Which is the least popular Legion?

[Indefragable]

 

Another potential factor to scars being unpopular is the scheme. White is daunting to paint for most people, and you don't quite have the fallback that world eaters do of being covered in grit and blood that can help offset things.

 

Also you know, being last to get their primarch and having mechanically disfunctional rules on won't help either.

I'd like to add that imo the mongol theme doesn't come off as interesting to most players.

 

Edit: Any XX love?

 

 

The other issue with White Scars is that I think they're pigeonholed into a single shtick, both perception-wise from players and rules-wise: bikes. People who play the more popular armies tend to be in it for the collection as much as the gameplay or hobbying, and it seems like the idea of collecting say White Scars Dreadnoughts (as amazing as the models are) is just not as appealing for many people. 

 

If I had more time and money I would collect a full White Scars collection in a heartbeat. 

[StrangerOrders]

For my part I can't recall ever meeting another Emperor's Children player irl and I do not think I've seen another loyalist EC player on top of that online. But I dont frequent many other communities beyond this one though.

 

Its fairly understandable, the EC are not exactly top-tier and not that many people are willing to cripple themselves by excluding Sonic Shriekers for lore-accuracy lol.

 

Loyalists and traitors are fairly easy to square imo, the Legions were big and we have a surfeit of canon examples of garrison commitments or ceremonial companies being scattered all over the place. Its the headcanon for my loyalists and I think its an easy buy for most any Legion. You are doing garrison work in the middle of nowhere, you are not exactly going to be plugged in on the news and not every Primarch is going to be paying attention about gathering a spare hundred marines here or there. 

 

As for traitor Loyalists... there is stuff in the Black Books about at least one Space Wolf company and a White Scar company that were seconded to the Warmaster for some reason or other and got turned. You also have examples of insane Iron Hand groups doing random and extremely questionable stuff left and right (thinking about the guys with the necromancer swords).

[Pacific81]

You really don't see many Blood Angel armies around for HH.

 

I think it's because they're so close to 40k that its a little boring for some.

 

Think this is definitely a major factor. 

 

You have to think, when the first pre-heresy and then heresy-era stuff came along, a lot of gamers had had over 15 years of painting marines in the same colours. You had the same poster boys, and it was very likely that marine players had collected and painted blood angels, ultramarines etc. depending on what edition they jumped on board. 

 

Just having some of those guys in marginally different armour, perhaps a slightly different shade, I don't think is as much a hook as having white and blue (good guy!) World Eaters/War Hounds, or non-Nurgly Death Guard, I don't think. There was much more exciting new stuff that you could let your imagination run with in the Traitor Legions, which was why they were much more popular at first. 

 

Regarding the lack of Traitor contingents of Loyalist factions…

 

…I think the the fact that every single Loyalist Legion was betrayed in some way adds a certain empathy to them. It’s hard to come up with a compelling narrative for why say Salamanders would go with Horus when you feel just how shattered they are from Isstvan…and even if they would leave the cause of the Imperium they would never side with those who so deceptively murdered their brethren. It’s precisely why Loyalist contingents of Traitor Lwgions, especially those from Isstvan III are so compelling: that righteous fury.

 

 

I think also the actual reason de etre of Horus' rebellion feeds into it. 

 

Because it was reduced to "stabbed by magic sword, now I'm evil and want to be big boss and burn the Imperium to ashes and then command those ashes" then your only plausible plot point at that moment is for the other legions being corrupted by Chaos themselves. There is no rational reason why members of Loyalist legions would decide Horus should be their boss, because from the outside it would have just looked mental. 

 

There was plenty of potential for creating a rational reason for rebellion (I know these things are mentioned from time to time, but aren't really given enough weight): The Imperium (decadent human adminstratum) wasting Marine lives, relegating them to garrisons and removing their martial power, even planning to wipe them out as per the Thunder Warriors when their work was done. Any of these things could have created a 'rational' argument for why Horus and Co. betrayed both their progenitor and commander of 200 years. Speaking personally, I think this would have created a much more powerful narrative, and even perhaps let you feel some empathy towards the Traitor legions. But, instead they went with "a wizard did it", and that immediately restricts the causal elements that could have been introduced, unless Chaos somehow manages to get involved.

 

There have been a couple of attempts - the Garro book and the renegade White Scars springs to mind, but even that "we follow Horus because he is STRONG" felt quite weak and I didn't find it very believable. 

 

Just my thoughts

[Indefragable]

 

You really don't see many Blood Angel armies around for HH.

 

I think it's because they're so close to 40k that its a little boring for some.

 

Think this is definitely a major factor. 

 

You have to think, when the first pre-heresy and then heresy-era stuff came along, a lot of gamers had had over 15 years of painting marines in the same colours. You had the same poster boys, and it was very likely that marine players had collected and painted blood angels, ultramarines etc. depending on what edition they jumped on board. 

 

Just having some of those guys in marginally different armour, perhaps a slightly different shade, I don't think is as much a hook as having white and blue (good guy!) World Eaters/War Hounds, or non-Nurgly Death Guard, I don't think. There was much more exciting new stuff that you could let your imagination run with in the Traitor Legions, which was why they were much more popular at first. 

 

Regarding the lack of Traitor contingents of Loyalist factions…

 

…I think the the fact that every single Loyalist Legion was betrayed in some way adds a certain empathy to them. It’s hard to come up with a compelling narrative for why say Salamanders would go with Horus when you feel just how shattered they are from Isstvan…and even if they would leave the cause of the Imperium they would never side with those who so deceptively murdered their brethren. It’s precisely why Loyalist contingents of Traitor Lwgions, especially those from Isstvan III are so compelling: that righteous fury.

 

 

I think also the actual reason de etre of Horus' rebellion feeds into it. 

 

Because it was reduced to "stabbed by magic sword, now I'm evil and want to be big boss and burn the Imperium to ashes and then command those ashes" then your only plausible plot point at that moment is for the other legions being corrupted by Chaos themselves. There is no rational reason why members of Loyalist legions would decide Horus should be their boss, because from the outside it would have just looked mental. 

 

There was plenty of potential for creating a rational reason for rebellion (I know these things are mentioned from time to time, but aren't really given enough weight): The Imperium (decadent human adminstratum) wasting Marine lives, relegating them to garrisons and removing their martial power, even planning to wipe them out as per the Thunder Warriors when their work was done. Any of these things could have created a 'rational' argument for why Horus and Co. betrayed both their progenitor and commander of 200 years. Speaking personally, I think this would have created a much more powerful narrative, and even perhaps let you feel some empathy towards the Traitor legions. But, instead they went with "a wizard did it", and that immediately restricts the causal elements that could have been introduced, unless Chaos somehow manages to get involved.

 

There have been a couple of attempts - the Garro book and the renegade White Scars springs to mind, but even that "we follow Horus because he is STRONG" felt quite weak and I didn't find it very believable. 

 

Just my thoughts

 

 

The White Scars are an interesting one since even Khan himself was split when he found out about the HH. He has the best arc in the entire HH novel series because of how...well...realistic he is. 

 

There are things he doesn't like about the Emperor/Imperium and he's always felt like a bit of an outcast...but at the same time he doesn't fully trust that the Traitors have the best interests of anyone but themselves at heart...and there's a big difference between renovating a building and burning it to the ground, pissing on the ashes, salting the earth, and then building something completely different on top.

[Cris R]

I think one reason Loyalists may be less popular is that for many loyalist legions the visual identity is close to their 40k chapter. If you love Ultramarines, Imperial Fists or even White Scars then you might quite possibly go the 40k route rather than 30k. Sure, some people make armies to do double duty, but I expect that’s getting rarer in the Primaris Age.

 

I feel like that’s part of the appeal of Dark Angels - they have a more distinctive 30k scheme to set them apart.

 

And I also feel it’s a bit of an issue for Space Wolves. 30k players know it’s *not* meant to be Wolfy McWolfface in blue-grey, riding a wolf chariot with beer-flecked braids in your beard, but maybe enough of us haven’t found a way to get a distinctive ‘look’ yet which still reflects the very appealing lore. It’s a question of subtlety (ironically, given what we typically consider to be very un-subtle space marines).

In terms of a distinct look from their 40k counterpart, Blood Angels are more like Dark Angels in 30k than the other loyalist legions. I never liked their look or feel in 40k but their 30k models and rules do a great job of balancing their hard earned noble nature against their proclivity for relentless, brutal aggression on the battlefield.

[Mogsam]

The wizard did it trope is a major issue. Daven is supposed to be the turning points where Horus' many concerns are tipped from risks into actual issues. But it never really feels like that.

 

The best fantasy characters motivations are normal, not fantastical. It's easy to sympathise with Horus when he's genuinely worried about being replaced, he's scared that the Emperor doesn't need him and that their future is threatened. It's hard to sympathise with him when he knows that Erebus is working with some mystical power to actively lie to him. The Emperor might be replacing him, but he's literally just fought a giant plague monster, he's gotta know its a terrible decision.

[Indefragable]

The wizard did it trope is a major issue. Daven is supposed to be the turning points where Horus' many concerns are tipped from risks into actual issues. But it never really feels like that.

 

The best fantasy characters motivations are normal, not fantastical. It's easy to sympathise with Horus when he's genuinely worried about being replaced, he's scared that the Emperor doesn't need him and that their future is threatened. It's hard to sympathise with him when he knows that Erebus is working with some mystical power to actively lie to him. The Emperor might be replacing him, but he's literally just fought a giant plague monster, he's gotta know its a terrible decision.

 

It's the issue of scale. 

 

On one hand, it's a setting with walking sky-scraper churches with guns and melting people with mind bullets, so a creator naturally wants to have some earth-shattering space magic kung fu involved in the most decisive decision in the setting.

 

On the other hand, something something humanization something something Greek tragedy something something Primarchs are human only exaggeratedly so, thus their very human flaws are as well something something. Thus the decision should be as simple as the feeling of "dad left me!" be at the heart of it. 

 

Those two are not mutually exclusive and can go hand-in-hand, but that is very easy to get messy and end up half- :cuss -ing each which is what I think we have in the BL series. 

 

Needless to say, another reason why it's harder to make overtly compelling reasons for Loyalist Legion members to go Traitor beyond "they have free pizza Fridays."

[LameBeard]

 

Because it was reduced to "stabbed by magic sword, now I'm evil and want to be big boss and burn the Imperium to ashes and then command those ashes" then your only plausible plot point at that moment is for the other legions being corrupted by Chaos themselves. There is no rational reason why members of Loyalist legions would decide Horus should be their boss, because from the outside it would have just looked mental. 

 

There was plenty of potential for creating a rational reason for rebellion (I know these things are mentioned from time to time, but aren't really given enough weight): The Imperium (decadent human adminstratum) wasting Marine lives, relegating them to garrisons and removing their martial power, even planning to wipe them out as per the Thunder Warriors when their work was done. Any of these things could have created a 'rational' argument for why Horus and Co. betrayed both their progenitor and commander of 200 years. Speaking personally, I think this would have created a much more powerful narrative, and even perhaps let you feel some empathy towards the Traitor legions. But, instead they went with "a wizard did it", and that immediately restricts the causal elements that could have been introduced, unless Chaos somehow manages to get involved.

 

There have been a couple of attempts - the Garro book and the renegade White Scars springs to mind, but even that "we follow Horus because he is STRONG" felt quite weak and I didn't find it very believable. 

 

The wizard did it trope is a major issue. Daven is supposed to be the turning points where Horus' many concerns are tipped from risks into actual issues. But it never really feels like that.

 

The best fantasy characters motivations are normal, not fantastical. It's easy to sympathise with Horus when he's genuinely worried about being replaced, he's scared that the Emperor doesn't need him and that their future is threatened. It's hard to sympathise with him when he knows that Erebus is working with some mystical power to actively lie to him. The Emperor might be replacing him, but he's literally just fought a giant plague monster, he's gotta know its a terrible decision.

 

 

Needless to say, another reason why it's harder to make overtly compelling reasons for Loyalist Legion members to go Traitor beyond "they have free pizza Fridays."

 

 

Some of my favourite parts of the Black Library novels are where we get the perspective that the Emperor is not the good guy. He's ruthless, single-minded and bloodthirsty for a start.  Grammaticus is one window on this, but we get more - we can see that both His vision for humanity and His means of achieving it are wrong. We see the (dramatic) irony in 'beloved by all'. The problem is, that there is nothing there for an Astartes to rebel against. The Astartes are ruthless, single-minded and often bloodthirsty. And without the Emperor's vision and His means of achieving it, they are worthless. So although it makes sense for many to rebel, it doesn't for a Space Marine.  And in any case, Horus is not offering a separate vision early on, he just states he will sit the throne instead.

 

Davin is a problem. In my mind it's because Horus doesn't make the key decision.  It's the Mournival who do. So what happens at Davin is great for the story of Abandon and Loken, but bad for the story of Horus.

 

The theme of deceit is a better one. In the novels I've read there are only tiny hints of the Emperor's deceit, how he lies or only reveals part of the truth, e.g. about the origins of the Primarchs. But what people on this forum suggest is more explicit - that the Emperor always planned to do away with (some of) the legions after they had fulfilled their use, and has precedent with the Thunder Warriors. This is a great motive for rebellion, but I haven't seen that in the novels, any tips where I can find this?

Horus Rising has an early scene with Loken (and by extension all the legions) preparing for a life after war, so the betrayal would cut deep. Maybe Alpha Legion might just shrug, but most Astartes would be stung in the extreme.

 

In the absence of this, my best ideas for 'Loyalist Legions siding with Horus' would be witnesses to the Emperor's atrocities.

 

Example 1: An Ultramarine captain, who was brought up in Ultramar (the relatively civilised part of the galaxy), is present at Monarchia.  A legion is shamed and a people dispossessed, blinded and killed, just to teach a Primarch a lesson? This is a collective punishment of innocents and a war crime on a huge scale. On what is, essentially, the most compliant planet in the galaxy. The captain is sickened and ashamed for having taken part, disgusted at his own Primarch for such disinterest. Brooding on this for years, slowly turning his company, he takes the chance when he hears about an alternative, the true honourable warrior that is Horus. Naturally he has to be the other side of the galaxy and utterly ignorant of Calth and the Shadow Crusade until he's in way, way too deep ...

 

Example 2: Someone present at Nikaea, sympathetic to Magnus. Perhaps a Librarian or other officer, or a group of marines. I think Sanguinius was sympathetic, so perhaps they are Blood Angels. They see the Emperor's hypocrisy this day.  Then, through coincidence, they also witness, or see the aftermath of Prospero. They know nothing about Magnus breaking the webway, they take the Emperor at his word - this is the consequence of Magnus maintaining a Librarius.  They see an act of violence and betrayal by the Emperor, and the savagery of his wolves. For Magnus was only seeking enlightenment and following his nature.  And if this group of Blood Angels know of the flaw, and of Sanguinius's own fears about that empty plinth on Terra, then they reason it is only a matter of time before the Emperor turns on them.  Horus's offer is a chance of salvation - both their honour and survival depend on joining him.

 

OK I think I might have convinced myself on that last one. I'm declaring my Blood Angels as traitor until further notice.

[WrathOfTheLion]

The terran/Primarch homeworld divide could also be something that could be used to drive that dynamic.

 

Some legions, like the Dark Angels, managed to work that out pretty well with both having similar cultures. Some of them had stronger conflicts there, however, such as the Raven Guard. There could be Legionnaires from these legions that have served for many years in the early Great Crusade, then under Horus for decades, and may have been displaced from command by their Primarch and seen the ways of their legions changed. They may remember that bond with Horus and those glorious early days, and decide to join with him to honor that.

Edited December 23, 2021 by WrathOfTheLion

[LameBeard]

The terran/Primarch homeworld divide could also be something that could be used to drive that dynamic. Some legions, like the Dark Angels, managed to work that out pretty well

I agree on the idea, but not sure on the example - are you being tongue in cheek? I thought Terra/Caliban split and disgruntled former commander made Dark Angels the classic example of this? Isn’t that the story arc in Fallen Angels / Angels of Caliban?

[Pacific81]

That was a really great post LameBeard. Someone get this man a job at BL! :) 

 

 

The wizard did it trope is a major issue. Daven is supposed to be the turning points where Horus' many concerns are tipped from risks into actual issues. But it never really feels like that.

The best fantasy characters motivations are normal, not fantastical. It's easy to sympathise with Horus when he's genuinely worried about being replaced, he's scared that the Emperor doesn't need him and that their future is threatened. It's hard to sympathise with him when he knows that Erebus is working with some mystical power to actively lie to him. The Emperor might be replacing him, but he's literally just fought a giant plague monster, he's gotta know its a terrible decision.

 

It's the issue of scale. 

 

On one hand, it's a setting with walking sky-scraper churches with guns and melting people with mind bullets, so a creator naturally wants to have some earth-shattering space magic kung fu involved in the most decisive decision in the setting.

 

On the other hand, something something humanization something something Greek tragedy something something Primarchs are human only exaggeratedly so, thus their very human flaws are as well something something. Thus the decision should be as simple as the feeling of "dad left me!" be at the heart of it. 

 

Those two are not mutually exclusive and can go hand-in-hand, but that is very easy to get messy and end up half- -ing each which is what I think we have in the BL series. 

Needless to say, another reason why it's harder to make overtly compelling reasons for Loyalist Legion members to go Traitor beyond "they have free pizza Fridays."

 

 

Yes I think that's the difficulty with any fantasy setting. You can have the most insane, 5th dimension madness in terms of the world the characters live in, but ultimately I think the story lives or dies in terms of how you can relate to the characters and why they do the things they do. 

 

It's why ADB is probably my favourite BL author; he understands this fact and is able to write characters so well, especially the 'bad' guys. The characters are removed from their pedestal of doing god-like things for unknowable reasons, and instead are made relatable. We are transported right there alongside those characters, feeling their pain, occasionally their joy, even laughing with them (and then feeling bad about doing so afterwards!)

 

I know mention is always made of Greek tales and myth, but there is a very real reason that their format of characterising the progression of human emotions has endured, in every sort of setting you can think of, for thousands of year. 

[WrathOfTheLion]

 

The terran/Primarch homeworld divide could also be something that could be used to drive that dynamic. Some legions, like the Dark Angels, managed to work that out pretty well

I agree on the idea, but not sure on the example - are you being tongue in cheek? I thought Terra/Caliban split and disgruntled former commander made Dark Angels the classic example of this? Isn’t that the story arc in Fallen Angels / Angels of Caliban?

 

I haven't really read those two novels yet, but was going off of book 9 lore. They were split a little bit on it in book 9, but they did accept Jonson as their leader, and the organization of the 1st Legion didn't overly change that much. So while there might be an example there in those books, I would think it would've been more prevalent in other legions, especially the XIX, given how heavy-handed Corax dealt with them in his Primarch novel.

 

So while there might be an individual instance there, the 1st Legion still accommodates the terran way of doing things, even still allowing the Angels of Death winged reaper as a substitution for the winged sword icon. And in the end, it's almost a little bit reversed there, as it's the Calibanite side under Luther that ends up going rogue during the Scouring.

Edited December 23, 2021 by WrathOfTheLion

[Indefragable]

 

<snip>

 

 

So not to dissuade you or say you're wrong with your well written post, and **Disclaimer I am a huge BA fanboy**, but three things come to mind:

 

A. With your UM Captain on Monarchia example, the question becomes "why join Horus?" That's what Blackshields more or less are: ronin who can not longer serve their master. There would have to be a compelling reason for said Captain to link up with Horus' cause specifically. 

 

i.e. in the movie The Deer Hunter one of the main characters

Christopher Walken's character goes AWOL and is later found living a shadow life in clubs playing Russian roulette

walks off duty while serving in the US Army in Vietnam due to traumatic experience. What he doesn't do is switch sides and end up fighting for the Viet Cong. 

 

Not to trample your idea, but personally I would take it that one step further and say:

Hidden Content

the UM Captain is in fact so horrified that he seeks atonement from the Word Bearers for Monarchia and sees his former Legion has complicit and deserving of WB retribution...but the WB would just gladly sacrifice him as part of a dark ritual, so instead some part of Traitor command sees the UM Captain for the asset he is and says "yes yes you will get your atonement, but we need you in sector B instead."

 

B. Generic to all legions: How would that sort of sentiment not be handled internally within a Legion? Isstvan III was essentially the culmination of internal dissent; disagreements on direction of the participating Legions (whether overtly stated or not). So there would have to be a compelling reason such dissent was not and could not be sorted out within the Legion ; there would have to be a reason they not only turn their back on their Legion, but on their genesire specifically, most especially for the ones with cults of personality or extreme personal loyalty like the BA. Especially since in every single case other than perhaps the DA and WS, the Loyalist Legions are betrayed. Thus the rational self-interest course of self-preservation would be to stay Loyal or bug out and go Blackshield...but openly siding with the Traitors would be a bold move and essentially have to be determined pre-betrayal. 

 

C. Blood Angels specifically:

Book 8: Malevolence goes into great detail of just how much of a transformation Sanguinius enacted with the IX Legion when he reunited with them. The pre-Sangy BA were essentially a living, self-replicating fire-and-forget bio weapon. They were the bottom of the barrel in terms of Legion standing and rather literally when it came to recruiting practices as the IX geneseed could work with the widest range of aspirants including many mutants and abhuman strains. From this army of "Eaters of the Dead" that was kept at arm's length by the rest of the Imperium, Sanguinius raised them up into a coherent fighting force, perhaps the single most potent one in the eyes of Horus himself. And beyond that, Sanguinius instilled in each BA a sense of personal worth and self-confidence; a combo of martial pride to engender both unity of purpose and individual prowess and humanistic value. As if that's not enough, the psychic and genetic bond Sanguinius had with his sons was unmatched by the other Legions. Oh and 80% of the Legion was sent to Signus Prime where they were further bonded to each other and their genesire through that shared betrayal and baptism by (hell)fire. If they survived...

 

...put that all together and it would have to take a serious something for a Blood Angel to turn against his brethren. 

 

 

Again, not to trample your idea, but how I would tweak it:

Hidden Content

The Traitor BA:

1. know about their genetic flaw

2. feel their dad is not taking it seriously enough

3. feel particularly comfortable/bonded with Horus, in a reflection of the deep bond between Horus and Sanguinius

4. via 3 they come to know both what happened on Prospero and designs for Signus Prime

5. are deceived into thinking that Signus Prime is essentially an isolation move rather than an annihilation move

6. ...feel that Signus Prime is for the best as it will isolate Sanguinius/the bulk of the Legion while Horus can remove the Emperor and thus find a cure for them

 

Essentially, they think the best way to deal with dad's problem is to lock him in the basement to give uncle joe time to stage a proper intervention. 

 

 

...or of course there's the classic "we liked our Legion better before our Primarch showed up, Horus promises to turn back the clock" motif. Aka the Traitor Raven Guard way. 

 

Again, I want to emphasize that I'm not trying to overshadow or bang on your ideas, but rather refine them to make them a bit more plausible given that one of the community's chief complaints about the HH series as a whole is how implausible many core decisions are. Aka. Horus had a single bad dream on Davin and that set off the entire thing. 

Edited December 29, 2021 by Indefragable

[WrathOfTheLion]

I could see some other reasons, like maybe some of the Destroyer squads or organizations dealing with all of that are isolated in some Legions or treated with general disdain, allowing them to feel distant. I could see some sort of traitor Salamanders that way.

 

Or perhaps there's a transition of blackshield to traitor. Especially later on in the heresy, perhaps a band that started out deserting ends up having to align with Chaos out of desperation in some way. Maybe they come across some Xenos, and would be wiped out except a bargain is brought to them now that they're isolated and have nowhere to turn.

 

This is a concept that I think could work. Instead of creating a rationalization of why they would want to make that choice, craft the scenario where they don't have a choice anymore.

Edited December 29, 2021 by WrathOfTheLion

[Catullus]

Re traitor members of the loyal legions...

 

For the Iron Hands, I'd play up the camaraderie and connections to the IIIrd, with lodge membership and the embrace of the perfection of the machine standing in conflict with Ferrus Manus' rejection (and pending censure) of that interpretation of doctrine. Placing Fulgrim-as-deliverer right as the ruling caste of the legion are wiped out on Is(s)tva(a)n, I think there's some grist for the story-mill there.

[Paradigm]

I’ve seen a traitor white scars force. They used a lot of Sons of Horus bits and it came across a bit too Luna Wolves because of it. But it was well painted, and there are pictures of it floating around online I think. It’s about seven years or so old at this point.

 

I think people instead go the Blackshields route when traitors from loyalist legions pop up on the tabletop. I’ve seen several Raven Guard traitor war bands ran as Blackshields, but those are really about it.

 

The problem with traitors from the loyalist legions is that nobody knows what they look like, at least beyond a few color plates in the black books. Loyalists from traitor legions just look like their uncorrupted traitor brethren for the most part. But a traitor ultramarine or iron hand? It’s harder to do an army mostly from scratch yet so adjacent to canon and risk having it invalidated, especially when you have to both meticulously research the background, and use the creative process. It’s a challenging hobby as it is, and adding more challenge is a bit daunting.

 

Where I’m at, the only legions I never see are Emperors Children, and Ultramarines. I’ve seen very few 13th legion armies even online, fewer than any other faction by a significant margin. I know they are out there, sure. But I think it seems rare to me due to the nature of 30k attracting people that aren’t as enamored with the 40k ultras forward vibes.

Edited January 1, 2022 by Paradigm

[Catullus]

Loyalists from traitor legions just look like their uncorrupted traitor brethren for the most part. But a traitor ultramarine or iron hand?

For the latter, I'd start by replacing the clan iconography with the Horus-adjacent eye of vigilance and possibly sub out the legion insignia for something like the classical gorgon's head..?

[samerandomhero]

I’ve seen a traitor white scars force. They used a lot of Sons of Horus bits and it came across a bit too Luna Wolves because of it. But it was well painted, and there are pictures of it floating around online I think. It’s about seven years or so old at this point.

 

I think people instead go the Blackshields route when traitors from loyalist legions pop up on the tabletop. I’ve seen several Raven Guard traitor war bands ran as Blackshields, but those are really about it.

 

The problem with traitors from the loyalist legions is that nobody knows what they look like, at least beyond a few color plates in the black books. Loyalists from traitor legions just look like their uncorrupted traitor brethren for the most part. But a traitor ultramarine or iron hand? It’s harder to do an army mostly from scratch yet so adjacent to canon and risk having it invalidated, especially when you have to both meticulously research the background, and use the creative process. It’s a challenging hobby as it is, and adding more challenge is a bit daunting.

 

Where I’m at, the only legions I never see are Emperors Children, and Ultramarines. I’ve seen very few 13th legion armies even online, fewer than any other faction by a significant margin. I know they are out there, sure. But I think it seems rare to me due to the nature of 30k attracting people that aren’t as enamored with the 40k ultras forward vibes.

 

Its funny how few ultra 30k armies I see, even online, given the rules are not bad and the models look ace.  they even still get special rules like their breachers can have power swords and their master of signal can take a command rhino as a dedicated transport. more times than once have I had to stop myself from starting a 13th legion HH force. Those breachers all rocking power swords would look so cool.... 

[Gorgoff]

I’ve seen a traitor white scars force. They used a lot of Sons of Horus bits and it came across a bit too Luna Wolves because of it. But it was well painted, and there are pictures of it floating around online I think. It’s about seven years or so old at this point.

 

I think people instead go the Blackshields route when traitors from loyalist legions pop up on the tabletop. I’ve seen several Raven Guard traitor war bands ran as Blackshields, but those are really about it.

 

The problem with traitors from the loyalist legions is that nobody knows what they look like, at least beyond a few color plates in the black books. Loyalists from traitor legions just look like their uncorrupted traitor brethren for the most part. But a traitor ultramarine or iron hand? It’s harder to do an army mostly from scratch yet so adjacent to canon and risk having it invalidated, especially when you have to both meticulously research the background, and use the creative process. It’s a challenging hobby as it is, and adding more challenge is a bit daunting.

 

Where I’m at, the only legions I never see are Emperors Children, and Ultramarines. I’ve seen very few 13th legion armies even online, fewer than any other faction by a significant margin. I know they are out there, sure. But I think it seems rare to me due to the nature of 30k attracting people that aren’t as enamored with the 40k ultras forward vibes.

I know two UM players and EC are one of the most played armies in the circle of players I know. Funny how different this seems to be where you life.

[Gamiel]

Re. traitors from loyalist legions, one easy way is to go the Iron Warrior rot: they are part of a force put in a position of garrison duty which may be highly important and their presence is what have discouraged many attacks or the spark of rebellion but for them it feels like they have been cast aside while their brethren and primarch reap glory. And then somebody representing Lorgar or Horus appear and begin to stroke this resentment, and then offers them a chance for glory and revenge themselves on the Legion/Empire they feel have betrayed them. Alt. the same premise but an explorer fleet that found little in the way of glory or vorthy enemies. 

 

The problem with traitors from the loyalist legions is that nobody knows what they look like, at least beyond a few color plates in the black books. Loyalists from traitor legions just look like their uncorrupted traitor brethren for the most part. But a traitor ultramarine or iron hand?

Maybe:

- Go back to their pre-Primarch colour sheme

- Paint over their Legion symbol with the Eye of Horus/similar

- Show that they have thrown away the Imperium's rules by giving them xeno or esoteric weapons 

- have them bearing grisly trophies

- use CSM parts, even if you remove/don't use any parts with mutations or Chaos stars will they stil look different compared with normal marines in the same colours

[Mogsam]

Garrison forces seem like the best excuse to have begrudged troops to me. Primarch doesn't like you, primarch sends you to garrison a crap planet, forgets all about you.

[Gamiel]

You don't even need for the Primach to dislike them or meaning to make them feel unwanted, just that they belive that it's so

[Paradigm]

@Random: yeah it is kind of ironic. I also really like them in the 30k setting.

 

@Gorgoff: The most common I see here are probably either Iron Warriors, or maybe Thousand Sons, but it wouldn’t be by a wide margin. Lots of IH, RG, NL, Salamanders, and Blood Angels too. I used to own a store north of Seattle and saw a gazillion armies come through, but I’m sure that I just plain missed some, and also didn’t run across some as well, by dumb luck.

 

As traitors from loyalist legions go, I didn’t mean I was trying to sort it out, but I do love the suggestions! You all have some great ideas! I just meant it’s a harder path to tread, and a lot of folks that head in their direction end up with Blackshields from my experience.

 

I’d love to see traitor iron hands, traitor ultras, and traitor Imperial Fists. I think it could all look awesome on the tabletop. I always thought about forces that went rogue not because of love or hate for one leader or another, but because they had an obligation to brethren in another legion, and felt their honor and oath to their brothers in arms meant more than their oath to primarchs emperor or war master. If you fight alongside someone long enough you end up fighting for each other, your leadership “exists,” but your brothers are there.

Edited January 9, 2022 by Paradigm

[Gamiel]

Re. traitors from loyalist legions, one easy way is to go the Iron Warrior rot: they are part of a force put in a position of garrison duty which may be highly important and their presence is what have discouraged many attacks or the spark of rebellion but for them it feels like they have been cast aside while their brethren and primarch reap glory. And then somebody representing Lorgar or Horus appear and begin to stroke this resentment, and then offers them a chance for glory and revenge themselves on the Legion/Empire they feel have betrayed them. Alt. the same premise but an explorer fleet that found little in the way of glory or vorthy enemies. 

- They believe themself betrayed for some reason, and the traitors are the ones they see as showing them the light or came to their rescue when their fellow loyalist did not (this from their perspective, if you ask the loyalist proper they may have another version).

- They were part of a united force togheter with one of the Traitor Legions' forces, that was part of a explorer-fleet/similar and during that time they did things they feel ashamed for and feel it easier to just side with the Traitors (who has no problem with that they have done) than return to their Legion and admit what they have done.

- they are old guards and non-[Primarch's homeworld] recruits (maybe from a bastion force or an explorer force) that don't like what their Primarch and/or the Emperor is doing to their Legion and belive that Horus will return things to how they were.

- in deep danger, and believed lost to the Legion, they made pacts with things the Imperial Truth deny exist, those new allies/masters have told them to fight alongside Horus forces

- they were fighting alongside the Word Bearers and the WB was able to turn them into the worship of the Chaos gods (those that was not turned was likley killed off)

- they belive that their Primarch will side/have sided with Horus and are only doing his will by fighting alongside fellow Horus sworn

- they are not real traitors-from-Lolalist-Legion but Alpha Legion marines pretending to be.

 

 

 

The problem with traitors from the loyalist legions is that nobody knows what they look like, at least beyond a few color plates in the black books. Loyalists from traitor legions just look like their uncorrupted traitor brethren for the most part. But a traitor ultramarine or iron hand?

Maybe:

- Go back to their pre-Primarch colour sheme

- Paint over their Legion symbol with the Eye of Horus/similar

- Show that they have thrown away the Imperium's rules by giving them xeno or esoteric weapons 

- have them bearing grisly trophies

- use CSM parts, even if you remove/don't use any parts with mutations or Chaos stars will they stil look different compared with normal marines in the same colours

- have them invert their Legion's colour sheme

- have their symbol scratched off and their armour coverd in scratshed and repairs that have not been covered with fresh paint (showing that they no longer have respect for their old colours)

- maybe they are on the way to fall to one of the Chaos gods (or greater unaligned deamons) and that have begun to show in how they have begun to paint their armour and how they pic their wargear

- they have begun to give their armour "rad" decorations that is not common among their loyal brethrens (was thinking symbols and pattern that are classic teenage/rebellion, those that you find on cars or jackets, ex. flames, skull-n-crossbones, graffiti, the anarchy A, etc.)

[Scoopslayer]

It's definitely Luna wolves. Of course if you're going by exclusively lore accurate legions, It's probably Salamanders. They don't really have any appeal in the heresy because they aren't much different except for the trademark heresy realism. Every other legion has some big trait that makes them unique and interesting, like how the Ultramarines actually look like romans and not blueberry larplords. The fists have their minor scheme change along with the executioners and templars being mixed in (not forgetting that they're actual fists and not successor soup). The Salamanders just don't have the uniqueness, anyone choosing salamanders would just go to 40k where they can have pyreblasters and fight xenos.