what do non-Black Templar players think about the new BT Sup

[Orange Knight]

I think the comparison can be summed up with the warlord traits.

 

Blood Angels get Speed of the Primarch, which is Strike First.

 

Black Templars get Master of Arms, which is Strike First and +1 Attack.

 

BT is literally Codex BA+1(Attack).

 

Then compare Helbrecht and Dante. Sword is S8, AP-3, D3 vs Axe Mortalis at S7, AP-3, D2...remember that Helbrecht is 5pts cheaper, and is tougher with access to THP. No jump pack though.

 

Vows are the icing on the cake - free 5++ that Thousand Sons have to pay for, free assault doctrine, etc, that is tailored to the opponent before the battle.

 

The codex game breaking incredible, but looks a hell of a long stronger than other stuff marines can offer.

 

That said, you have to consider me biased as I play BA and know their flaws, while probably only focussing on the BT strengths - however hopefully this gives you some food for thought on what might make BT strong.

I feel the same way, and as I outlined in my other topic, I don't see why I shouldn't use the BT rules for my marines going forward.

Edited November 2, 2021 by Orange Knight

[Mandragola]

EC seemed a great beat stick for his points cost.. is he really bad or is it just the others are better? (Which they should be)

I just don’t think he justifies the HQ slot, sadly. 100 points is a lot for a guy who hands out no buffs. He’s choppy, but not as much as the three bladeguard you could get instead.

 

He’s also awkward because there are lots of good traits and relics you might want but he can only take BT traits and no relics. And you’re quite likely to want Helbrecht and maybe Grimaldus, who also have fixed load-outs. That leaves nobody to take rites of battle etc.

[Medjugorje]

EC seemed a great beat stick for his points cost.. is he really bad or is it just the others are better? (Which they should be)

1. others are straight better (and cheaper)

2. other SM / BT characters can do what the EC does plus everything else to buff units

- its normal that every single chaptain can do an amount of damage in close combat but often there are special rules or stratagems for such specific units. A Judiciar for example can support with fight last although his normal profile is a character killer.

 

For example

EC = can kill characters but not buff for 100 points

Judiciar = is close to an emperors champion but not that good, but have an insane special rule (fight last)

Helbrecht = in everything so much better then the EC just 60 points more.

[Medjugorje]

I think the comparison can be summed up with the warlord traits. 

 

Blood Angels get Speed of the Primarch, which is Strike First.

 

Black Templars get Master of Arms, which is Strike First and +1 Attack. 

 

BT is literally Codex BA+1(Attack).

 

Then compare Helbrecht and Dante. Sword is S8, AP-3, D3 vs Axe Mortalis at S7, AP-3, D2...remember that Helbrecht is 5pts cheaper, and is tougher with access to THP. No jump pack though. 

 

Vows are the icing on the cake - free 5++ that Thousand Sons have to pay for, free assault doctrine, etc, that is tailored to the opponent before the battle. 

 

The codex game breaking incredible, but looks a hell of a long stronger than other stuff marines can offer. 

 

That said, you have to consider me biased as I play BA and know their flaws, while probably only focussing on the BT strengths - however hopefully this gives you some food for thought on what might make BT strong. 

but compare that BA dont have to do anything (spend CP or character etc...) to get +1 Attack and +1 to wound !!!

[phandaal]

 

Honestly, it felt like someone picked extra Chapter tactics rather than a powerful demonstration of faith and zeal. Also, seeing the Emperor's Champion get turned into a thick red paste by hammer of wrath assault marines is deeply satisfying. Nothing personal BT players, but my opponent was ever so scathing in his mockery of my assault marines.

 

Nice. Sometimes that smack talk will come back to bite!

[SkimaskMohawk]

This is kind of a weird one from a game-feel perspective. The popular theorycrafted impulsor and redemptor spam with melee support honestly just feels like generic marines. They're pretty durable and are capable in both melee and shooting, without anything truly outrageous; they feel like the baseline of space marines and not particularly unique.

 

I suspect that leaning into a black tide will change that. They're fully capable of being a melee army that a lot of other marine lists can't replicate due to crusader squads, vows and buffs from characters.

[Blindhamster]

 

 

I think the comparison can be summed up with the warlord traits.

 

Blood Angels get Speed of the Primarch, which is Strike First.

 

Black Templars get Master of Arms, which is Strike First and +1 Attack.

 

BT is literally Codex BA+1(Attack).

 

Then compare Helbrecht and Dante. Sword is S8, AP-3, D3 vs Axe Mortalis at S7, AP-3, D2...remember that Helbrecht is 5pts cheaper, and is tougher with access to THP. No jump pack though.

 

Vows are the icing on the cake - free 5++ that Thousand Sons have to pay for, free assault doctrine, etc, that is tailored to the opponent before the battle.

 

The codex game breaking incredible, but looks a hell of a long stronger than other stuff marines can offer.

 

That said, you have to consider me biased as I play BA and know their flaws, while probably only focussing on the BT strengths - however hopefully this gives you some food for thought on what might make BT strong.

but compare that BA dont have to do anything (spend CP or character etc...) to get +1 Attack and +1 to wound !!!

More precisely:

 

+1 to wound in melee and +1 on advance/charge rolls and +1 attack for 2-3 turns of the game starting from turn 3 at the earliest.

 

Vs

 

5+++ vs mortal wounds all game, reroll any charge dice, 5++ and mini transhuman all game (which is actually a hard counter to the blood angels +1 to wound benefit)

 

Blood angels hit a little harder some of the game and only in melee, black templars are more durable all the time, melee or ranged and have a defense vs one of the metas (mortal wound spam). Both are marginally okay at charging, black templars are more consistent whilst blood angels can potentially go further.

Edited November 2, 2021 by Blindhamster

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

It seemed powerful, but that 5++ isn't as good as I thought it would be. My AP-1 and -2 didn't trigger it, and that constitutes most of my firepower. In melee, my AP-3 just got treated as AP-2 instead. I didn't feel terribly threatened by it after that. My BA had no great difficulty dealing with them. Sure, wound roll shenanigans are annoying, but kind of limited to being a gimmick this far into 9th ed.

My guard on the other hand... The number of times that 5++ came in clutch was unreal. As was the number of times I just let rip with heavy bolters.

Honestly, it felt like someone picked extra Chapter tactics rather than a powerful demonstration of faith and zeal. Also, seeing the Emperor's Champion get turned into a thick red paste by hammer of wrath assault marines is deeply satisfying. Nothing personal BT players, but my opponent was ever so scathing in his mockery of my assault marines.

You doesnot have to take same vow each game.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

The knee-jerk reaction to the Uphold was, I believe, unwarranted.  As BloodyB rightly points out, in practice most anti-infantry guns are only AP1 or 2 with the exception of plasma (which I honesty consider more dual purpose than anything), so the 5++ will not come into play against most Templar infantry.

 

Where I think Uphold really makes its money though is against vehicles (including Dreadnoughts).  Most anti-tank weapons are AP3 or better, most notably lascannons and meltaguns, meaning the 5++ actually kicks in.  For comparison, consider the common use of Psychic Fortress to protect Space Marine vehicles during early turns.  The clearest benefit here is for Templar transports, keeping them alive longer and allowing melee units cross the table faster and thus get into combat faster.

[Medjugorje]

 

 

I think the comparison can be summed up with the warlord traits.

 

Blood Angels get Speed of the Primarch, which is Strike First.

 

Black Templars get Master of Arms, which is Strike First and +1 Attack.

 

BT is literally Codex BA+1(Attack).

 

Then compare Helbrecht and Dante. Sword is S8, AP-3, D3 vs Axe Mortalis at S7, AP-3, D2...remember that Helbrecht is 5pts cheaper, and is tougher with access to THP. No jump pack though.

 

Vows are the icing on the cake - free 5++ that Thousand Sons have to pay for, free assault doctrine, etc, that is tailored to the opponent before the battle.

 

The codex game breaking incredible, but looks a hell of a long stronger than other stuff marines can offer.

 

That said, you have to consider me biased as I play BA and know their flaws, while probably only focussing on the BT strengths - however hopefully this gives you some food for thought on what might make BT strong.

but compare that BA dont have to do anything (spend CP or character etc...) to get +1 Attack and +1 to wound !!!

More precisely:

 

+1 to wound in melee and +1 on advance/charge rolls and +1 attack for 2-3 turns of the game starting from turn 3 at the earliest.

 

Vs

 

5+++ vs mortal wounds all game, reroll any charge dice, 5++ and mini transhuman all game (which is actually a hard counter to the blood angels +1 to wound benefit)

 

Blood angels hit a little harder some of the game and only in melee, black templars are more durable all the time, melee or ranged and have a defense vs one of the metas (mortal wound spam). Both are marginally okay at charging, black templars are more consistent whilst blood angels can potentially go further.

 

I dont get why people always think like that. You have a stratagem which pulls your favourite unit into the right doctrine. Everyone would do it when their 200+ point unit is charging anything which is important. And this last word is all about. If you want to have it--- you can get it. 

Edited November 3, 2021 by Medjugorje

[The Unseen]

 

 

 

 

I think the comparison can be summed up with the warlord traits.

 

Blood Angels get Speed of the Primarch, which is Strike First.

 

Black Templars get Master of Arms, which is Strike First and +1 Attack.

 

BT is literally Codex BA+1(Attack).

 

Then compare Helbrecht and Dante. Sword is S8, AP-3, D3 vs Axe Mortalis at S7, AP-3, D2...remember that Helbrecht is 5pts cheaper, and is tougher with access to THP. No jump pack though.

 

Vows are the icing on the cake - free 5++ that Thousand Sons have to pay for, free assault doctrine, etc, that is tailored to the opponent before the battle.

 

The codex game breaking incredible, but looks a hell of a long stronger than other stuff marines can offer.

 

That said, you have to consider me biased as I play BA and know their flaws, while probably only focussing on the BT strengths - however hopefully this gives you some food for thought on what might make BT strong.

but compare that BA dont have to do anything (spend CP or character etc...) to get +1 Attack and +1 to wound !!!

More precisely:

 

+1 to wound in melee and +1 on advance/charge rolls and +1 attack for 2-3 turns of the game starting from turn 3 at the earliest.

 

Vs

 

5+++ vs mortal wounds all game, reroll any charge dice, 5++ and mini transhuman all game (which is actually a hard counter to the blood angels +1 to wound benefit)

 

Blood angels hit a little harder some of the game and only in melee, black templars are more durable all the time, melee or ranged and have a defense vs one of the metas (mortal wound spam). Both are marginally okay at charging, black templars are more consistent whilst blood angels can potentially go further.

I dont get why people always think like that. You have a stratagem which pulls your favourite unit into the right doctrine. Everyone would do it when their 200+ point unit is charging anything which is important. And this last word is all about. If you want to have it--- you can get it.

Blood Angels can't put a unit into the assault doctrine with a Strat.

The only way BA can is through a sanguinary priest, in the command phase, with a short ranged single target buff.

So if your in a transport or deep striking, too bad. Want to send in your DC with the pregame movement to get that turn 1 disruption charge, they won't be getting ANY combat buffs at all.

Ohh and don't forget, any chapter can get our chapter tactic basically the same way, with a chaplain Litany for +1 to wound in melee.

 

They're also 130+ pts for what is otherwise a straight apothecary with a chainsword, and got hit with the same nerfs all the other apothecaries did. Ohh and almost forget, unlike other chapters which turns on all doctrines for a unit, ours specifically overriddes all the others and counts them as only in assault doctrine. So if you have a shooty AND choppy squad you lose the others. It's a small thing, but it always irritated me.

 

I haven't done a really thorough deep dive, but on an initial glance, BT seem just better in most circumstances than most other choices. Most of the prominent marine lists showing any success at all involved finding ways to give Dreadnoughts an invuln. BT can just, choose to do that if it matters.

And if you run into an opponent who doesn't have any AP-3 or better, like say a Nid list, you can choose a different Vow and keep the cover save.

 

They have probably the best chaplain on Bike, one of marines strongest units, the mini Relics you can give sergeants are really cool, and the 5+++ vs mortals is suddenly very Meta.

Edited November 3, 2021 by The Unseen

[Xenith]

 

but compare that BA dont have to do anything (spend CP or character etc...) to get +1 Attack and +1 to wound !!!

 

 

 

 

More precisely:

 

+1 to wound in melee and +1 on advance/charge rolls and +1 attack for 2-3 turns of the game starting from turn 3 at the earliest.

I dont get why people always think like that. You have a stratagem which pulls your favourite unit into the right doctrine. 

 

 

So which is it, BA get all the freebies with no strats needed...or we need strats to get those bonuses? 

 

+1 to wound and +1 to charge is BA's chapter tactic, of which BT's get one also, which is better (reroll charges/advances is better than +1 to either). +1 to wound is good, but useless on a lot of stuff, like axes vs T3, or power fists v T4.

 

BT's get to pick from a bunch of game long alternative bonuses for free (that can be tailored to the opponent), while BA get +1 attack from T3 onwards unless we bring a 150pt priest to give it to one unit or spend a bunch of CP to give it to one unit. 

Edited November 3, 2021 by Xenith

[Medjugorje]

 

 

but compare that BA dont have to do anything (spend CP or character etc...) to get +1 Attack and +1 to wound !!!

 

 

 

 

More precisely:

 

+1 to wound in melee and +1 on advance/charge rolls and +1 attack for 2-3 turns of the game starting from turn 3 at the earliest.

I dont get why people always think like that. You have a stratagem which pulls your favourite unit into the right doctrine. 

 

 

So which is it, BA get all the freebies with no strats needed...or we need strats to get those bonuses? 

 

+1 to wound and +1 to charge is BA's chapter tactic, of which BT's get one also, which is better (reroll charges/advances is better than +1 to either). +1 to wound is good, but useless on a lot of stuff, like axes vs T3, or power fists v T4.

 

BT's get to pick from a bunch of game long alternative bonuses for free (that can be tailored to the opponent), while BA get +1 attack from T3 onwards unless we bring a 150pt priest to give it to one unit or spend a bunch of CP to give it to one unit. 

 

Spend CPs is nothing which cannot be made. But if your buffs depends on characters then they must survive, have to be close to this unit, no psychic power must be made, no litany recitated.

 

Its just jump forward and attack as you would do it anyways. Thats what I mean. Everything clear? 

 

EDIT: and dont forget that a stratagem is always possible to use - psychic powers and litanies must be taken before. !!!

Edited November 3, 2021 by Medjugorje

[tychobi]

From an outside competitive perspective I am unafraid of Black Templars making a big splash. While better than most space marine chapters the heavy hitters of the moment should have no trouble beating them. 5++ aint gonna help you much in a dakkastorm of squigs n rokkits.

[Blindhamster]

From an outside competitive perspective I am unafraid of Black Templars making a big splash. While better than most space marine chapters the heavy hitters of the moment should have no trouble beating them. 5++ aint gonna help you much in a dakkastorm of squigs n rokkits.

rokkits won't wound as easily as normal though. So they still get a benefit there too.

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

Uphold is interesting because it feels like the other 3 vows are supposed to be situational, and its meant to be a build around. There are plenty of really good marine units that aren't going to see a buff from it (VV, Leviathans, and terminators), and it isn't a great choice for your troops either.

 

That said there are a lot of great units that benefit from it immensely (redemptors, transports, and Attack Bikes). So its power level is going to vary. I don't think its going to knock DE or Admech down a peg but those books are pretty broken.

 

IF it were up to me, the other marine chapters wouldn't have rules tied into being in certain steps of doctrine system its clunky and chapters like IF just don't work right now. I do think it would be cool if chapters had a drawback tied to their single fraction buff.

[Blindhamster]

VV still benefit from the mini transhuman, same for leviathans and terminators.

[SkimaskMohawk]

VV still benefit from the mini transhuman, same for leviathans and terminators.

 

Yea it does seem like there's always some broad application to Uphold, and that the Chaplains can pray your specific unit into the melee vows.

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

VV still benefit from the mini transhuman, same for leviathans and terminators.

 

Yeah they do a gain benefit from it, I just don't think they gain as much as some of the other choices. IF you lean into those three units hard you may be better picking something else. For example VV gain a lot from always being in the assault doctrine because they tend to rely LC so the extra ap is important. VV also can be bit grindy so the bonus attack is pretty desirable.

 

I just think the best builds for uphold are going to be finding and abusing units that gain the max benefit. For example if ap is that big an issue than maybe they'll run heavy intercessors (t5, and the ignore -1 ap strat).

[TheNewman]

Blood Angels can't put a unit into the assault doctrine with a Strat.

I don't think anyone has directly addressed this, but he was probably talking about Adaptive Strategy from the main codex.

[Medjugorje]

 

Blood Angels can't put a unit into the assault doctrine with a Strat.

I don't think anyone has directly addressed this, but he was probably talking about Adaptive Strategy from the main codex.

 

thats typical. I speak with people who arguing against me and even dont know their rules. I never think about to mention each stratagem because I thought that everybody memorized each stratagem. 

[N1SB]

 

Where I think Uphold really makes its money though is against vehicles (including Dreadnoughts).  Most anti-tank weapons are AP3 or better, most notably lascannons and meltaguns, meaning the 5++ actually kicks in.  For comparison, consider the common use of Psychic Fortress to protect Space Marine vehicles during early turns.  The clearest benefit here is for Templar transports, keeping them alive longer and allowing melee units cross the table faster and thus get into combat faster.

 

I agree and I think many interested in the 5++ Vow were thinking of Vehicles, especially Dreadnoughts, not Infantry.  Invictor Warsuits rather than Intercessors, for example.  In fact, I saw another thread that suggested Land Speeders were the new Black, while others talked about Centurions, an idea I also really liked.

 

I reckon I was being boring, but I intuitively turned to Redemptor Dreadnoughts.  5++ to help against anti-tank weapons, exactly as you pointed out, then the Black Templars 5+ vs. Mortal Wounds, which is increasingly the way people deal with Vehicles now.  Over lunch I put together a 25 Power Level Crusade list, like:

• Techmarine, can be Firstborn or Primaris
• 2 x Redemptor Dreadnoughts, both with Heavy & Lite Gatling Guns, Icarus Rockets
• 1 squad of Servitors, 2x Servor Arms and 2x Heavy Weapons, using up leftover points

While putting this together, tacking on Servitors at the end, I remembered Servitors don't get the Vow...thus don't have the penalty Passion, either.  So Servitors get the benefit of cover, not that it matters, but it kinda amused me.  However, the real story here is, the Vows expand the Black Templars playstyle, like this ranged list.

 

Before the Iron Hands were nerfed, they were the go-to Chapter for a Dreadnought-heavy army, due to increased survivability from their named Character Ironfather Feirros and their Ironstone Relic.  Actually...I think the 5++ Vow does what Feirros used to offer, his bubble covering Redemptors and Repulsors was why he was nerfed.

 

A caveat, technically, Iron Hands have the advantage in terms of damage dealing with their Reroll Machine Spirit Stratagem that allows a Vehicle to re-roll all missed dice, that was a trade-off I realised while making this list, which was why I didn't put Plasma Incinerators here.  But still...Black Templar Dreads list, who'd have thunk?

 

This is 1 type of thing that non-Black Templars like me think about the new Codex, which is why I shared the list I made on my phone's Battlescribe in 1 hand, eating utensil in the other.  How about Black Templar Flyers with 5++?  It's not like they get cover in the sky anyway.  Actually...that's also something to consider.

[crazyterran]

The only people who think the book is bad/underwhelming are BT players who expected to be made OP.

 

It’s a lot better then pretty much every other supplement for codex marines, and offers such a wide variety of extras to list building and it will be interesting to see how it does once people get a chance to play with it a bit.

[Medjugorje]

The only people who think the book is bad/underwhelming are BT players who expected to be made OP.

 

It’s a lot better then pretty much every other supplement for codex marines, and offers such a wide variety of extras to list building and it will be interesting to see how it does once people get a chance to play with it a bit.

NO.

 

There are BT players who liked a book which would made MSU armies possible. But that book makes what I hate on all Marine armies. All of them are so dpendant by characters. 

 

I dont like the SM codex style in general. For me this codex would be PERFECT if they just made a few things different. AAC is so weak... for example. I dont like that everything depends on that ONE single VOW. I would have prefered a Vow which made my units better in close combat. ( i mean really better - not that stupid bad AAC or Suffer which is still very bad).

 

Its all about the playstyle. And that is far different although i think in general stronger then before. But honestly I liked the Index FAR FAAAR more.