakable strategem. They do compete with terminators though, but I'm yet to definitively say they are worse or better than them.

 

3. Eliminators - interesting choice, but not worth it. For the same points, you'd be better taking a vindicare, as he gives you 1CP for killing a character. Even then, the current meta choices seem to be shifting more from characters and into infantry, so you proably won't find much use there. If your meta is mostly admech or drukhari still, by all means. 

 

4. I personally go with Inceptors over Hellblasters for T5, fly, and Gravis armor. Tried hellblasters - they are too slow, need line of sight, and you'd be spending 2CP per squad of 10 for a roughly comparable amount of shots through plasceptors (in a group of 5). That and you'd be spending 1CP over 2 to give them transhuman. Some argue Inceptors are overcosted, and truthfully they are, but I still prefer them over hellblasters. Your mileage might vary, especially if you factor in the assault hellblaster variant. Also your apothecary would get most use out of his selfless healer trait if you go plasceptors over 2W hellblasters.

 

5. Heavy Intercesors - skip. Not worth it, when you have Aggressors. Also presumably in a DA list you'd be having cases of Rites of War, so yeah..

 

6. Assault Intercessors - also skip.

 

7. Hmm, reivers are mostly pointless yes, however some tournament lists did run them to deny obsec, and I did have a fluffy FIrewing list that used them though leadership shenanigans. Problem with that theory is that the top factions have way to ignore morale on top of that 2CP strat that auto-passes, so yeah..don't run them.

 

8. Suppressors are also interesting, but I think they are outshone by plasceptors mainly for the reason their weapons have blast. Also they are T4 somehow, over the inceptors T5. Go figure, as suppressors are clearly wearing gravis armor.

 

9. Turrets - do not buy. 

Edited October 25, 2021 by Skywrath

[Berzul]

Thank you, brother.

 

So, let's see...

 

With regards to HELLBLASTERS and INCEPTORS, I currently use a very static formation of Plasma Cannon Devastators with Azrael and a Lieutenant with Rites of War. I figured that 10 Hellblasters with the heavy weapons would fit the same role, pretty well. If it would be advisable to go with Inceptors or Hellblasters, instead of using both, then I think that yeah. I'd go with Inceptors and use Azrael to go for the mid-field with Aggressors, then.

 

With regards to AGGRESSORS, it seems to me that they should be a very good unit for a DA army. One or two squads of 5, at 225 points a piece, with Azrael to keep the firing in Tactical Doctrine for 3 turns, plus a Lieutenant with Rites of War, and full rerrolls per round, yeah. They could break enemy lines very nicely. I also believe that Terminators are better, but I am going for a Primaris only force (sans Azrael), so I'd go with these guys over some Terminators.

 

So, ELIMINATORS are not worth it? They are 25 points cheaper than a Vindicare, and more lore-friendly in an Astartes list than a member of the Officio Assassinorum. But, I guess I'll take your word for it.

 

I also will be skipping ASSAULT INTERCESSORS, REIVERS, TURRETS, and HEAVY INTERCESSORS. I think I'll go with three squads of Intercessors with the Assault weapons, for my troop choices.

 

SUPPRESSORS are a weird unit for me. As you mention, they are a bit squishier than other units, and although they seem nice to work as an overwatch preventing unit, I don't know if  that alone merits the 100 points it costs to bring them.

[phandaal]

Eliminators make a great Distraction Carnifex for your opponent. They are a cheap unit (for Space Marines) and hard to shift out of cover. If your opponent commits shooting to get rid of your Eliminators, that is firepower not being aimed at your other units. If your opponent ignores them it is free 2+ to hit damage. Not a bad deal.

[MegaVolt87]

Y'all sleeping on heavy intercessors with hellstorm bolt rifles marching up with apoth/ transhuman for mid board objectives. Heavy intercessors aren't for the back line. 

[Berzul]

Well, if you think about it,

 

5 aggressors can advance 5"+D6" and shoot with their two boltstorm gauntlets, they have 15W at T5 with a 3+ save, and can deal out 30 S4 AP0 D1 shots at 18" at -1 to shoot for advancing.

 

This costs 225 points.

 

10 Heavy Intercessors with Hellstorm Bolters can move the same, while they bring double the wounds (30W) at the same durability (T5 with a 3+ save), and can deal the same number of shots (30), but at S5 AP0 D1 from 30" inches away.

 

This costs 280 points.

 

They also have objective secured and fill a troop slot.

 

... I think the Primaris range has an issue with how their units are designed.

 

Reading it down, I honestlt see little purpose now in using Aggressors over Heavy Intercessors.

 

One block of 10 with Azrael and a Primaris Apothecary sounds like an amazing castle around which to build a list.

[Sarvis]

Also they are T4 somehow, over the inceptors T5. Go figure, as suppressors are clearly wearing gravis armor.

Thought I should note; suppressors are actually wearing omnis armor, a cross between Phobos and gravis, which I’d guess is the reason for the lower save, as omnis is significantly less bulky.

[Skywrath]

Y'all sleeping on heavy intercessors with hellstorm bolt rifles marching up with apoth/ transhuman for mid board objectives. Heavy intercessors aren't for the back line. 

 

We aren't missing out on on anything - in a competitive DA army, you'd be taking infiltrators are your troop choice, and even then one squad, while one squad would be a Deathwing Terminator Squad that scores Stubborn Defiance. Plus for that points there are better options - such as the aforementioned Deathwing Terminators.

 

Well, if you think about it,

 

5 aggressors can advance 5"+D6" and shoot with their two boltstorm gauntlets, they have 15W at T5 with a 3+ save, and can deal out 30 S4 AP0 D1 shots at 18" at -1 to shoot for advancing.

 

This costs 225 points.

 

10 Heavy Intercessors with Hellstorm Bolters can move the same, while they bring double the wounds (30W) at the same durability (T5 with a 3+ save), and can deal the same number of shots (30), but at S5 AP0 D1 from 30" inches away.

 

This costs 280 points.

 

They also have objective secured and fill a troop slot.

 

... I think the Primaris range has an issue with how their units are designed.

 

Reading it down, I honestlt see little purpose now in using Aggressors over Heavy Intercessors.

 

One block of 10 with Azrael and a Primaris Apothecary sounds like an amazing castle around which to build a list.

 

Yet when the heavy intercessors march up the mid-board, and when they get counter-punched then they fall over like wet sticks. At least the Aggressors will have a chance to swing back at S8, -4AP, 2 damage weapons, re-rolling 1's at an attacks profile similar the BGV. Then there are defensives such as Transhuman which you'd be spending 1CP less in a squad of 5 aggressors, instead of 2CP in a squad of 10 intercessors. Oh and they are also 10pts cheaper, as well as being a completely different type of unit.

 

As for the amount of shots, are you forgetting that the fragstorm grenade launchers have the blast keyword, meaning 3 shots minimum x 5 (in a squad) meaning 15 shots? On top of the 30 shots you'd be getting baseline due to them having 6 shots each between the two boltstorm gauntlets? Secondly you'd be running a Ravenwing Apothecary for the mobility, the primaris one is lackluster due to the fact he doesn't have an invuln save. Aggressors > Heavy Intercessors, easily.

 

 

 

Also they are T4 somehow, over the inceptors T5. Go figure, as suppressors are clearly wearing gravis armor.

Thought I should note; suppressors are actually wearing omnis armor, a cross between Phobos and gravis, which I’d guess is the reason for the lower save, as omnis is significantly less bulky.

 

 

Fair point, I stand corrected.

[Cpt. Bannockburn]

You seem to not have mentioned the infiltrating troop slots, both of which (Infiltrators & Incursors) are pretty good for area denial and / or forward objective holding. 

 

Also give some thoughts to Eradicators, which are very competitively priced with their ability to double shoot if not advancing, and surprisingly tough to kill (due to Gravis armor). It's a trading unit, for sure, but at 145 points you can trade up often enough.

[Skywrath]

You seem to not have mentioned the infiltrating troop slots, both of which (Infiltrators & Incursors) are pretty good for area denial and / or forward objective holding. 

 

Also give some thoughts to Eradicators, which are very competitively priced with their ability to double shoot if not advancing, and surprisingly tough to kill (due to Gravis armor). It's a trading unit, for sure, but at 145 points you can trade up often enough.

 

Personally as DA you'd get more use with plasceptors or hellblasters IMO than eradicators. 

Edited October 26, 2021 by Skywrath

[Cpt. Bannockburn]

I don't use eradicators because I don't like Gravis armor aesthetics, and you're right that you could substitute plasma inceptors (which I do, because I wanted to have at least one Gravis unit for completeness' sake), but that strategy is generally more CP intensive. It's (as usual), a question with many variables - such as overall army composition, theme, mission - not a "this is bad, this is good" thing.

Hellblasters, on the other hand, are too expensive for what they do to be a good unit to just fire and forget, so I do not agree with that assessment. They generally need support to really shine.

[Berzul]

I don't really plan on taking erradicators. I just don't like the unit, to be honest.

 

As for the Ravenwing Apothecary, I would not be taking one, simply because this would be a primaris-only army I would be building. At least, to start.

 

I get the point on aggressors vs heavy intercessors, though. I do not find that the unit that walks up mid board will always end up in melee, though, and having Objective Secured built into the unit is quite desireable. But I get the advantages of the unit, though.

[phandaal]

 

Hellblasters, on the other hand, are too expensive for what they do to be a good unit to just fire and forget, so I do not agree with that assessment. They generally need support to really shine.

 

Hellblasters with assault plasma incinerators for the guaranteed 3 shots per model, hanging with Azrael for a nice 4+ invuln and rerolls. Much pew.

 

Inceptors have the superior mobility hands down, but they are also getting pooped on by your opponent as soon as they venture away from Azrael and their shots are much swingier against sub-6 model units.

[MegaVolt87]

Its not a guarantee the heavy intercessors will be wiped in one charge/ assault phase with correct support. Very little locks you in combat these days. Fall back, blaze away + counter charge at the assault unit with your own stuff when they are standing there in the open now. Also no guarantee the assault unit is at peak and arrives in combat with the HI unmolested. 

[Berzul]

Aggressors do feel like a better choice if they are going to get hit hard by a melee unit. Heavy Intercessors have more range and more firepower though. I guess it comes down to how far into the mid-board you plan on taking the unit. The way I see it, Aggressors would be a good unit to go for the enemy deployment zone across the battlefield, but Heavy Intercessors are a better unit if you plan to be moving for the purposes of keeping distance and positioning for LoS, more than in going for a melee contact with the enemy

[Malakithe]

Or...hear me out, you take a Redemptor with Macro Plasma. 10pts more then a 5 man Hellblaster, 5pts less then 3 plasceptors. It has the strongest plasma weapon and can fight in melee too. Have a Captain with Brilliant Strategist hang with him to keep him in Dev Doctrine.

 

There is of course the whole vehicle bracket thing but thats whatever. 

 

Then again you could way off course and try out a Vengeance. Its only 120pts stock. Fastest option, Str8/9 plasma, Jink, and no bracket. Its not primaris but with some kit bashing it could be.