Scions, Stormtroopers, and Kasrkin

[sitnam]

I didnt want to muddy up the wishlisting thread with lore debates, so I'm posting this here

 

 

Kasrkin replaced storm troopers…and scions replaced Kasrkin…

 

 

No  they didnt. I distinctly remember the old stormtrooper models and kasrkin models being available at the same time. In the second third edition codex, on page 20 you see a picture showcasing both sculpts.  In the 5th edition codex the artwork for the lore page of storm troopers was actually that of the old ST sculpt.

Nothing about scions is spec ops.

Stormtroopers and spec ops are very different so make up your mind about which they are

 

 

 

I dont need to make anything up, I read the lore.

 

From the 5th edition codex:

 

"Storm Troopers are taught covert operations spearhead assaults, and storm key installations. They can deploy ahead of the rest of an army, infiltrating behind enemy lines to engage the foe and cause maximum confusion."

 

Furthermore, the Militarum Tempestus codex is replete with spec ops missions the Scions undertook, including: key target extraction during a Tyranid invasion, infiltration of a Ork kill-krooza to blow it up, and stealthy high-orbit insertion to disable planetary defenses to pave the way for a Flesh Tearers assault.

 

When did Kasrkin become their own thing? In the 2003 codex they’re mentioned in the caption of artwork of them but they clearly fall under the storm trooper datasheet, and the 2008 codex has no Kasrkin datasheet . Only stormtroopers.

 

 

Game-play wise, the only regimental storm-troopers that were separate were the Krieg Grenadiers. Kasrkin never had a data sheet, they were alternative models for Stormtroopers, but they never replaced the models in lore or tabletop. Stormtroopers were specifically mentioned in the second 3rd edition and the 5th edition codexes as being Schola Progenium trained, and the 5th mentions them being fielded in individual companies. This is also reinforced by the Taros campaign book, which lists individual Storm Trooper companies in an organization chart. I dont know where the original Kasrkin lore came from, I didnt find anything specific scanning through the codexes. But I do know that the Only War supplements had Kasrkin as a seperate thing from Storm Troopers, and whereas ST's are schola trained Orphans, Kasrkin are chosen from the ranks of Cadian veterans.

 

Scions are simply a rebranding of the Storm Troopers prior to 6th edition. They have all the same traits: schola trained, individual formations, carapace armor, fancier lasguns (this was the same time we moved from hellguns to hot-shot lasgun nomenclature). The big difference is that Storm Troopers got a fancy name, and they went from being "a single permanent regiment" made up of a vast number of companies to  their own codified organization (the Militarum Temprestus) made up of vast number of companies. 

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

 

I didnt want to muddy up the wishlisting thread with lore debates, so I'm posting this here

 

 

 

Kasrkin replaced storm troopers…and scions replaced Kasrkin…

 

No they didnt. I distinctly remember the old stormtrooper models and kasrkin models being available at the same time. In the second third edition codex, on page 20 you see a picture showcasing both sculpts. In the 5th edition codex the artwork for the lore page of storm troopers was actually that of the old ST sculpt.

 

Nothing about scions is spec ops.

Stormtroopers and spec ops are very different so make up your mind about which they are

 

 

I dont need to make anything up, I read the lore.

 

From the 5th edition codex:

 

"Storm Troopers are taught covert operations spearhead assaults, and storm key installations. They can deploy ahead of the rest of an army, infiltrating behind enemy lines to engage the foe and cause maximum confusion."

 

Furthermore, the Militarum Tempestus codex is replete with spec ops missions the Scions undertook, including: key target extraction during a Tyranid invasion, infiltration of a Ork kill-krooza to blow it up, and stealthy high-orbit insertion to disable planetary defenses to pave the way for a Flesh Tearers assault.

 

When did Kasrkin become their own thing? In the 2003 codex they’re mentioned in the caption of artwork of them but they clearly fall under the storm trooper datasheet, and the 2008 codex has no Kasrkin datasheet . Only stormtroopers.

 

Game-play wise, the only regimental storm-troopers that were separate were the Krieg Grenadiers. Kasrkin never had a data sheet, they were alternative models for Stormtroopers, but they never replaced the models in lore or tabletop. Stormtroopers were specifically mentioned in the second 3rd edition and the 5th edition codexes as being Schola Progenium trained, and the 5th mentions them being fielded in individual companies. This is also reinforced by the Taros campaign book, which lists individual Storm Trooper companies in an organization chart. I dont know where the original Kasrkin lore came from, I didnt find anything specific scanning through the codexes. But I do know that the Only War supplements had Kasrkin as a seperate thing from Storm Troopers, and whereas ST's are schola trained Orphans, Kasrkin are chosen from the ranks of Cadian veterans.

 

Scions are simply a rebranding of the Storm Troopers prior to 6th edition. They have all the same traits: schola trained, individual formations, carapace armor, fancier lasguns (this was the same time we moved from hellguns to hot-shot lasgun nomenclature). The big difference is that Storm Troopers got a fancy name, and they went from being "a single permanent regiment" made up of a vast number of companies to their own codified organization (the Militarum Temprestus) made up of vast number of companies.

so you’re acknowledging that Kasrkin are storm troopers then? If they used the storm trooper data sheet they’re storm troopers.

Ergo if the scion datasheet replaced the stormtrooper datasheet then scions replaced Kasrkin by default.

 

When I was finally able to get stormtroopers the only sculpt available (as far as I was able to find) on shelves was the Kasrkin sculpt. Just because the 2nd ST sculpt was available at the same time as Kasrkin doesn’t mean they’re not the same things.

[sitnam]

Read my post.  This is about lore, not datasheets

 

 

 

However I would prefer they kill the idea of scions as independent regiments and just keep the whole ‘storm trooper’ concept as it used to be, elite troopers from regular regiments.

 

This was the post that I was responding too, and it is incorrect.  Storm Troopers, actual Schola Progenium trained troopers, have always been independent formations. Kasrkin, who existed concurrently to Storm Troopers before the Scions rebranding, are regimental elites. They are different things. You could buy the 3rd edition Storm Troopers at the same time as Kasrkin, atleast at one point, and those minis show up on in the same codex.

 

None of this really mattered until subfactions and keywords became such a heavy thing in the game. Prior to that, Kasrkin were just an alternate skin to the datasheet, but in lore Kasrkin (and other similar regimental elites) are not the same as Storm Troopers

Edited November 6, 2021 by sitnam

[sitnam]

Well after a bit more research turns out I was wrong: Kasrkin did have their own datasheet in a 3rd edition supplement, Codex: Eye of Terror. Effectively they were troops choice Storm Troopers sans deep strike and infiltrators

[lansalt]

It's not so complicated:

• Storm troopers: Generic name for elite/spec-ops Imperium human troops with hot shot lasguns, etc. Can be Astra Militarum, the Inquisition, IG regiments... usually all come from the Schola Progenium, but not always.
• Tempestus Scions: Astra Militarum's storm trooper regiments ("Tempestus" means storm, by the way)
• Karskin, Krieg Grenadiers... : Storm trooper-level units inside regular AM regiments and operating under their command.

In game terms, in 9e there's only Codex rules for Tempestus Scions and Krieg Grenadiers are in FW's Legends. Karskin can be proxied as Scions but they should be under Cadian regiment rules, and there's no way to play proper Inquition storm troopers (It would be nice to use them with Death Watch, like in the stories)

[sitnam]

My whole point is I don't believe Storm Troopers is a generic term, but became Scions after a rebranding jut like Astra Militarum. Lore blurbs for ST's constantly refer to them as Schola trained and independent formations, just like Scions.

 

I'd argue that Scions could represent Inquisitorial ST's just fine, and I'm of the belief that they too just got fit into the rebranding. Tabletop wise though, Inquisition is kind of a mess. IF they split Scions away from Astra Militarum, I could see them being the core troops behind an Imperial Agents book, perhaps alongside Rogue Trader armsmen.

 

I've always used Grenadier as the generic term for regimental ST's, due to the old Veteran customizations.

Edited November 6, 2021 by sitnam

[Sete]

We got Krieg, Catachans were rumoured and now Karskin. It's fine.

I like having plastic options.

Edited November 6, 2021 by Sete

[Lord Marshal]

Storm Troopers and Tempestus Scions are literally the same, it's just they got slapped with Copyrightus Brandium the same time as the Astra Militarum name started being a thing.

 

Karskin and Scions Storm Troopers are not the same. Within 40k, Storm Troopers are very specifically those regiments trained and organised as such by the Schola Progenium.

 

In the 3.5 'dex, you had the option of taking the Grenadier Doctrine. This gave you access to Storm Trooper units as Troops, however they lost Deep Strike/Infiltrate as a result. This Doctrine was to represent the presence of non-Storm Trooper (now Scion) units who were equipped and trained similarly but were not the same, because Storm Troopers were outsiders who were pulled in for support purposes and very often resented due to their being better equipped. Storm Troopers are not part of the regiment the way Grenadiers are, that's the distinction.

 

Since, as Sete says, the reliable leaker says Karskin are coming then presumably they'll be getting access to the <Cadian> keyword the way <Tempestus Scions> do not. 

Edited November 6, 2021 by Lord Marshal

[duz_]

Let's keep the discussion civil and constructive :tu:

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

This whole debate got started pointlessly.

It was started by me saying they were the same thing, by which I meant tabletop.

 

They’re all exactly the same on tabletop, so trying to draw a distinction between them was stupid.

[jarms48]

 

Game-play wise, the only regimental storm-troopers that were separate were the Krieg Grenadiers. Kasrkin never had a data sheet, they were alternative models for Stormtroopers, but they never replaced the models in lore or tabletop. Stormtroopers were specifically mentioned in the second 3rd edition and the 5th edition codexes as being Schola Progenium trained, and the 5th mentions them being fielded in individual companies. This is also reinforced by the Taros campaign book, which lists individual Storm Trooper companies in an organization chart. I dont know where the original Kasrkin lore came from, I didnt find anything specific scanning through the codexes. But I do know that the Only War supplements had Kasrkin as a seperate thing from Storm Troopers, and whereas ST's are schola trained Orphans, Kasrkin are chosen from the ranks of Cadian veterans.

 

 

Mmm yes, never had a datasheet....

 

Edited November 6, 2021 by jarms48

[Warhead01]

Ah, the good oll' 13th black crusade! 
That was an amazing world wide campaign. sad the results were retconned. 


Brings back memories. One IG player locally, at the time, was working a table control game with like 100 conscripts in long lines in front of his army to prevent having to take any charges. 
And he played a few units of rough riders rushing up to kill easy heavy support targets. Good times.

[sitnam]

It isn't really that pointless of a debate for 8th+ edition, since subfactions and keywords are a huge part of the game now, although prior to 8th yeah it is kind of pedantic for tabletop. Really I was responding to the lore side though, I don't play 40k (getting into KT though), I just spent way to much free time reading old codexes

Edited November 7, 2021 by sitnam

[jarms48]

It isn't really that pointless of a debate for 8th+ edition, since subfactions and keywords are a huge part of the game now, although prior to 8th yeah it is kind of pedantic for tabletop. Really I was responding to the lore side though, I don't play 40k (getting into KT though), I just spent way to much free time reading old codexes

 

This, that's why I keep saying that a return of Kasrkins or just generic Grenadiers in general would work. As they would have the <Regiment> keyword and not Militarum Tempestus.

 

Going from all previous iterations of Grenadiers and Kasrkins they also wouldn't have Aerial Drop. That's still be Scions thing.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

As I mentioned in the wishlist thread I’d like if every named regiment with production minis got their own grenadiers, that were each unique in rules if not necessarily sculpts. Edited November 15, 2021 by Inquisitor_Lensoven

[Shamansky]

Specific Veteran Doctrines made such thing in the past.

[jarms48]

Specific Veteran Doctrines made such thing in the past.

Which, ironically, also became a thing of the past.

[Sete]

Any other rumours on the Kasrkin?