Suisei Samurai

[Gamiel]

The Suisei Samurai

Colour: Blue with red aquila/imperialis, pauldrons (including trim), elbow-guards and hands. Red is also the overall spot colour. Show squads with Japanese numbers on the right knee.

Symbol: A white radiant sun with a black dot in the middle, usually on red 

Gene-seed origin: Imperial Fist

Founding: Belived to be of the Fifth 

Chapter-Master: Nozaki

Homeworld: Suisei [γ-class], a tidal locked planet which surface is inhospitable but have a planet spanning cave network which have been terraformed in ancient ages past.  The Chapter is theoretically the direct rulers of the planet but they delegate much of it to the non-transhumans.

 

The Suisei Samurai is a mostly Codex following Chapter. Among the way the ignore the tenets of the Codex are in the use of Honour-weapons, the units Weaponmaster and Deathless, and that they often work together with Suisei’s Astra Militarum regiment, the Suisei Ashigaru, as advisors to the regiment officers and using the guardsmen as support to the Space Marine.

 

Deathless, dishonoured marines that are on death quests to redeem themselves by sacrificing themselves for the good of the Chapter. Are used for suicide missions. Their armour is painted white. A handful of times Deathless have been able to regain their honour and surviving, in those cases they are taken back into the Chapter, either in their old role or in a new position.

 

Weaponmaster are a rank within the Chapter, they are a special rank within the Chapter’s tech-marines that are masters of the creation and use of personal weapons. When a neophyte rises from the 10th company into the ranks of full Space Marines he spend time with Weaponmaster, showing of his skills, testing different weapons, discussing the ex-neophyte’s thoughts about many different subjects, at the end of this meeting (which usually last a day or two, even if some are shorter than that, while other have lasted over a week) the Weaponmaster gives the new Astartes a fine crafted weapon that will be his Honour-weapon.

 

The Honour-weapon is usually a bolter, boltergun, chainweapon, combat knife, or similar standard Astartes main- or sidearm, but it can also be more specialised weapons like a sniper rifle, rocket launcher, two-handed swords, power weapons, or other more unusual Astartes weapons. A battle-brother is expected to work to master his Honour-weapon, take good care of it and always taking it with him on duty, even if it don’t fit his current role. If a battle-brother loses his Honour-weapon he is expected to go on a quest to get it back and slay the enemy that took it from him. If a Honour-weapon is destroyed the battle-brother is expected to collect the weapons remains, go on a quest to slay the enemy that destroyed it (if the enemy remain alive), followed by a season with the Weapon-master where the battle-brother and the Weapon-master go through how the destruction happened, see what’s left of the Honour-weapon, and go through a similar process as before the battle-brother was given the Honour-weapon. This is usually followed by a reforging/making of the Honour-weapon, but sometime the Weapon-master gives the battle-brother a quest to fulfil before remaking the Honour-weapon, and in a few instances it is declared that the battle-brother was fully at fault for his Honour-weapon’s destruction and is declared a Deathless, his Honour-weapon only remade ones he has regained his honour by his own death.

 

The Suisei Samurai specialise in take and hold actions, where they take an area and hold it until reinforcement comes - are known to hold an area no matter their loses, until either reinforcement comes or they all die. They usually work together with the Imperial Guard for this. This do not mean they are willing to foolishly throw away their lives for impossible missions, any such sacrifice is a tactical decision where they are certain that reinforcement can come within the time they can hold the area, even if means all of them have to die for victory.

 

As part of their aspirant and neophyte training are they not just trained in the arts of war and personal combat but also given basic training in cultural arts like penmanship, poetry, painting, woodcarving, gardening, and is expected to continue with at least penmanship and one more of the cultural arts after becoming full Space Marines.

 

The Chapter have a well-developed information network with informants (both open and shadowed) on all near planets, all the important planets in the sector, and among the interstellar organisations within it. Those informants don’t only report on possible threats or rising feelings of rebellion, but also on any kind of newfound technology, political developments, and similar that the Chapter could find of interest. This has made them skilled player within the sector’s political games and knowing what kind of things that may be of use for future conflicts. They also share much of the information about newfound technology and modifications with their artisans and fabricators, making it so that Suisei are producing technology that some people would have preferred monopoly on.

 

 

Homeworld: Suisei

Suisei is a γ-class (imperial world) tidal locked planet which surface is inhospitable but have a planet spanning cave network which have been terraformed in ancient ages past.

 

The caves and caverns come in many different sizes, many large enough that you could park a void ship in them. Most larger caves are, thanks to the miracles of ancient technology, somehow mimicking a environment you can find on the surface of human compatible worlds. Some of them even have seasons. The natives just accept this as normal, and if Suisei’s tech-priests know more than just how to keep the systems working, they keep it to themselves.

 

The population is socially divided into workers, administrators, small business owners, and soldiers – your social position is not set in stone and it is not unusual that people change their social belonging during their lifetime if they strive for it, or make it possible for their child to do it. Personal automobiles are rare, people get around with bike, tram and train – smaller trucks are used for transportation of varies. Radio is the main mass-media (there are many different channels with different focus, all fully state controlled). The larger cities are all connected with bullet trains. Many of the cavern are partially waterfilled and there are many boats and ships travelling those areas.

 

Suisei have their own Planetary Defence Force made up by people from the warrior class, with the PDF’s elite and higher officers being returned veterans from the Suisei Ashigaru IG regiment, which in turn recruit from the PDF. The PDF are led by the Master of the Keep, who delegate most of the leadership to non-transhuman officers, and the troops train together with members  of the Suisei Samurai, not every trooper have personally worked under a Marine but they have all seen and heard them and know how to work under them without the problems that humans unfamiliar with astartes can show.

 

Recruitment of aspirants are done throught great games for boys in every area, where they compete in physical and mental contests. Those that show themself most worthy get to continue to the next level where they are gene-tested, mentally probed and if they pass become aspirants.

Edited December 1, 2021 by Gamiel

[Bjorn Firewalker]

Again, you demonstrate excellent imagination, Gamiel.

Symbol: Any suggestions?

As "suisei" is the Japanese word for "comet" (literal translation, "broom star," due to the comet tail's appearance), the obvious answer is a comet. Maybe combine a crossed daisho (a samurai's two swords) with a comet tail?

Homeworld: Suisei, a tidal locked planet which surface is inhospitable but have a planet spanning cave network which have been terraformed in ancient ages past.

As noted, "suisei" literally means "broom star," so I have to ask why the planet was named as such. Does solar radiation blow dust from the planet's airless surface, making it resemble a broom when viewed from space? Or were the first colonists weebs (look up the term "weeaboo" on 4chan, if you dare), who named the planet after the Japanese term for "comet," without knowing what it meant?

 

And why would such a planet be colonized? Was it a mining colony, intended to exploit a rare and valuable mineral's presence? Were the first colonists the losers of a great and terrible war, and who chose Suisei as their new home, reasoning their enemies wouldn't go through the bother of exterminating them, if their new home was so inhospitable?

Among the way the ignore the tenets of the Codex are in the use of Honour-weapons, the units Weaponmaster and Deathless, and that they often work together with Suisei’s Astra Militarum regiment

The Munitorum, which supervises the Astra Militarum, recognizes all Chapter planets as "Adeptus Non," meaning none of its human inhabitants will be tithed to Astra Militarum regiments. The ashigaru would thus count as a planetary defense force, or maybe auxiliaries under the Suisei Samurai's direct command, comparable to the Ultramar Auxilia.

Deathless, dishonoured marines that are on death quests to redeem themselves by sacrificing themselves for the good of the Chapter. Are used for suicide missions. Their armour is painted white. A handful of times Deathless have been able to regain their honour and surviving, in those cases they are taken back into the Chapter, either in their old role or in a new position.

Excellent idea. I'm glad you remembered Asian cultures use the color white to represent death, instead of black.

 

By the way, how do Apothecaries identify themselves, if white is used to represent the Deathless? Do Suisei Samurai specialists (Chaplains, Librarians, and Techmarines, in addition to Apothecaries) ID themselves via pauldron colors, instead of painting their entire suits in new colors, as the Codex mandates? Or do Suisei Samurai Apothecaries wear yellow armor instead of white, to honor the Imperial Fists from which the Chapter is descended?

Edited October 31, 2021 by Bjorn Firewalker

[Gamiel]

Again, you demonstrate excellent imagination, Gamiel.

 

Thank you.

 

As noted, "suisei" literally means "broom star," so I have to ask why the planet was named as such.

It's also the Japanese name for Mercury, and I have to admit that the Suisei Samurai are in many ways a wink to Mutant Chronicles' Mishima faction, who have Mercury as their main base, therefor the name.

 

 And why would such a planet be colonized?

Nobody knows, it's lost to history. Oldest known mention of the planet has it as already terraformed and coloniced

 

The Munitorum, which supervises the Astra Militarum, recognizes all Chapter planets as "Adeptus Non," meaning none of its human inhabitants will be tithed to Astra Militarum regiments. The ashigaru would thus count as a planetary defense force, or maybe auxiliaries under the Suisei Samurai's direct command, comparable to the Ultramar Auxilia.

 

To my understanding so do a Chapter world not send any tithed but still can. In the case of Suisei they do have IG regiments, this is likley as a way for the planet's military to constantly have true veterans and for the Samurais to have an IG force they can trust and know will follow orders "tactical advice".

 

 

By the way, how do Apothecaries identify themselves, if white is used to represent the Deathless? Do Suisei Samurai specialists (Chaplains, Librarians, and Techmarines, in addition to Apothecaries) ID themselves via pauldron colors, instead of painting their entire suits in new colors, as the Codex mandates? Or do Suisei Samurai Apothecaries wear yellow armor instead of white, to honor the Imperial Fists from which the Chapter is descended?

Admit that I have not thought about it.

Edited October 31, 2021 by Gamiel

[Bjorn Firewalker]

 

As noted, "suisei" literally means "broom star," so I have to ask why the planet was named as such.

It's also the Japanese name for Mercury, and I have to admit that the Suisei Samurai are in many ways a wink to Mutant Chronicles' Mishima faction, who have Mercury as their main base, therefor the name.

The Japanese word for "Mercury" literally means "Water Star"- "star" being a generic term for celestial bodies, including planets- as it's named after the classical element. (FYI, Asians recognize five classical elements instead of four: water, fire, earth, wood, metal. Venus is "Metal Star," Mars is "Fire Star," Jupiter is "Wood Star," Saturn is "Earth Star.")

 

If you want to use Asian names, you have to consider the meaning of each character in the name.

Edited October 31, 2021 by Bjorn Firewalker

[Gamiel]

Chapter symbol suggestions:

+ The astronomical symbol for Mercury – nothing really with the Chapter to do but could be seen as a reference to that their planet is named for one of the ancient names of Mercury.

+ The astronomical symbol for Mercury surrounded by sunrays – as above and symbolling that Suisei is close to the sun.

+ A radiant sun with a black dot in the middle - symbolling that Suisei is close to the sun, and the appearance of their homeworld when you travel toward it from space.

+ A Japanese wave mon – referring to that Suisei means, when written with the signs used for Mercury, “water star”

 

 

Which one/s do people think sound best? Or do you have other suggestions?

[Bjorn Firewalker]

A Japanese wave mon – referring to that Suisei means, when written with the signs used for Mercury, “water star”

This sounds best, in my opinion. But why is the planet named "Water Star"? Did Suisei's first colonists dig the tunnels their descendants now inhabit, because the planet has an icy core (see Mars in the 1990 film Total Recall), which they mined for resources needed elsewhere? Or was it named in memory of their original homeworld- one with raging seas- which they were driven from when they lost a war?

 

By the way, as a tunnel's close confines prevent a swordsman from properly swinging a sword, I predict Suisei's warriors favor chokuto (lit. "straight sword") over katana; the chokuto's straight blade is optimized for stabs and thrusts, while a katana's curved blade is optimized for swings and slashes.

Edited November 3, 2021 by Bjorn Firewalker

[Gamiel]

 

A Japanese wave mon – referring to that Suisei means, when written with the signs used for Mercury, “water star”

This sounds best, in my opinion. But why is the planet named "Water Star"? Did Suisei's first colonists dig the tunnels their descendants now inhabit, because the planet has an icy core (see Mars in the 1990 film Total Recall), which they mined for resources needed elsewhere? Or was it named in memory of their original homeworld- one with raging seas- which they were driven from when they lost a war?

Nobody knows, it's lost to history. Oldest known mention of the planet has it as already under that name. Possibly did the people that originally named it think that it resembeled Sol's Mercury and gave it a name based on that.

 

By the way, as a tunnel's close confines prevent a swordsman from properly swinging a sword, I predict Suisei's warriors favor chokuto (lit. "straight sword") over katana; the chokuto's straight blade is optimized for stabs and thrusts, while a katana's curved blade is optimized for swings and slashes.

I was actually not thining of giving them any notalby different equipment from the standard marines (ignoring some Honour-weapons, but those are personal) - like how many of the chapter's with "knights" as part of their name are not different in their equipment from other chapters. 

Edited November 3, 2021 by Gamiel

[Bjorn Firewalker]

The reason may be "lost to history," but it WILL have an influence on those who live there. Are Suisei's people fearful, running and hiding whenever strangers appear? Are they defensive but bellicose, answering perceived insults with challenges to a duel? Are they studious and industrious, as expected of those living in a mining world?

 

What kind of people do you want the samurai to rule over and recruit from?

[Gamiel]

The reason may be "lost to history," but it WILL have an influence on those who live there.

Will have to disagree, things can really change over thousand of years.

 

What kind of people do you want the samurai to rule over and recruit from?

I think it would be a γ-class world, recruitment would likely be something like great games for boys in every area, where they compete in physical and mental contests. Those that show themself most worthy get to continue to the next level where they are gene-tested, mentally probed and if they pass become aspirants.

Edited November 3, 2021 by Gamiel

[Gamiel]

Chapter symbol suggestions:

+ The astronomical symbol for Mercury – nothing really with the Chapter to do but could be seen as a reference to that their planet is named for one of the ancient names of Mercury.

+ The astronomical symbol for Mercury surrounded by sunrays – as above and symbolling that Suisei is close to the sun.

+ A radiant sun with a black dot in the middle - symbolling that Suisei is close to the sun, and the appearance of their homeworld when you travel toward it from space.

+ A Japanese wave mon – referring to that Suisei means, when written with the signs used for Mercury, “water star”

I think I will go with a white radiant sun with a black dot in the middle. Mostly because it feels like something that people can pull of painting without having to be higher level painters.

 

They show their squad belonging by Japanese numbers on their right knee.

[Minigiant]

 

Homeworld: Suisei [γ-class], a tidal locked planet which surface is inhospitable but have a planet spanning cave network which have been terraformed in ancient ages past. The Chapter is theoretically the direct rulers of the planet but they delegate much of it to the non-transhumans.

Do you really need to be tidal locked and be called Suisei AKA Mercury, which is a tidal locked planet. It is a little bit too obvious

 

The Suisei Samurai is a mostly Codex following Chapter.

Now this has been my held opinion for a while so I will only say it once not to detract from the IA itself. The words 'Suisei' and 'Samurai' fall into a category I can most aptly describe as Disociated 40k Vocabulary, what I mean by that is that the words have not etymological connection to already established 40k lore, making them disconnected from the universe they are trying to be seamlessly written into. In addition to that, 'Samurai' has so many additional connotations that make them almost jarring. There are words that I can associate between Samurai and 40k; Swords, Blades etc. Pair that with a 40k equivalent for Suisei, and you get something like Star Blades

 

 

they often work together with Suisei’s Astra Militarum regiment, the Suisei Ashigaru.

 

Homeworlds are usually reserved solely for Chapter serfs. Forces at be do not look kindly at an IG regiment being closely tied to an Astartes Chapter...division of labour and all that. That said there are homeworlds that raise well respected PDF forces like Ultramar.

 

The second argument that seems contradictory at times is Astartes homeworlds do not pay tithes but, I remember one of the Blood Ravens recruitment pools doing that

 

 

Weaponmaster are a rank within the Chapter, they are a special rank within the Chapter’s tech-marines that are masters of the creation and use of personal weapons. When a neophyte rises from the 10th company into the ranks of full Space Marines he spend time with Weaponmaster, showing of his skills, testing different weapons, discussing the ex-neophyte’s thoughts about many different subjects, at the end of this meeting (which usually last a day or two, even if some are shorter than that, while other have lasted over a week) the Weaponmaster gives the new Astartes a fine crafted weapon that will be his Honour-weapon.

The term 'Weaponmaster' I think would be better to use a title for a Techmarine; again to tie it into already established 40k lore. 'Master of Blades' 'Artisan of Death' type of things. As Prognosticators (Silver Skulls) fill the roll of Librarian and Chaplaincy. Should the "Artisans of Death" fill both the roll of Techmarine and Chaplaincy? Iron Hand successors?

 

As part of their aspirant and neophyte training are they not just trained in the arts of war and personal combat but also given basic training in cultural arts like penmanship, poetry, painting, woodcarving, gardening, and is expected to continue with at least penmanship and one more of the cultural arts after becoming full Space Marines.

I personally always find this, and I dislike using the word again, jarring. I understand the connotations that original samurai would do these things as part their desire to balance military strength with cultural pursuits. I have not thought of a 40kifying alternative. My best idea (and that doesn't mean it is good) is them writing their own prayers

 

The Chapter have a well-developed information network with informants (both open and shadowed) on all near planets, all the important planets in the sector, and among the interstellar organisations within it. Those informants don’t only report on possible threats or rising feelings of rebellion, but also on any kind of newfound technology, political developments, and similar that the Chapter could find of interest.

Again this ties into the Imperiums desire for the separation of powers. I am not saying they would not care about their sector but I think it needs to be framed differently. "The Suisei Samurai have over their long illustrious existence earned a reputation in the X system, regularly responding to calls for aid and assistance whenever they can.

 

 

This has made them skilled player within the sector’s political games and knowing what kind of things that may be of use for future conflicts.

Space Marines do not do subtle unless absolutely necessary. If a Chapter Master tells a Governor to Stop doing something, that will usually stop happening. Political Games I would consider falling into the same trap as "Navy Seal Marines", why be anything other than a hammer when everything to you has been made a nail to you. I hate pointing to IAs I have written but if you really want the social web, perhaps take inspiration from the Navigator House I wrote up for the Praedicators Edited November 29, 2021 by Minigiant

[Gamiel]

 

Homeworld: Suisei [γ-class], a tidal locked planet which surface is inhospitable but have a planet spanning cave network which have been terraformed in ancient ages past.  The Chapter is theoretically the direct rulers of the planet but they delegate much of it to the non-transhumans.

Do you really need to be tidal locked and be called Suisei AKA Mercury, which is a tidal locked planet. It is a little bit too obvious

My idea is that the now forgotten discoverers actually named the planet after realising that it was very similar to Mercury and gave it one of the other names for Mercury because of that 

 

 

 

The Suisei Samurai is a mostly Codex following Chapter.

Now this has been my held opinion for a while so I will only say it once not to detract from the IA itself. The words 'Suisei' and 'Samurai' fall into a category I can most aptly describe as Disociated 40k Vocabulary, what I mean by that is that the words have not etymological connection to already established 40k lore, making them disconnected from the universe they are trying to be seamlessly written into. In addition to that, 'Samurai' has so many additional connotations that make them almost jarring. There are words that I can associate between Samurai and 40k; Swords, Blades etc. Pair that with a 40k equivalent for Suisei, and you get something like Star Blades

When it comes to samurai don't I really see the problem, we already have lots of other warrior groups represented in the names of Chapters and IG regiments, and many of the Chapters with something like that in their name don't really seems to fit that name that much (f.ex. the Knights of Byzantium don't seems to have anything knight-ish about them). Andd while the  Suisei Samurai have some samurai elements they don't have any daishos or tradition of ritual suicide (ignoring the Deathless). 

 

The Suisei is a reference to their homeworld, just like the Knights of Byzantium are named after their homeworld of Byzantium.

 

 The second argument that seems contradictory at times is Astartes homeworlds do not pay tithes but, I remember one of the Blood Ravens recruitment pools doing that

I think it's a question of Chapter world's not needing to pay tithes but they can if they want to. And the Suisei Samurai want to send out IG regiments.

 

 The term 'Weaponmaster' I think would be better to use a title for an Apothecary; again to tie it into already established 40k lore. 'Master of Blades' 'Artisan of Death' type of things. As Prognosticators (Silver Skulls) fill the roll of Librarian and Chaplaincy. Should the "Artisans of Death" fill both the roll of Techmarine and Chaplaincy? Iron Hand successors?

I don't follow you here. The Weaponmaster have a duty to find the right user for the right honour-weapon, and often creat new honour-weapons or repair the ones that have been damaged, why should that possition be for an Apothecary?

 

 I personally always find this, and I dislike using the word again, jarring. I understand the connotations that original samurai would do these things as part their desire to balance military strength with cultural pursuits. I have not thought of a 40kifying alternative. My best idea (and that doesn't mean it is good) is them writing their own prayers

It's also a reference to that most chapters have side hobbies beside just making war. Maybe I should ad scrimshawing as a nood to one of the IF's hobbies...

 

 

 

Again this ties into the Imperiums desire for the separation of powers. I am not saying they would not care about their sector but I think it needs to be framed differently. "The Suisei Samurai have over their long illustrious existence earned a reputation in the X system, regularly responding to calls for aid and assistance whenever they can.

It's a spy network. They want to be on top of things, and they also want to get new things for their factories to create if they are of interest. Would they be censored for this if a puritan Inquisitor found out about it? Possibly, but I don't think there is anywhere in the codex that forbid having a information network. They might be censored for creating some patterns of technology without the AdMech's permission for that pattern, but then again many worlds are committing that minor tech heresy and it's not something most people care about, and the tech-priest on Suisei don't seem to have any problem with it...

 

 Space Marines do not do subtle unless absolutely necessary. 

I take it you have not heard about the Raven Guards, Alpha Legion, and some later founding Chapters....

 

If a Chapter Master tells a Governor to Stop doing something, that will usually stop happening. Political Games I would consider falling into the same trap as "Navy Seal Marines", why be anything other than a hammer when everything to you has been made a nail to you. I hate pointing to IAs I have written but if you really want the social web, perhaps take inspiration from the Navigator House I wrote up for the Praedicators

What's "Navy Seal Marines"? 

 

Also, you sometime don't want to just tell somebody to "stop" but to do it in such a way that they don't resent you for doing it, or just want to push things a little toward the way you want not force it, or want to know that the planetary governor is not the one you should be talking about but his children. And if you can also get what you want with subtility you don’t need to worry about somebody complaining  about you overstretching your allowed power.

 

The idea is that the Chapter and their homeworld are a trading politicing part of it's subsector, unlike many other Chapters who fully keep to themself. 

[Minigiant]

 

 

Homeworld: Suisei [γ-class], a tidal locked planet which surface is inhospitable but have a planet spanning cave network which have been terraformed in ancient ages past.  The Chapter is theoretically the direct rulers of the planet but they delegate much of it to the non-transhumans.

Do you really need to be tidal locked and be called Suisei AKA Mercury, which is a tidal locked planet. It is a little bit too obvious

My idea is that the now forgotten discoverers actually named the planet after realising that it was very similar to Mercury and gave it one of the other names for Mercury because of that 

 

 

I think it needs way more massaging to get it to fit than what you are doing now, and ultimately what does it add to your chapter? The classic questions; so what? why should the reader care?

 

 

The Suisei Samurai is a mostly Codex following Chapter.

Now this has been my held opinion for a while so I will only say it once not to detract from the IA itself. The words 'Suisei' and 'Samurai' fall into a category I can most aptly describe as Disociated 40k Vocabulary, what I mean by that is that the words have not etymological connection to already established 40k lore, making them disconnected from the universe they are trying to be seamlessly written into. In addition to that, 'Samurai' has so many additional connotations that make them almost jarring. There are words that I can associate between Samurai and 40k; Swords, Blades etc. Pair that with a 40k equivalent for Suisei, and you get something like Star Blades

When it comes to samurai don't I really see the problem, we already have lots of other warrior groups represented in the names of Chapters and IG regiments, and many of the Chapters with something like that in their name don't really seems to fit that name that much (f.ex. the Knights of Byzantium don't seems to have anything knight-ish about them). Andd while the  Suisei Samurai have some samurai elements they don't have any daishos or tradition of ritual suicide (ignoring the Deathless). 

 

The Suisei is a reference to their homeworld, just like the Knights of Byzantium are named after their homeworld of Byzantium

 

The big difference between Suisei and Byzantium is the later has etymological routes in greek and latin as does 99% of 40k lore. If they are that 1% then that should be the only thing that distinguishes them, and everything should stem from that, At the moment it just reads like 'I wanted a Red Sun'

 

A similar principle applies to Knight and Samurai. The White Scars are not called 'Uls Mongols' there theme is heavily massaged to fit into the predominantly western focused lore.

 

 

 The term 'Weaponmaster' I think would be better to use a title for an Apothecary; again to tie it into already established 40k lore. 'Master of Blades' 'Artisan of Death' type of things. As Prognosticators (Silver Skulls) fill the roll of Librarian and Chaplaincy. Should the "Artisans of Death" fill both the roll of Techmarine and Chaplaincy? Iron Hand successors?

I don't follow you here. The Weaponmaster have a duty to find the right user for the right honour-weapon, and often creat new honour-weapons or repair the ones that have been damaged, why should that possition be for an Apothecary

 

 

 

I wrote Apothecary and then wrote Techmarine in the examples, I meant Techmarine for both. No idea why I wrote Apothecary

 

 

 Space Marines do not do subtle unless absolutely necessary. 

I take it you have not heard about the Raven Guards, Alpha Legion, and some later founding Chapters...

 

 

Raven Guard and Alpha Legion are not subtle. Alpha Legion are so good at Subterfuge that they practically do not exist.

Raven Guard take Infiltration up to 11 and then smash the enemy in the face. They do not remain silent

 

 

 

If a Chapter Master tells a Governor to Stop doing something, that will usually stop happening. Political Games I would consider falling into the same trap as "Navy Seal Marines", why be anything other than a hammer when everything to you has been made a nail to you. I hate pointing to IAs I have written but if you really want the social web, perhaps take inspiration from the Navigator House I wrote up for the Praedicators

What's "Navy Seal Marines"? 

 

Also, you sometime don't want to just tell somebody to "stop" but to do it in such a way that they don't resent you for doing it, or just want to push things a little toward the way you want not force it, or want to know that the planetary governor is not the one you should be talking about but his children. And if you can also get what you want with subtility you don’t need to worry about somebody complaining  about you overstretching your allowed power.

 

The idea is that the Chapter and their homeworld are a trading politicing part of it's subsector, unlike many other Chapters who fully keep to themself. 

 

 

Navy Seal Marine are the chapters that people try to write treating Space Marines as special forces. They want them wearing camouflage, and quietly opening doors etc. When in reality a Marine is just as likely to blast through the wall

 

 

[Gamiel]

I think it needs way more massaging to get it to fit than what you are doing now, and ultimately what does it add to your chapter? The classic questions; so what? why should the reader care?

It's there as a name, just that. I wanted something that winked toward Mercery and found Suisei, then when I was thinking about what to name the Chapter I realised that I got a nice alliteration with Suisei Samurai (was actually originally thinking that I would not have samurai mention anywhere and wanted to see how many got that it was somewhat inspired by samurai Japan, but then decided that the alliteration was worth ignoring that).

 

 

 

 

The Suisei Samurai is a mostly Codex following Chapter.

Now this has been my held opinion for a while so I will only say it once not to detract from the IA itself. The words 'Suisei' and 'Samurai' fall into a category I can most aptly describe as Disociated 40k Vocabulary, what I mean by that is that the words have not etymological connection to already established 40k lore, making them disconnected from the universe they are trying to be seamlessly written into. In addition to that, 'Samurai' has so many additional connotations that make them almost jarring. There are words that I can associate between Samurai and 40k; Swords, Blades etc. Pair that with a 40k equivalent for Suisei, and you get something like Star Blades

When it comes to samurai don't I really see the problem, we already have lots of other warrior groups represented in the names of Chapters and IG regiments, and many of the Chapters with something like that in their name don't really seems to fit that name that much (f.ex. the Knights of Byzantium don't seems to have anything knight-ish about them). Andd while the  Suisei Samurai have some samurai elements they don't have any daishos or tradition of ritual suicide (ignoring the Deathless). 

 

The Suisei is a reference to their homeworld, just like the Knights of Byzantium are named after their homeworld of Byzantium

The big difference between Suisei and Byzantium is the later has etymological routes in greek and latin as does 99% of 40k lore. If they are that 1% then that should be the only thing that distinguishes them, and everything should stem from that, At the moment it just reads like 'I wanted a Red Sun'

A similar principle applies to Knight and Samurai. The White Scars are not called 'Uls Mongols' there theme is heavily massaged to fit into the predominantly western focused lore.

99%? Have to disagree there, there are lots of stuff that are of medieval English origin (knights, templars, paladins, crusaders, castellan, etc.), and of the stuff that are used for Chapter names or titles that are not of Greek, Latin or medieval GB origin can I think of: scimitar, huscarl, jade, jarl, vorpal sword - there are likely more I don't recall rigth now.

 

Also, Mongols are a people, not a warrior group. But then again we do have the Imperial Castilians

 

Outside of the SM do we have lots of stuff that's not of greek or latin origin

 

 

 

 The term 'Weaponmaster' I think would be better to use a title for an Apothecary; again to tie it into already established 40k lore. 'Master of Blades' 'Artisan of Death' type of things. As Prognosticators (Silver Skulls) fill the roll of Librarian and Chaplaincy. Should the "Artisans of Death" fill both the roll of Techmarine and Chaplaincy? Iron Hand successors?

I don't follow you here. The Weaponmaster have a duty to find the right user for the right honour-weapon, and often creat new honour-weapons or repair the ones that have been damaged, why should that possition be for an Apothecary

I wrote Apothecary and then wrote Techmarine in the examples, I meant Techmarine for both. No idea why I wrote Apothecary

Okey. But what are you suggesting, since I do mention that the Weaponmaster is a specilist rankt among the techmarines? Or am I missing something here?

 

 

Raven Guard and Alpha Legion are not subtle. Alpha Legion are so good at Subterfuge that they practically do not exist.

Raven Guard take Infiltration up to 11 and then smash the enemy in the face. They do not remain silent

we seems to put different meanings in to "subtle", since you used it first, what do you mean with it? Just so we are clear

 

 

 

Navy Seal Marine are the chapters that people try to write treating Space Marines as special forces. They want them wearing camouflage, and quietly opening doors etc. When in reality a Marine is just as likely to blast through the wall

Aha, then I understand. Just wondering, what so special about them wearing camouflage, we do after all have many official pictures of chapters covering their armour with camouflage.

Edited November 30, 2021 by Gamiel

[Minigiant]

It's there as a name, just that. I wanted something that winked toward Mercery

It isn't just a name though, there are huge connotations with thematically dominant words, but I have had this conversation a million times before and ultimately like you say, it is your chapter do with it what makes you happy. I have already said more than I promised when I set out, my apologies for that. There have been so many Samurai Chapter attempts and none of them have ever really worked for one reason or another. In my opinion and solely my opinion, the terminology used is one major stumbling block

 

originally thinking that I would not have samurai mention anywhere and wanted to see how many got that it was somewhat inspired by samurai Japan

This

 

 

99%? Have to disagree there, there are lots of stuff that are of medieval English origin (knights, templars, paladins, crusaders, castellan, etc.), and of the stuff that are used for Chapter names or titles that are not of Greek, Latin or medieval GB origin can I think of: scimitar, huscarl, jade, jarl, vorpal sword - there are likely more I don't recall rigth now.

 

 

English is etymologically Latin that is precisely why it flows. Scimitar and Jade are both used in loyalist chapter names and both have their roots in the Romance Languages which again derives many of its grammar rules, diction, and syntax from Latin. I cannot find evidence of Huscarl or Jarl being used in a Chapter name. Vorpal is a special word as it is relatively new.

 

 

 

Also, Mongols are a people, not a warrior group. But then again we do have the Imperial Castilians

 

Outside of the SM do we have lots of stuff that's not of greek or latin origin

 

I am not saying you cannot have a Chapter inspired by Samurai, I am trying to highlight that by directly referencing that word (as many others do to along with other terms such as; Edo, Nippon, Bushido) you are bringing along a lot of heavily thematic baggage and connotations of that, that must be addressed. 

 

 

 

Outside of the SM do we have lots of stuff that's not of greek or latin origin

 

 

Outside of SM has no bearing on established 40k Chapter naming convention

Edited November 30, 2021 by Minigiant

[Gamiel]

Have added som info about the chapter's homeworld Suisei

 

 

 

99%? Have to disagree there, there are lots of stuff that are of medieval English origin (knights, templars, paladins, crusaders, castellan, etc.), and of the stuff that are used for Chapter names or titles that are not of Greek, Latin or medieval GB origin can I think of: scimitar, huscarl, jade, jarl, vorpal sword - there are likely more I don't recall rigth now.

 

 

English is etymologically Latin that is precisely why it flows. Scimitar and Jade are both used in loyalist chapter names and both have their roots in the Romance Languages which again derives many of its grammar rules, diction, and syntax from Latin. I cannot find evidence of Huscarl or Jarl being used in a Chapter name. Vorpal is a special word as it is relatively new.

Huscarl and Jarl are used as internal titels. 

 

Scimitar has it's origin as a Persian word. Jade may be latin based but the accosiation with it is with the non-European world. 

 

If you think scimitar is acceptable then you should not have any problem with samurai since it's an anglicisation of 侍 and can be found in English word lexicons, just as with scimitar

[Minigiant]

Have added som info about the chapter's homeworld Suisei

 

 

 

99%? Have to disagree there, there are lots of stuff that are of medieval English origin (knights, templars, paladins, crusaders, castellan, etc.), and of the stuff that are used for Chapter names or titles that are not of Greek, Latin or medieval GB origin can I think of: scimitar, huscarl, jade, jarl, vorpal sword - there are likely more I don't recall rigth now.

 

 

English is etymologically Latin that is precisely why it flows. Scimitar and Jade are both used in loyalist chapter names and both have their roots in the Romance Languages which again derives many of its grammar rules, diction, and syntax from Latin. I cannot find evidence of Huscarl or Jarl being used in a Chapter name. Vorpal is a special word as it is relatively new.

Huscarl and Jarl are used as internal titels. 

 

 

Which is fine, it is a little sprinkling of flavour, not a full trip down to flavour town

 

Have added som info about the chapter's homeworld Suisei

 

 

 

99%? Have to disagree there, there are lots of stuff that are of medieval English origin (knights, templars, paladins, crusaders, castellan, etc.), and of the stuff that are used for Chapter names or titles that are not of Greek, Latin or medieval GB origin can I think of: scimitar, huscarl, jade, jarl, vorpal sword - there are likely more I don't recall rigth now.

 

 

English is etymologically Latin that is precisely why it flows. Scimitar and Jade are both used in loyalist chapter names and both have their roots in the Romance Languages which again derives many of its grammar rules, diction, and syntax from Latin. I cannot find evidence of Huscarl or Jarl being used in a Chapter name. Vorpal is a special word as it is relatively new.

 

Scimitar has it's origin as a Persian word. Jade may be latin based but the accosiation with it is with the non-European world. 

 

The word Scimitar derives from the french

 

Have added som info about the chapter's homeworld Suisei

 

 

 

99%? Have to disagree there, there are lots of stuff that are of medieval English origin (knights, templars, paladins, crusaders, castellan, etc.), and of the stuff that are used for Chapter names or titles that are not of Greek, Latin or medieval GB origin can I think of: scimitar, huscarl, jade, jarl, vorpal sword - there are likely more I don't recall rigth now.

 

 

English is etymologically Latin that is precisely why it flows. Scimitar and Jade are both used in loyalist chapter names and both have their roots in the Romance Languages which again derives many of its grammar rules, diction, and syntax from Latin. I cannot find evidence of Huscarl or Jarl being used in a Chapter name. Vorpal is a special word as it is relatively new.

If you think scimitar is acceptable then you should not have any problem with samurai since it's an anglicisation of 侍 and can be found in English word lexicons, just as with scimitar

 

You are conflating my two arguments.

 

My first argument, etymology, Jade and Scimitar are fine, they flow in the English language, they flow when you speak. Samurai does not. The same applies in Japanese for words they have "borrowed" from English, when spoken those word will literally jump out at you.

 

My second argument is connotation, the hidden meaning behind the word. Jade, Scimitar, Samurai, have huge thematic baggage their backstories have to handle for them to be to any reasonable standard of IA. While it is canon for Chapters to use the words Jade or Scimitar, I have not seen or been able to find any examples of their backstory. My cynical side would say that it is because they come with very difficult themes to manage but in more likelihood because they are part of the huge number of GW chapters that are name only.

 

Jade; "Eastern", Magic, Sacred

Scimitar; Sinbad, Sailors

Samurai; Honour, Katanas, Ninjas, Bonsai Trees, Buddhism, Japan (Which comes with more connotation); Manga, Anime, Sushi

 

These are themes that are involved when they hear the word Samurai, and themes that need to be addressed whether through incorporating, 40kifying, becoming more grimdark.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Gamiel]

The word Scimitar derives from the french

Who got it from Persian shamshir to my understanding.

 

 My second argument is connotation, the hidden meaning behind the word. Jade, Scimitar, Samurai, have huge thematic baggage their backstories have to handle for them to be to any reasonable standard of IA. While it is canon for Chapters to use the words Jade or Scimitar, I have not seen or been able to find any examples of their backstory. My cynical side would say that it is because they come with very difficult themes to manage but in more likelihood because they are part of the huge number of GW chapters that are name only.

Just wondering, do you have the same problem with words like Paladin, Crusader, Templar, and such with a notable thematic baggage?

 

 Jade; "Eastern", Magic, Sacred

To me it's also "far western" as in the Americas 

 

 

These are themes that are involved when they hear the word Samurai, and themes that need to be addressed whether through incorporating, 40kifying, becoming more grimdark.

Or not. After all we have many chapter whose name has litte to do with who they actually are, for ex. do few of the Chapters with "knight" as part of their name have any knightly elements.

[Minigiant]

 

The word Scimitar derives from the french

Who got it from Persian shamshir to my understanding.

From Etymology online:

 

 

1540s, cimiterie, from French cimeterre (15c.) or Italian scimitarra, of uncertain origin. Turkish would be the expected source, but no such word has been found there. Perhaps from Persian shimshir (pronounced "shamsher," compare Greek sampsera "a barbarian sword," from this source), but the OED finds this "unsatisfactory as to form." Many early variations; the modern spelling is from influence of the Italian form of the word. Century Dictionary (1902) has simitar as preferred spelling.

 

 My second argument is connotation, the hidden meaning behind the word. Jade, Scimitar, Samurai, have huge thematic baggage their backstories have to handle for them to be to any reasonable standard of IA. While it is canon for Chapters to use the words Jade or Scimitar, I have not seen or been able to find any examples of their backstory. My cynical side would say that it is because they come with very difficult themes to manage but in more likelihood because they are part of the huge number of GW chapters that are name only.

Just wondering, do you have the same problem with words like Paladin, Crusader, Templar, and such with a notable thematic baggage?

 

I do if the thematic baggage that comes from the connotation of their name is not in some way addressed. I have addressed this issue in other names that have been suggested here to. For example 'Rangers' which has huge US Military connotations. In no way am I saying these chapters cannot be done including Samurai chapters. I am saying the use of the term Samurai so liberally makes writing a good written chapter unecessarily difficult. There are ways of theming a chapter without outright stating things. Refuse your argument for a second, this is reterorical, does that mean you have no objection with your chapter being called 'Mercury Knights' or does that have connotations that are not Samurai enough.

 

Anyway I do not see this conversation going any further. Both of our positions are clear, and this is the internet where nobody changes their mind.

Good luck with this, I hope to be proven wrong.

 

 

 

[Gamiel]

I have addressed this issue in other names that have been suggested here to. For example 'Rangers' which has huge US Military connotations. 

It has? I mean the first thing I think of when I hear "ranger" are DnD's ranger class, then Tolkien's rangers, after that I think it's the Texas Rangers. That the US Military has rangers is something I would have to be reminded of 

 

this is reterorical, does that mean you have no objection with your chapter being called 'Mercury Knights' or does that have connotations that are not Samurai enough.

Well I would have objections to them calling themself Mercury since their homeworld is not named Mercury. I would in practice have no problem using another warrior group instead of samurais but then I would lose the allitteration

Edited December 2, 2021 by Gamiel

[Minigiant]

 

I have addressed this issue in other names that have been suggested here to. For example 'Rangers' which has huge US Military connotations.

It has? I mean the first thing I think of when I hear "ranger" are DnD's ranger class, then Tolkien's rangers, after that I think it's the Texas Rangers. That the US Military has rangers is something I would have to be reminded of

That's the point, nobody should wash their hands of all other connotations just because they do not want to use it in that way. These words whatever they may be have multitudes of connotations all of which a good IA needs to in some way address/handle etc

Edited December 3, 2021 by Minigiant