A short batrep: Guilliman vs Vaul.

[Prot]

So not a ton of time this morning, but I just wanted to say I play against Sisters a lot, and I just find them so good at peeling marines apart, any elite army really, but they are good at so many aspects of the game.

Anyway I had a game a few nights ago that kind of... bugged me. I decided to take Guilliman and I'll be upfront with this... personally I rate him about a 4/10 on the competitive scale, and I've played against Vaul leading the SoB many, many times, and in part that is why I have such a negative take on Guilliman right now.

Anyway, I decided to build a 'competitive' list around Guilliman simply because I got sick of staring at him in the foam tray for so many months without using him.

The mission was Vital Intelligence. This is a sort of 'vanguard' style deployment were only ONE objective is in each home zone, and the middle, corner to corner, band of map contains the other 4 objectives.

It should be noted that a lot of high ranked players consider this the worst map in the tournament scene because going first often means a blob to the middle can win a game as scoring primary is exceptionally difficult if you go second.

My list was basically very standard except I decided to take a real risk on units for heavies. I asked myself....'What else besides Guilliman seems pretty useless and I hardly use?' Instantly my Gladiator tanks came to mind as possibly the best answer to that question. So I put 2 in the list.

I had to balance that out by taking out an Ultramarine staple in my lists which is tons of Aggressors which I still find do tremendous heavy lifting with the UM tactics, and characters. I had only 5 in this list, and they were flanked by 2 x 3 man Bladeguard units pushing up with the characters in tow.

This was my deployment. To the right of the picture is the middle of the board.

So we roll to start off, and I end up taking first turn. What do I do? Well as mentioned in this map, I strongly believe hanging out in center can be an auto win if you have some terrain and don't do anything too over zealous.

Long story short I lost both my tanks very quickly (as usual) to superior melta firepower, but early in game my Aggressors got a great wall of shots off on one of the SoB Rhino's putting 10 of his 20 Sacresants on foot, and then eventually roasted and killed off before they got to do anything.

That (I would say) was my opponent's one big mistake. I should not have had access to half of his Sacresants in T1. (I can't stand those things.)

Nevertheless I would take a strong lead in T3 based purely on Primary (as this map is prone to do) and with Oath as a secondary, we were mostly tied on secondary points.

As you can see Vaul is tagged here by Guilliman.

The reason I did this is two fold: 1 the SoB were blowing me off the table. Even the tough as nails units (Bladeguard) were taking a horrendous beating from auto hitting/maxed out flamers, and his more tuned up close combat, including the other 10 Sacresants.

The second reason I did this was to keep Vaul pinned deep with her cornucopia of characters. I was losing steam at mid, and was trying to ride the wave of Primary scoring to the end.

So with Guilliman into Vaul, even using my re-rolls and the Emperors sword, I could only get Vaul and her defensive abilities down to 4 wounds! In return Vaul and her cronies would easily overkill Guilliman. The worst part is I wanted to use Only in Death but I think that got altered to only be usable if a character did not get to attack..... anyway I couldn't use it because Guilliman got up which was horrible, because of course he just got wailed on in the SoB turn.

So the SoB have a good pushback, and they are scoring with Seraphim deep striking, flaming, then scoring Octarius Data. However the small squads cannot quite hang out with out support in my zone and they die the turn they arrive pretty much.

I have one squad left pushing onward, and that is my lowly Assault Intercessors with a hammer... Using Sons of Guilliman they would pound Vaul into the ground....

And that is how this one would end.

I'd say going first, and that first squad of Sacresants made the world of difference in this one. Vaul is one tough cookie and I really feel like the original marine book needs a lot of work now. Can't wait for the next update (December?) to see what happens.

Edited November 4, 2021 by Prot

[NKirkham24]

I do think Vahl is a blueprint of what to expect from Guilliman whenever he finally gets updated.

 

For his current abilities he is way overcosted, but we can see what they're willing to do rules wise within 9th, so I could definitely see Guilliamn eclipsing her when our next supplement comes round. I can't imagine that will be any time soon, but one can hope

[Prot]

Yea it’s something I’m dying to see. I’ve tried to not start the Templars which is hard for me because I have history with them (I realized today talking to a friend that I’ve  never actually taken my UM to a tournament… ever!)

 

Im just really dying for the UM supplement. 

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

It’ll prolly be at least another year at best.

[Prot]

It’ll prolly be at least another year at best.

 

 

Ugh. Yea it's possible... I was hoping for something in Q1 2022. It would make sense if Chaos is getting a lot of attention, and I'm reading Part 3 of the Indomitus series (UM vs. DG) and there's mention of Abaddon coming back to Vigilus while Mort tries to lure Guilliman to Iax.

 

Usually those novels have some parallel with the crusade/army books. (Like the last Vigilus campaign). 

[Captain Idaho]

I've been thinking this over and we are actually out of Marines now. Everything has been updated to 9th edition except the original Supplements for Codex Space Marines so it's very possible GW will want to sell us even more Primaris therefore will invent some more and re-release Codex Space Marines alongside the Supplements from 8th.

 

I can honestly see that happening. Do we really think we'll go from now until 10th edition without any new Primaris? Supplement for Ultramarines has got to be a matter of fact alongside new releases as these are the only things Space Marine outstanding.

Edited November 15, 2021 by Captain Idaho

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

The ninth edition codex was a huge nerf overall. And lots of our units are way over pointed.

[Charybdis]

I've been thinking this over and we are actually out of Marines now. Everything has been updated to 9th edition except the original Supplements for Codex Space Marines so it's very possible GW will want to sell us even more Primaris therefore will invent some more and re-release Codex Space Marines alongside the Supplements from 8th.

 

I can honestly see that happening. Do we really think we'll go from now until 10th edition without any new Primaris? Supplement for Ultramarines has got to be a matter of fact alongside new releases as these are the only things Space Marine outstanding.

With the rumours of a push for a revamped Horus Heresy and the confirmed resizing of recent First Born models from that era I'm wondering if the first born of 40K will see a similar range refresh or even a new line?

 

It may be that GW is counting on 40K Marine players to refresh their own old units by kit bashing in the new Horus Heresy marines. I know I am. 

[Charlo]

The refresh is called Primaris lol.

 

First born exist as they are now.

[Tokugawa]

9th strongly recommend one-faction armies, so UM players pay points for GMan's "all imperium units blahblah" ability, which they will actually never or seldom use it. Don't know how will 9th UM supplement fix it.

[Prot]

As I said in the main SM thread, I honestly think it is a no-brainer for GW to revamp the first born line. Just bring them in line with Thousand Sons and even stuff like.. Deathwatch (scale wise).

 

It may have been the plan to get rid of first born; I don't know for sure, but at this point I think they would do a lot of sales by having the Primaris rules upgraded, revisit the First Born line up, and hit the Legions with some appropriate supplements.

 

Honestly I'm pretty jealous of the Templars. Although some people are complaining, I like how that book looks and feels compared to ours right now.

 

I just saw a bigger GT in the U.S. where a pretty well seasoned UM player (Jonathon Byrd) did try to compete but lost quite a bit. He's using what I believe GW would like us to use... Primaris, RG, etc, but the army feels pretty dated for being 9th ed.

 

The scary thing is I also wouldn't be surprised if UM didn't see a Supplement until 2022-23. They are already announcing delays for Genestealer Cult.

[macradam_hue]

Yeah we really do feel dated. Pretty much our whole thing, from strats to WT’s is all about rerolling. My meta has a lot of DG in it so don’t get to reroll a lot when it counts!

[Ultramarine1999]

I do think Vahl is a blueprint of what to expect from Guilliman whenever he finally gets updated.

 

For his current abilities he is way overcosted, but we can see what they're willing to do rules wise within 9th, so I could definitely see Guilliamn eclipsing her when our next supplement comes round. I can't imagine that will be any time soon, but one can hope

It pains me to say it but Guilliman is a bit of a joke compared to other characters of the same kind of status, vahl as we see above even stern both basically kill him every time. Then let's not even talk about mortarion or magnus because in my view hes not even close. Seems like we might get supplements in the summer I hope this is true.