Land Speeders the new black?

[Plague _Lord]

Been thinking about BT as of late and I have come to the conclusion that land speeders might be a hidden gem! Of course in a build that takes the 5++ vow 100% of games.

 

Pros:

- 210 pts for 18 T6 3+ 5++ wounds isn't that easy to shift

- Really fast - 18'' move is amazing

- FLY keyword is really handy, allowing them to jump terrain and engage flyers in combat (thus stopping them from shooting)

- easy way of getting into melta range

- skilled rider give them raider levels of toughness

- can shoot after falling back if they survive melee

 

Cons:

- No core

- No melee

- 3+ BS that is virtually unbuffable

 

I see 2 way of running them:

1. The distraction carnifex - a 3 speeder unit that wan't to get up close into melta range from the getgo and pop a tank. It's also a hard unit to shift in melee due to high T and the 5++ so I think it can acutally bog down a whole flank with it's rather large footprint.

 

2. A few singular units just for the annoyance factor of having a high speed multimelta get anywhere it wants + being able to stop a dakkajet with shooting by charging it.

 

Thoughts?

[Charlo]

I know Medjugorje has some success with them recently, they're a very tactically flexible unit and the 5++ makes them solid (just ask the Dark Angels!).

 

Typhoons feel alright, having a solid amount of anti-tank (four S8 shots), but they get a bit more expensive.

 

If you run a Whirlwind then the basic Landspeeder has an additional little boon too.

 

I don't see BS3+ that's hard to buff as bad, personally. They have other factors that make up for it and I think more people need to try out independent units!

[Marshal Reinhard]

How do the new fangled Primaris speeders measure up to the classics? Overpriced or capable?

[Amon777]

How do the new fangled Primaris speeders measure up to the classics? Overpriced or capable?

Overpriced because of the degrading stat but only 10 wounds. Their weapon loadouts are fine in principal. 

[Marshal Laeroth]

Land Speeder Storms. 55 points. Profit.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I’d take Primaris speeders.

[Plague _Lord]

The primaris speeders are way overpriced.

The melta version is like 165? And gives you slightly more AT shots than two firstborn ones while having less wounds and a degrading profile.

[Prot]

Been thinking about BT as of late and I have come to the conclusion that land speeders might be a hidden gem! Of course in a build that takes the 5++ vow 100% of games.

 

 

 

Thoughts?

 

So just a few things I'll toss out there for you guys to consider:

- I prefer the lacannon speeder. It's the only one that's BS 2. I also prefer this one because most of the army moves forward. You will need a hot swappable unit for rear guard objectives. The 36" does help. And yes, being degradable sucks (really shouldn't be) and the BS 3 becomes paramount when damaged, especially if shooting through dense.

 

- The 5++ I have found is good, but it's a crap shoot. You'll have that one turn where you bounce 3 devastating Lascanon wounds or Melta wounds. Then you have those games where it's DOA. But when it lasts, it is a very helpful with BT's imho.

 

 

 

 

How do the new fangled Primaris speeders measure up to the classics? Overpriced or capable?

Overpriced because of the degrading stat but only 10 wounds. Their weapon loadouts are fine in principal. 

 

 

- Agreed. The additional negatives I would add are its size. the height especially can put it in bad spots, and the foot print is too large at times. The old speeders take up far less room, and since they are shorter, they can actually hide behind the "GW Crates" stacked 2 high. The new speeders cannot. This becomes a factor for Obscurity sometimes as well.

 

Land Speeder Storms. 55 points. Profit.

 

- I hate to say it but yes. This is turning out to be true. Also... the scout speeder is valuable (for other reasons). Consider it for speed/scoring, and a very cheap platform (with a 5++) to boot.

 

I have used the Speeder (two variants) in all of my BT games (3 as I write this), and in almost every White Scars army list I've played for the last year.

 

Yes, it gets better mileage with the BT 5++ vow, however, this very argument is valid for one of the most underused 'gems' I think in the codex: Vanilla Dreads. Just fantastic value, and a small platform.

[Marshal Mittens]

Supressors are also pretty good imo and very cheap.

[Karhedron]

To be a fair a lot of stuff in the Marine codex becomes a lot better with a 5++.

 

But on the subject of Speeders, I agree that the Firstborn versions are superior to the Primaris ones in general. This is a shame as the Primaris ones look cooler but the durability just does not do them any favours.

[Tokugawa]

Attack bike with MM is 60pts. Classic speeder with MM is 70pts. Of course they could see some use. 10pts for more wounds and higher T is a trade I'm glad to do.

 

Yes, you can't buff them well, but, do you buff attack bike well? We don't have tools like DA biker apothecary, and attack bikes will go out of buff range of heroes.

[Palmu]

Core does mean the ability to grab Obsec among other useful things, mind. Speeders lack THAT. 

 

Though, I'm just interested about finding some use for the six speeders I've got piled up somewhere that I got as extra in trades over the years. 

[Prot]

Core does mean the ability to grab Obsec among other useful things, mind. Speeders lack THAT. 

 

Though, I'm just interested about finding some use for the six speeders I've got piled up somewhere that I got as extra in trades over the years. 

Exactly. That’s why I try to squeeze the Primaris speeders in a few games. I think most of the classic bikes amd vehicles are just flat out better. 

[Medjugorje]

Land Speeder have the Vehicle keyword!!! You can hit on 2s with a Techmarine. !!!

 

 

6 shots with 2+ in "melter" range isnt that bad 

[tvih]

I do plan to run my beloved ol' Land Speeders in the BT lists to some extent. Quite possibly a HB+AC/HB+MM config, because the other variants do get rather pricey for their durability. In the past I'm not even sure if I ever even ran anything but Typhoons, usually with MM, but the times they are a-changin', I guess :P And of course there's the Storm, which I've have "WIP" in assembly for what, 7-8 years now? It's cheaper and with an additional wound, but the firepower isn't much and not planning on using any scouts to transport with it.

[Prot]

Yea I have an old storm as well and honestly it’s a cheap unit that can grab stuff. And with BT it is looking like speed is an issue. If you like to take Engage it is helpful as well. I’ve been taking outriders and have had mediocre success. 

[tvih]

I do plan on an Outrider squad and probably jump VV in most lists for the speed, but more speed more better, as they say! 

 

If I ever get the other two Land Speeders painted for CF - I already have two BT ones - that'd be four I could put out there, and five if I also do the Storm. It'd be funny to put that many on the table at once given how rare it is to see even one these days.

[Karhedron]

Yea I have an old storm as well and honestly it’s a cheap unit that can grab stuff. And with BT it is looking like speed is an issue. If you like to take Engage it is helpful as well.

One of the great features of the Storm is that it opens up the "Shock and Awe" stratagem. Turning off enemy Overwatch and hitting them with a -1 to-Hit debuff (in both shooting and melee) can be great if your opponent has any particularly gnarly units.

[Prot]

Very true… and I have send to use that with my scars but have completely forgot with the Templars!
 

I will say though this army is har pressed for CP. it’s good to have up your sleeve but their strats are vital and I burn a bunch pregame. 
 

I mean you pretty much blow 2 per turn just on Bombastic delivery for starters. 

[Othniel's Blade]

I just ran up a list with 6 Speeders. I'm looking forward to putting them to the test.

 

https://pastebin.com/m7r5w5pf

[Medjugorje]

3x2 normal Land Speeders (they are way cheaper and 2" more movement) with MM and a Techmarine which gives them +2 to hit.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Techmarine is going to have his work cut out keeping up with them.

[Medjugorje]

no... you can play thim like we played our VV bombs. Hide all units behind a obscuring terrain and give them +1 to hit in the command phase, fly 18" and then shoot 4 shots BS 2+ in short range melta into the opponent. 

 

3x2 land speeders... means 3 rounds. 

[GMrx96]

no... you can play thim like we played our VV bombs. Hide all units behind a obscuring terrain and give them +1 to hit in the command phase, fly 18" and then shoot 4 shots BS 2+ in short range melta into the opponent. 

 

3x2 land speeders... means 3 rounds. 

 

I'm sorry sir but I have to point out that the techmarine +1 BS is just for 1 model. Anyway it can be important for primaris speeders in a list that runs the techmarine also for dreadnought purpouse.

 

 

I would like to append my personal review of speeders.

 

The way I usually evaluate different units in the game is according to 4 main variables that should be normalized over the cost of the unit: Positioning (not just movement), Offensive power, Resistance and Tricks.

Land speeders are in my opinion thought as a way of delivering the exact weapon to the exact point, in order to tackle the current issue, but then must move somewhere  else. They are not built to last, thus if you want to get back their points and make at least a non-losing investment you need to set them up in a clever way. Also in this optic it is good to point out that you want your speeder set in a skew way: anti-vehicle or anti-infantry.

 

Positioning: Most important trait of the model, the 2 winners are the normal speeder and the storm speeder, with their 18” of movement with respect to other models’ 16”. On top of that the storm speeder has outflank to further enabling engage on all fronts.

“Fly” keyword and fast movement enable us to exploit terrain to the max, especially with small footprint speeders.

 

Offensive power: for the firstborn codex we have tornadoes and typhoons variants that have the same profile of the normal speeder with the exception of -2” movement and a assault cannon/missile launcher. Due to the incorrect pricing of the chassis (again it’s the same of the normal speeder) you are paying 20 and 50 points for the respective weapon and -2”… you can play them but are they worthy?

For the primaris side we have 3 more heavily loaded options (Hailstrike, Thunderstrike and Hammerstrike) that can better do their focused job with the respectives 16+2D6 light shots / 3 simil-lascannon+2d3 icarus shots / 3 melta+ 2lasfusil+2krack shots. The Hailstrike and the Hammerstrike shine as reasonable loadout for surgical fast military action (even with the degrading profile), but are still ~15/20 points higher than reasonable IMO. Right now I prefer inceptors to this variants.

 

Resistance: it’s not very high but can be implemented with Uphold. Unfortunately you can’t benefit from Grimaldus or Divine Protection.

A huge difference lies in 7 WOUNDS land speeder storm: no casual darklance one-shotting this model and 3 u.w. (4.5 hits) from a D3 weapon against 2 u.w. (3 hits) for normal speeder. Same thing for D2 weapons (6 hits vs 4.5).

The gap from 7 to 10 wounds for the primaris variants is less significant with respect to the point cost and also the latter degrade.

 

Tricks:

• shock and awe (land speeder storm): useful to prevent overwatch and reduce enemy c.c. effectiveness
• skilled riders: -1 to be hit if advance, not what you want to do
• hit-an-run-warfare: can fall back and shoot, useful to make your opponent regret not finishing off your units. This can requires them to overcommit.

 

 

FW: For the firstborn FW we have tempest and javelin variants that are a little bit different. Due to martial legacy + cost the javelin is not a feasible option. Tempest is instead an interesting variant: for 115 points (5 more than tornadoes) it has both an assault cannon and a missile launcher, +1 ap on the missile and BIG 7 wounds. Still not sure it is worthy but it’s definitely more appealing.

 

 

Conclusion: Due to the limited amount of tricks  and lack of “ core” the speeders seem more a precision tool than a swiss knife. They then require to be built accordingly.

Considering the points above the best suited IMO are:

• 3 size unit of normal speeder with MM for killing vehicles
• Several land speeder storm for backfield objective holding (cheaper than troops… we may even cut troops from the lists…) or engaging.

There are other reasonable uses and combinations we can go for according to the list, but you then have to compete with VV, inceptors, bikes …

Edited November 4, 2021 by GMrx96

[tvih]

Gotta say, I very much wish it was still possible to deep strike them like you could back in the day.