A ray of hope or yet more cause for saltiness?

[XeonDragon]

So, GSC are getting a new model, the Reductus Saboteur. It has an ability similar to camo cloaks - OK. But what perked my interest was Clandestine ability: 

 

 

While this model is within an Area terrain feature, enemy models cannot target it with ranged attacks unless they are within 12” of it. Each time a ranged attack is made against this model, subtract 1 from that attack’s hit roll.

 

So in summary:

 

• +1 to save when in cover (stacks with cover, so +2)
• Can't be targeted when in terrain unless <12" away and
• when shot at within 12" -1 to hit if in terrain.

Ork Kommandos: 

 

 

Sneaky Gitz: Each time an attack is allocated to a model in this unit while it is receiving the benefits of cover, add an additional 2 to any armour saving throw made against that attack.

 

Now, I read the Orc ability two ways. The first is: benefits of cover (e.g. light cover) is +1 to save, add "an additional 2" to the save = +3 to save. The second is you get +2 to save when in cover, regardless of type. So they have a sneaky ability that specifically stacks with cover.

 

Now, for RG stealthy doesn't stack with cover (but camo cloaks do), so, just like every other marine chapter when in cover the best we can get (with cloaks) is +2 to save, not +3. So, for some reason, the sneaky beaky boys get as much benefit running around in the open as they do when real cover is available but only get as much benefit from actual cover as other marines. Totally makes sense. Very logical. 

 

So, looking at these.... maybe there is hope? Maybe GW will allow Stealthy, cover and camo cloaks to stack so RG are +3 to save when in light cover? Maybe we'll get units with a similar ability to clandestine? (imagine that... RG elite units that cannot be shot at unless you are within 12"!) Or maybe we'll get nothing and the sneakiest marine chapter remains just as sneaky as flesh tearers and less sneaky than Ork Kommandos and certain GSC units.

 

What do you think, is there hope or will it be more salt?

Edited November 2, 2021 by XeonDragon

[Jacques Corbin]

Well, also there is the issue of lightly armored versus heavily armored. Orks have next to no armor, and a Genestealer Cultist is not only lightly armored, but I believe he is T3 as well. So, hopefully we will see a new supplement where the Phobos units get the most enhanced stealth and cover, followed by units in Tacitus or Omnis armor, and then the Gravis, finally the bikers. Lore has established the Raven Guard have quiet/stealthy jump packs, so let's not penalize Inceptors and Suppressors. Side note, I am still lobbying GW for a Suppressors kit with options for Lastalons or Pyreblasters. Ahem.

 

Now, Clandestine would be great on Grav Chute Reivers, where if they drop into terrain, but do not shoot, they cannot be targeted by ranged attacks outside 12 inches. Let them reliably charge after they drop in, if they do not shoot, and that would be great. Really they only need that boosted survival on their first turn, just to worry your opponent. Remember even if that forces your opponent to move a unit to avoid the charge, that is still something. Infantry with heavy weapons will be firing at -1, and heavy weapons or not, they won't have the same lines of sight for firing. But I mean that is the tough choice, to hold your ground and fire at your target but get charged, or fall back to avoid the charge but not fire at your target. Likely, if your opponent moves, they will castle up a bit more, but there will be times where you isolate units or push them out of the range of an aura. Even if they do tighten their castle, you do have an Impulsor with Orbital Comms, right?

 

Finally I am holding out hope for a Phobos armored unit with jump packs and lightning claws in the new supplement. I saw that because look at Imperial Fists and Salamanders, especially the IF. You just do not hear about Lysander anymore, they went a different direction with Tor Garadon who fits a gunline better. Look at Primaris Shrike, he has Phobos armor, a jump pack, and lightning claws (that retract). And, back to my first paragraph, I think we as a chapter will have sneakier marines across the board, but I believe the direction our next supplement will go will be that we will have better Phobos marines, at least in terms of stealth. Think about it, previously Shrike was just in regular power armor, but since crossing the Rubicon, he wears Phobos. Why not Tacitus or Omnis? That is what leads me to believe we will have our current Chapter Tactics across the board, but our Phobos units will get the extra stealth buffs. And I still hold out hope that we will get a chapter specific unit in the new supplement.

[XeonDragon]

Interesting hope there. I like your ideas for the Reivers and phobos units in general. I'd love to see RG phobos units being able to take cheap camo cloaks, the way BA can take inferno pistols etc. That would really help buff the survivability of our units. 

 

Still, GW could simply issue an FAQ to stay that Shadow Masters stacks with any benefits from terrain, so +2 to save if in light cover and being shot at by more than 18" away (so +3 if the unit has a camo cloaks), -2 to hit if in dense cover (still subject to the -1 cap on hit modifiers). 

 

That alone would make RG so much more durable against alpha-strikes. Intercessors in cover would be on a 1+, so even if targeted by plasma or melta (AP-4) they'd be saving on a 5+. Eliminators on a 4+. 

 

I'd like the first part of the shadow masters ability to be reduced to 12", that would also help. 

 

Generally I am a glass-half-full person, so I am trying to look at the Ork and GSC stuff and stay positive, hoping that it means RG will get similar abilities so the fluff matches the tabletop better. Fingers crossed!  

Edited November 3, 2021 by XeonDragon

[Jacques Corbin]

No, I am fine with the 18" but I would rather we pick up a means to defeat things like Auspex Scan or the Tau intercept wargear. It would be fluffy too, since our strat to allows deep strike is actually having units lie in wait, and then spring into action. Again, that could be a phobos perk, benefits of taking the lightest armor. Something to incentivize forcing the opponent's hand, as opposed to just dropping in Inceptors and spraying down an enemy unit.

 

What I also want to see is something to protect units in the midfield. Shadow Masters stacking with terrain is good, but that is better against shooting. For melee, I would like to see an ambush ability where you not only set to defend but fight first. That would go very nicely with the Deadly Price stratagem and the Haywire Mine dropped by Incursors.

[XeonDragon]

*snip*

 

What I also want to see is something to protect units in the midfield. Shadow Masters stacking with terrain is good, but that is better against shooting. For melee, I would like to see an ambush ability where you not only set to defend but fight first. That would go very nicely with the Deadly Price stratagem and the Haywire Mine dropped by Incursors.

 

Yeah, some form of ambush would be great. So would some form of overwatch ability, a bit like the UM defensive focus stratagem. Maybe something like when a unit is charged, up to two other units within 12" that are in cover  and did not move that turn can fire overwatch (maybe hitting on 5s) as well as the unit being charged, plus the unit being charged fights first. That would really reflect the careful selection of a target, laying a trap, being patient and BOOM

Edited November 4, 2021 by XeonDragon

[Jacques Corbin]

No. No. NO! We Astartes will not be borrowing Supporting Fire from the filthy, debased, and heretical Tau. Astartes shoot to whittle down the enemy, the we charge in and finish them off.

I do not want our faction to be OP, and have lots of bandwagon-jumping, meta-chasing, unwashed losers showing up at the table with either unpainted marines or a "custom" paint scheme that could be any chapter. There are plenty of competitive events and leagues in my area, take that stuff there. Want to bring that to a casual game night, be courteous and let your opponent know you are playtesting. Do not come in all cocky trying to ruin someone's evening. That someone is so lacking in class, that they would show up to such an evening, and ruin it, for even one person in attendance, is appalling.

To be clear, not saying you are a "that guy" just that I got that impression for a moment, and felt the urge to vent my feelings about the "that guy" types.

Edited November 8, 2021 by duz_
Venting complete

[Dracos]

Jacque … sounds like youve had a rough week man.

 

I’m kind of with XD, at least in that I’d like my hundreds of years old space marine linked to the gifts of Corax to come across to be at least as sneaky as a genestealer cultist. A battle between Raven Guard and Tyranid should be a battle fought as much in the shadows as the light, both with enough shenanigans to bewilder any son of Alpharius ;)

[Jacques Corbin]

Dracos, I might just PM you later. But, yeah, you have no idea. Sorry XD, did not mean to derail your thread.

[superwill]

Talk about an ambush :p

 

Personally I do think our CT needs a huge overhaul. How is it possible that we went through 3-4 stages of nerfs from -1 to hit at 12” to now being -1 to hit for infantry only at 18” and only if you’re already on cover. Pretty wild. Happened over a course of a couple of years, with GW regularly saying that it’s just too strong of a buff, yet meanwhile they were giving the original buff to lots of other armies and even improved versions of it sometimes, and none of the other armies seemed to cop any of the nerfs that we kept copping.

 

I just think the easiest, fairest thing would be going back to -1 to hit outside 12”. Would be a great buff for sure. Heck, might even mean that people could run competitive RG as non-successors for the first time since successors existed?

Edited November 5, 2021 by superwill

[XeonDragon]

Yeah, good point. Just the old rules would be a massive improvement and yes, that is the cause of my saltiness is that what RG had that was deemed too powerful  and requiring nerfing appears to now be being handed out to other factions (albeit in slightly different forms). Parity would be lovely. 

 

Dracos, you summed up my feeling exactly. Nothing more to add. You nailed it. 

 

Jacques Corbin, I'm not "that guy". I have had my RG army painted in a unique scheme for all the three years I have been playing. I play them as successors in tournaments from time to time. Whilst I do play my army as different marine chapters (mostly BA, DA and occasionally last year BT) from time to time in casual games against friends or at my local FLGS team/league events, I don't chase the meta. I'm not a hard-core tournament player. Well over half of all my games are played as RG successors. I don't chase the meta via purchasing new armies simply because they are strong. Hope that clarifies things.

 

Also, no need to worry about derailing my thread, all good dude but... I would point out that UM already have defensive fire, and I know nothing about the Tau but if they have it, well, Astartes already have it. For the life of me I can't see why UM can get three units to overwatch with a stratagem, but RG have nothing similar to reflect ambushes. I also think it is hilarious that RG, the masters of deception and misdirection, don't have anything like the UM rapid redeployment stratagem (yes yes, we have SFTS and MOA, but still, my point stands).  

Edited November 8, 2021 by XeonDragon

[Dracos]

My first and last tournament with Space Marines was last April and my Warhawks ... which always play as Successors ... were designated as true Raven Guard. I wanted to try Shrike in a competitive setting. 

 

I thought I did okay, placing in the top third, for first time into that environment in over a decade but I'll be sticking with Successors from now on. Shrike just doesn't compensate for the low tier Chapter Tactics foisted upon us in 9th. 

[XeonDragon]

Well done Dracos :)