what do non-Black Templar players think about the new BT Sup

[Medjugorje]

Hello. 

 

As the topic says, I want to know what are your opinions about the new supp. I was smashed down because I really think that GW missed a chance. Imho the codex is very thematic but the rules interaction is really bad. Everything in this codex speak about close combat but there are no real buffs except you are close to chaplains. 

 

In general Space Marines are so locked to characters but BT pump that up. SW for example dont need buffs with exploding 6s and +1 to hit - but honestly, they will never arrive Close combat so SW players are forced to field an shooty army to force the opponent to come close. 

[TheNewman]

I tend to play shooty, mobility-focused lists under White Scars. I also very frequently take a Libby for Psychic Fortress. BTs just randomly getting an army-wide 5++ and mini-Transhuman over the whole army all game made me foam at the mouth just a bit at first.

 

That vow alone is really good, and being able to pick a different effect if it won't matter is silly-good. Some of their strats look very strong. What that book doesn't do is convince me that it would work any better for how I tend to play the game.

[Medjugorje]

did you try to build a list?

[Brother Captain Vakarian]

It’s so good and so thematic that I almost re-wrote my headcannon for my own Imperial Fists successor chapter to be “counts-as” Templars.

 

I only decided not to for hobby reasons—wanting to keep some integrity to the project I’ve started out with.

 

If I weren’t playing narrative (Crusade) only, I would 100% be running my Marines as BT right now, but I just don’t enjoy competitive 40K. The game is genuinely better in narrative when you have like-minded people in your gaming group.

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

Hello. 

 

As the topic says, I want to know what are your opinions about the new supp. I was smashed down because I really think that GW missed a chance. Imho the codex is very thematic but the rules interaction is really bad. Everything in this codex speak about close combat but there are no real buffs except you are close to chaplains. 

 

In general Space Marines are so locked to characters but BT pump that up. SW for example dont need buffs with exploding 6s and +1 to hit - but honestly, they will never arrive Close combat so SW players are forced to field an shooty army to force the opponent to come close. 

 

As a SW player I'm a bit jealous that your vow is active the entire game waiting for the assault doctrine to get exploding sixes is kinda rough, and to top it off I think your vows are better than most of our super doctrines.

 

That said as SW player I'm able to get into combat. The 9th edition missions have done a great job of forcing players to actually move forward. You do need more shooting because you have to hold onto the objectives, but I don't have shooting elements to force my opponent closer.

[CrystalSeer]

I second this. I'm playing templar and wolves atm. My wolves have a lot of cc which gets used in every game. It's true you don't have good transports, but you have outflank, strategic reserves, and the board is just smaller now.

 

The game used to require transports to get anywhere, but honestly that's not the case anymore. The target is the mid-board, not your opponents deployment zone. Knocking out targets in the back table is the role of fire support.

 

Templar are in a similar place. They are not a speed across the board army. That's blood angels, ravenwing, and scars. What BT do very well is own the mid-board and counter-assault enemy strong points.

 

Big squads with extra weapons, good overwatch, extra resilience, and easy buffs thanks to chaplains (2x the litanies) and relics.

 

Then our characters and melee beat sticks come in to handle the enemy problem children.

[Medjugorje]

 

Hello. 

 

As the topic says, I want to know what are your opinions about the new supp. I was smashed down because I really think that GW missed a chance. Imho the codex is very thematic but the rules interaction is really bad. Everything in this codex speak about close combat but there are no real buffs except you are close to chaplains. 

 

In general Space Marines are so locked to characters but BT pump that up. SW for example dont need buffs with exploding 6s and +1 to hit - but honestly, they will never arrive Close combat so SW players are forced to field an shooty army to force the opponent to come close. 

 

As a SW player I'm a bit jealous that your vow is active the entire game waiting for the assault doctrine to get exploding sixes is kinda rough, and to top it off I think your vows are better than most of our super doctrines.

 

That said as SW player I'm able to get into combat. The 9th edition missions have done a great job of forcing players to actually move forward. You do need more shooting because you have to hold onto the objectives, but I don't have shooting elements to force my opponent closer.

 

ist so crazy to hear that.

 

I am sure that your superdoctrine is as twice as good as 3 of our vows together.. Except uphold the Honor (5++) i would give you any of our vows to get exploding6s. And in Addition your most important unit can take the strat for being in that doctrine (while BT Players dont have that much support by this Stratagem because there is no superdoctrine)

At the Moment i think SW and BT are very close in playstyle.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

That’s because of invulnerable saves but really they are quite divergent. And dogs has fleas… :D

[Malakithe]

The Vows systems is what the Combat Doctrines should have been. Its kinda silly to have to wait a certain amount of turns to use your chapters specialty. 

 

"Oh wait guys we cant be good at what we do until the third turn so just chill"

[Closet Skeleton]

 

ist so crazy to hear that.

 

I am sure that your superdoctrine is as twice as good as 3 of our vows together.. Except uphold the Honor (5++) i would give you any of our vows to get exploding6s. And in Addition your most important unit can take the strat for being in that doctrine (while BT Players dont have that much support by this Stratagem because there is no superdoctrine)

Exploding 6s is good but its just what any successor can get with Whirlwind of Rage with the option of the way better White Scars super doctrine in addition.

 

Accept any Challenge and other things that give +1 flat attack are just better than exploding 6s.

 

Its not the quality of the BT buffs compared to other chapters that matter, its the force multiplier on those buffs being on bigger squads than other chapters can run.

[Karhedron]

Giving out a 5++ to everything just for turning up seems pretty strong to me. Maybe not the bets choice against every opponent but certainly a very solid option.

[Medjugorje]

 

 

ist so crazy to hear that.

 

I am sure that your superdoctrine is as twice as good as 3 of our vows together.. Except uphold the Honor (5++) i would give you any of our vows to get exploding6s. And in Addition your most important unit can take the strat for being in that doctrine (while BT Players dont have that much support by this Stratagem because there is no superdoctrine)

Exploding 6s is good but its just what any successor can get with Whirlwind of Rage with the option of the way better White Scars super doctrine in addition.

 

Accept any Challenge and other things that give +1 flat attack are just better than exploding 6s.

 

Its not the quality of the BT buffs compared to other chapters that matter, its the force multiplier on those buffs being on bigger squads than other chapters can run.

 

no. Because this attack does not stack with shock assault. And in this killy environment you will never see a secound round where an additional attack would make any difference. If the opponent can fall back... he will do (or try it) and if he is certain that he will win this fight anyway then this attack has absolutely no influence.

 

ANd dont forget if you have already an ability for expl.6s then you can choose another one (in addition).

[Helias_Tancred]

It’s so good and so thematic that I almost re-wrote my headcannon for my own Imperial Fists successor chapter to be “counts-as” Templars.

 

I only decided not to for hobby reasons—wanting to keep some integrity to the project I’ve started out with.

 

If I weren’t playing narrative (Crusade) only, I would 100% be running my Marines as BT right now, but I just don’t enjoy competitive 40K. The game is genuinely better in narrative when you have like-minded people in your gaming group.

 

Quite possibly the best comment by a member on here in quite some time ;) ... much love. 

[N1SB]

I really like the idea of this thread because, like the back of your haircut, there are things people see about you more clearly than yourself.  I find Warhammer is one of those things, where opponents and observers are more aware of what your best units are because they have to deal with them or wish to get them for themselves.

 

BEFORE I saw the Black Templars Codex, I thought: maybe we find a better use for all those Assault Intercessors people have been getting, because of the Indomitus sets and Necron players who bought the Recruit Edition just because it was marginally higher priced than a box of 10 Necron Warriors and got all these Primaris minis.

 

AFTER I looked through the Black Templars Codex, I thought as you guys did: 5++ Invulnerable Save Marines.  It was as if that vow in itself was a special Chapter Tactic in its own right that overshadows the actual Black Templars ones.  The more I read, including from you guys, the more I realise why I think that is.

 

The interest in the 5++ Invuln Save for someone who's not already a Black Templars player isn't that it's necessarily overpowered; we don't know that yet, we've got to let things shake out.  It's that it's very Plug & Play, a person can build any Marine force they like, like a ranged gunfire army, use them as Black Templars just for the 5++ and it'll still be worth it.  Which actual units benefit the MOST from that 5++ save, I think it's worth exploring further, but definitely something meaningful there.

 

The downside of it is that some players will obviously try to make Black Templars just for that 5++ bonus rather than actual ZEAL.  The upside is it might open up a greater variety of playstyles for Black Templars.  For people who want the Black Templars grimdark, gothic look & feel but don't like playing a melee-focused army, this might open up a lot of possibilities.  I would be curious to see what army lists emerge, very interesting time.

[WrathOfTheLion]

At first glance, was kind of weird that they could get a 5++ across the whole army, when Jink is a 5++ if moving and 4++ if advancing. I think Jink is a better designed mechanic, because it's more interesting while still being good. I don't think that rule is too much or anything, it just had me raise eyebrows at first glance.

 

All in all, it's cool and there's lots of stuff, but at times it almost feels like buffs for the sake of buffs, at that least that was my hot take from the articles. Which if they're not broken isn't a problem, but maybe speaks of weird design decisions on the rules side?

 

Maybe I'm just less familiar with it, but looks less refined than the 9E Inner Circle/Jink/Grim Resolve mechanics, which have pretty clear boundaries on why they don't normally overlap so much.

 

On the smaller maps, SW can get into melee. Wolf Guard Terminators and Blood Claws definitely have a super clear defined role in the army and can do wonders getting in there, which I'm not certain the new BT units have that clear cut niche like those do.

 

I mainly play Space Wolves and Dark Angels, while working on some Lamenters, so looking at it from the SW/DA/BA side of things. I have also not read the BT supplement, so I could very easily have misplaced initial impressions.

Edited October 31, 2021 by WrathOfTheLion

[Schlitzaf]

Its not a 5+ IV and 3+ Transhuman (which to note 3+ Transhuman doable via DIY tactics). It is (benefits) and “you can never get +1 to hit when defending an objective, you cannot get 2+/1+ Save on Squads sitting and Obj Capping, and by extension you are less able to mitigate use of chaff shots against your marines”

 

What do people shoot at msu marine squads not Big High AP. They shoot -1 and -2 AP. Strength 5-7 2 Damage Weapons. Suddenly you wish you got that plus +1 to cover don’t you?

[Medjugorje]

While all other chapters have very potent rules in one of their doctrines - the BT have an armywide rule which is not close as good and comes with a disadvantage. 

[BloodyB]

It seemed powerful, but that 5++ isn't as good as I thought it would be. My AP-1 and -2 didn't trigger it, and that constitutes most of my firepower. In melee, my AP-3 just got treated as AP-2 instead. I didn't feel terribly threatened by it after that. My BA had no great difficulty dealing with them. Sure, wound roll shenanigans are annoying, but kind of limited to being a gimmick this far into 9th ed.

 

My guard on the other hand... The number of times that 5++ came in clutch was unreal. As was the number of times I just let rip with heavy bolters.

 

Honestly, it felt like someone picked extra Chapter tactics rather than a powerful demonstration of faith and zeal. Also, seeing the Emperor's Champion get turned into a thick red paste by hammer of wrath assault marines is deeply satisfying. Nothing personal BT players, but my opponent was ever so scathing in his mockery of my assault marines.

[Medjugorje]

the emperors champion is a joke (rules). I wuold compare him to the new Custodes and the Succubus models. And against them he is pretty :cuss. Really annoying how bad his rules are( or at least his related point costs and his slot)

[Mandragola]

I have mixed feelings about it. Basically, this supplement is all about Uphold the Honour of the Emperor. That's sort of a shame because I think it's trying to be about other things, and maybe even other vows.

 

The relic bearers thing is fun and works, so I like that. There are also some great characters in Helbrecht and Grimaldus, who I think are just not quite auto-take but almost, and the crusader squads that seem to work. On the other hand the EC and sword brethren aren't great and the strats are average. Oh and no other vow is ever as good as uphold, which sucks. It's inconceivable that they could really think any of the others approach uphold's power. It always worries me when the designers seem unable to spot blatantly obvious things like this.

 

I do envy having vows active all game. If they did that for my Fists' super-doctrine I'd be very happy. I think there's a case for detaching super-doctrines from doctrines for everyone, and I think that would level the playing field quite a bit.

 

I do slightly worry that the best army to make from this book is a bunch of elite MEQs in Impulsors, which is pretty far away from what the fluff suggests. It may be that the "black tide" is also viable but I'm not sure.

[MegaVolt87]

As a CSM player I would probably do BT if I had to run 100% firstborn, add FW stuff. From what I have seen, BT is THE firstborn faction at the moment for loyalists. 

[XeonDragon]

I think the new BT codex is consistent with gradual power increases by GW and the game becoming deadlier. It gives me hope that Raven Guard might get something decent, sometime next decade. 

[Blindhamster]

EC seemed a great beat stick for his points cost.. is he really bad or is it just the others are better? (Which they should be)

[Xenith]

I think the comparison can be summed up with the warlord traits. 

 

Blood Angels get Speed of the Primarch, which is Strike First.

 

Black Templars get Master of Arms, which is Strike First and +1 Attack. 

 

BT is literally Codex BA+1(Attack).

 

Then compare Helbrecht and Dante. Sword is S8, AP-3, D3 vs Axe Mortalis at S7, AP-3, D2...remember that Helbrecht is 5pts cheaper, and is tougher with access to THP. No jump pack though. 

 

Vows are the icing on the cake - free 5++ that Thousand Sons have to pay for, free assault doctrine, etc, that is tailored to the opponent before the battle. 

 

The codex game breaking incredible, but looks a hell of a long stronger than other stuff marines can offer. 

 

That said, you have to consider me biased as I play BA and know their flaws, while probably only focussing on the BT strengths - however hopefully this gives you some food for thought on what might make BT strong. 

Edited November 2, 2021 by Xenith

[Marshal Reinhard]

I don't think the inevitable Dante Primarization (you know it'll happen) will be unenviable in anyway.

 

Granted this thread about the situation now, and I have a hard time getting into the headspace that BT are in an enviable position rather than pitiable one.

 

But that's me.