The Wolftime Review Thread

[StrangerOrders]

Strangerorders, it's not mocking. It's about dealing with rebirth, it's eschatology and endtimes langauge. It's a real theme of the book - dealing with prophecy, with expectation and heritage - as well as the codes of loyalty which undergird the myths the wolves tell themselves about their reason and rhyme. This isn't mocked - but we are dealing with marines.

Marines are hidebound traditionalists - this is such a facet of almost all Astartes cultures we know of, these unchanging bastions of sameness. Yet fenris's marines have always been a premier example, alongside the Dark Angels, of being closed off to outsiders, hiding aspects of themselves and the like - of having a siege mentality versus the control the rest of the imperium might visit on them, or indeed destroy them - as aspects of the imperium have tried many times (again Bucharis's legacy is important for this novel, of another point in history that might have been viewed by its wolves as the Wolftime).

Also on the "Wolftime", I think central to it is something we know from real world religious anthropology. For some members of a religion, endtimes prophesy is literal - this doesn't make someone stupid, it is simply their world-view. For other members of that community, it isn't literal at all, but much more metaphorical. For others they just don't care. Even for the first two categories, the endtimes itself can be something that doesn't occur in one moment - and requires deep preparation for by members of that community, including sacrifice and privation. All this is important for the highly ritualistic and highly prophetic way the wolves have been presented for decades.

It is prophecy and legacy, and the tensions of expectation, hope and indeed fear, that Thorpe is exploring - the nature of prophecy and change in relation to ontological changes in the nature of the galaxy.

It's not simple at all, and it doesn't hurt to see the varied responses to this and indeed know that change is tough. We all know this. The game and its sourcebooks glossed over this, but actually it's significant and needs exploration - something which is uncomfortable. To not have the wolves resist this change, given their resistance to imperial imposition and indeed Guiliman himself in the past (itself a self-justifying myth), would have been a nonsense.

These contradictions are important - just as important as Mudire at one point explaining why he believes in the God-Emperor to a custodian who of course does not, and both can say their piece, and explore the contradictions of imperial truths.

Also :cuss, I never said anything which suggests "purely portrayed as fools" - don't misread me to justify a bias when complaining about a bias please :)

I am sorry if my comment read as personal criticism, that was not the intent.

 

It reads to me as a negative portrayal and that is what I expected, usually I would rafo myself but its difficult to justify with Thorpe outside of his Eldar work.

 

I do respect you and the fraters here though, so I am contenting myself with reading reviews and seeing if its worth rafo in my own personal view.

 

I do once again if I came across as hostile rather than disappointed though.

[Petitioner's City]

 

Strangerorders, it's not mocking. It's about dealing with rebirth, it's eschatology and endtimes langauge. It's a real theme of the book - dealing with prophecy, with expectation and heritage - as well as the codes of loyalty which undergird the myths the wolves tell themselves about their reason and rhyme. This isn't mocked - but we are dealing with marines.

Marines are hidebound traditionalists - this is such a facet of almost all Astartes cultures we know of, these unchanging bastions of sameness. Yet fenris's marines have always been a premier example, alongside the Dark Angels, of being closed off to outsiders, hiding aspects of themselves and the like - of having a siege mentality versus the control the rest of the imperium might visit on them, or indeed destroy them - as aspects of the imperium have tried many times (again Bucharis's legacy is important for this novel, of another point in history that might have been viewed by its wolves as the Wolftime).

Also on the "Wolftime", I think central to it is something we know from real world religious anthropology. For some members of a religion, endtimes prophesy is literal - this doesn't make someone stupid, it is simply their world-view. For other members of that community, it isn't literal at all, but much more metaphorical. For others they just don't care. Even for the first two categories, the endtimes itself can be something that doesn't occur in one moment - and requires deep preparation for by members of that community, including sacrifice and privation. All this is important for the highly ritualistic and highly prophetic way the wolves have been presented for decades.

It is prophecy and legacy, and the tensions of expectation, hope and indeed fear, that Thorpe is exploring - the nature of prophecy and change in relation to ontological changes in the nature of the galaxy.

It's not simple at all, and it doesn't hurt to see the varied responses to this and indeed know that change is tough. We all know this. The game and its sourcebooks glossed over this, but actually it's significant and needs exploration - something which is uncomfortable. To not have the wolves resist this change, given their resistance to imperial imposition and indeed Guiliman himself in the past (itself a self-justifying myth), would have been a nonsense.

These contradictions are important - just as important as Mudire at one point explaining why he believes in the God-Emperor to a custodian who of course does not, and both can say their piece, and explore the contradictions of imperial truths.

Also :cuss, I never said anything which suggests "purely portrayed as fools" - don't misread me to justify a bias when complaining about a bias please :)

I am sorry if my comment read as personal criticism, that was not the intent.

 

It reads to me as a negative portrayal and that is what I expected, usually I would rafo myself but its difficult to justify with Thorpe outside of his Eldar work.

 

I do respect you and the fraters here though, so I am contenting myself with reading reviews and seeing if its worth rafo in my own personal view.

 

I do once again if I came across as hostile rather than disappointed though.

I might have misread you too - sorry if I came across as upset, I wasn't. I myself was worried about Thorpe writing this, especially after his siege novel, but wanted to be open to his work too, especially after being very happy with Lorgar and Luther. I'd recommend approaching this with an open mind - it's not perfect (still too many battle scenes!), but I think it's succeeding in its ambitions far better than many of Gav's more "release-aligned" texts.

[Guest Triszin]

I just finished it after reading all weekend while at work with nothing to do.

 

I didn't like they wrote Logan Grimnar, they made him look like a total fool. Definitely not an intelligent leader, he was willing to throw away the chapter to their death multiple times for "honour" and was like a pouty teenager with Gulliman.

 

Summary here

https://pastebin.com/jRdJuuYK

is the vision elaborated on?

[Guest Triszin]

 

 

I just finished it after reading all weekend while at work with nothing to do.

 

I didn't like they wrote Logan Grimnar, they made him look like a total fool. Definitely not an intelligent leader, he was willing to throw away the chapter to their death multiple times for "honour" and was like a pouty teenager with Gulliman.

 

Summary here

https://pastebin.com/jRdJuuYK

is the vision elaborated on?

The only thing that happens is that at the end Njal has a vision that concerns him of a wolf and a golden warrior (he doesn’t say if they’re fighting), he had a similar vision before but this time in more detail.

 

He then says he previously thought the Wolf was the chapter, or Logan Grimnar but he was wrong... (he doesn’t say who the wolf is).

 

He is super concerned by this vision and leaves to go on a vision quest into the spirit of Fenris for answers the same as Russ did previously in Wolfking. Thats the last we see of Njal but I feel like that was a potential hint.

 

thanks.

 

my thought on that

my gut says dawn of fire series will tie into the ravenor trilogy, and pandemonium. which could mean russ and valdor 

[DarkChaplain]

My spontaneous guess would be that it's

 

Russ and Valdor, the two departed around the same time, despite being far across the galaxy, and they carry the Emperor's twin spears. The two are slated for a return alongside one another, too.

 

With Penitent doing what it did, and the whole Russ+Valdor thing having been seeded over the past few years, I think it's safe to say this is an actual plotline we'll see more of going forward.

 

As for Grimnar being a "fool"... well, he was also a fool during the aftermath of Armageddon, when he was ready to oppose the entire Imperium. Yes, he was a principled fool who did have a point, but he literally put his Chapter into close to renegade status with the threat of Exterminatus above Fenris. And lest we forget, this was written in an AD-B novel, who was previously mentioned as the wished-for author of the Wolves.

 

Grimnar is simply conflicted. He's sitting in-between duty, authority and the realization that the Chapter is dying, on its last legs, and Russ has not returned. He's seeing the entirety of the remaining sons of Russ crumbling after over 500 years of leading them - an yet still, he's no match for what Bjorn represents (reminder that Bjorn told him off during the aforementioned war, too).

 

Over the last few years, his homeworld was literally invaded by their archnemesis Magnus - who returned even when Russ did not - who decimated them AND used the whole thing as a ritual to bring Sortiarius back into realspace - right in front of Grimnar's doorstep!

 

His Chapter is going to hell - they barely have strength to fight left, compared to just a few decades ago. He himself has gone on multiple hunts to seek out hints of the Wolf King's path - he even went missing on one of those trips, getting captured by iirc the Changeling, and I think there actually was another incident where nobody knew where he was - and now the only thing returning are mutated werewolf brothers that got the Inquisition back on their backsides! Not Russ, though, Russ, for all his talk of returning at the Chapter's darkest hour, remains absent.

 

Let's not forget that up until a bit ago, the Chapter was besieged by the Dark Angels, Grey Knights and Inquisition before Magnus revealed himself, too. Even just the past few years before the Great Rift opened and Abaddon went on a victory lap over the galactic rubble that was once Cadia, Logan Grimnar has seen nothing but crises for the Chapter.

 

And who returns, at their supposedly darkest hour? Not Leman Russ, who had promised to. No, it's Roboute Guilliman, the Legion-Breaker, with a sort of magical solution to all his troubles: Primaris. Heck, the Wolves can now even have Successor Chapters! This never worked in the past. The Wolf Brothers were a failed experiment nearly ten millennia ago! But instead of Russ saving them, it's Guilliman, who their oldest-living member Bjorn has a hatred for to begin with. A to them untrustworthy Primarch who has already climbed the de-facto Throne of the Imperium, bringing everyone to heel one way or another.

 

OF COURSE Logan would be unhappy with this, wonder if he's made a mistake somewhere, if they made Russ give up on them, if the promise is even going to be kept in the first place or if their gene-father is dead as a doorknob. He's struggling with the very principles that make him a Vlka Fenryka and feels his faith betrayed.

 

Frankly, I'd be disappointed in him and the Rout if he weren't struggling here. It's the logical trajectory of the past 5+ years of Grimnar's narrative.

 

 

Also, that summary has far too many "girlyman"s, "rowyourboat"s and "gorillaman"s in it for comfort.

Edited November 14, 2021 by DarkChaplain

[Guest Triszin]

 

My spontaneous guess would be that it's

 

Russ and Valdor, the two departed around the same time, despite being far across the galaxy, and they carry the Emperor's twin spears. The two are slated for a return alongside one another, too.

 

With Penitent doing what it did, and the whole Russ+Valdor thing having been seeded over the past few years, I think it's safe to say this is an actual plotline we'll see more of going forward.

 

As for Grimnar being a "fool"... well, he was also a fool during the aftermath of Armageddon, when he was ready to oppose the entire Imperium. Yes, he was a principled fool who did have a point, but he literally put his Chapter into close to renegade status with the threat of Exterminatus above Fenris. And lest we forget, this was written in an AD-B novel, who was previously mentioned as the wished-for author of the Wolves.

 

Grimnar is simply conflicted. He's sitting in-between duty, authority and the realization that the Chapter is dying, on its last legs, and Russ has not returned. He's seeing the entirety of the remaining sons of Russ crumbling after over 500 years of leading them - an yet still, he's no match for what Bjorn represents (reminder that Bjorn told him off during the aforementioned war, too).

 

Over the last few years, his homeworld was literally invaded by their archnemesis Magnus - who returned even when Russ did not - who decimated them AND used the whole thing as a ritual to bring Sortiarius back into realspace - right in front of Grimnar's doorstep!

 

His Chapter is going to hell - they barely have strength to fight left, compared to just a few decades ago. He himself has gone on multiple hunts to seek out hints of the Wolf King's path - he even went missing on one of those trips, getting captured by iirc the Changeling, and I think there actually was another incident where nobody knew where he was - and now the only thing returning are mutated werewolf brothers that got the Inquisition back on their backsides! Not Russ, though, Russ, for all his talk of returning at the Chapter's darkest hour, remains absent.

 

Let's not forget that up until a bit ago, the Chapter was besieged by the Dark Angels, Grey Knights and Inquisition before Magnus revealed himself, too. Even just the past few years before the Great Rift opened and Abaddon went on a victory lap over the galactic rubble that was once Cadia, Logan Grimnar has seen nothing but crises for the Chapter.

 

And who returns, at their supposedly darkest hour? Not Leman Russ, who had promised to. No, it's Roboute Guilliman, the Legion-Breaker, with a sort of magical solution to all his troubles: Primaris. Heck, the Wolves can now even have Successor Chapters! This never worked in the past. The Wolf Brothers were a failed experiment nearly ten millennia ago! But instead of Russ saving them, it's Guilliman, who their oldest-living member Bjorn has a hatred for to begin with. A to them untrustworthy Primarch who has already climbed the de-facto Throne of the Imperium, bringing everyone to heel one way or another.

 

OF COURSE Logan would be unhappy with this, wonder if he's made a mistake somewhere, if they made Russ give up on them, if the promise is even going to be kept in the first place or if their gene-father is dead as a doorknob. He's struggling with the very principles that make him a Vlka Fenryka and feels his faith betrayed.

 

Frankly, I'd be disappointed in him and the Rout if he weren't struggling here. It's the logical trajectory of the past 5+ years of Grimnar's narrative.

 

 

Also, that summary has far too many "girlyman"s, "rowyourboat"s and "gorillaman"s in it for comfort.

I took from the vision that it was Russ and Valdor also, but also that if tied into the yellow king plot from Ravenor.

 

Why? Because it was enough to make Njal lose his hope, through the entire book he refuses to believe it was the Wolftime, and his vision made him lose all hope and believe it is indeed the Wolftime. I don't think Njal liked what he saw...

 

Although apparently ashes of prospero is a direct sequel, and its followed up by his vision in the opening of Ashes of prospero foretelling of returning primarchs so I don’t know what to believe now.

 

wait.. ashes of prospero is cannon again?

 

I thought it got hard "soft cannon" binned

[DarkChaplain]

The Wolftime is couched rather neatly between the whole Wrath of Magnus arc and Ashes of Prospero. At least thematically.

 

However, the Ultramarines envoy Arlandus Castallor from Ashes of Prospero, for example, is in The Wolftime too. Ashes of Prospero mostly avoids the subject of Primaris with the quest Njal goes on, and the name "Primaris" only ever drops in the first chapter of the book. So the bulk of the plotline is isolated from current events, with its repercussions still on the table, ready to be picked up later.

 

It really needs the redux-treatment Dark Imperium got, though, because some details don't fit precisely anymore. Nothing really that a re-edit of some lines or phrasings wouldn't be able to cope with, though.

[caladancid]

My spontaneous guess would be that it's

 

Russ and Valdor, the two departed around the same time, despite being far across the galaxy, and they carry the Emperor's twin spears. The two are slated for a return alongside one another, too.

 

With Penitent doing what it did, and the whole Russ+Valdor thing having been seeded over the past few years, I think it's safe to say this is an actual plotline we'll see more of going forward.

 

As for Grimnar being a "fool"... well, he was also a fool during the aftermath of Armageddon, when he was ready to oppose the entire Imperium. Yes, he was a principled fool who did have a point, but he literally put his Chapter into close to renegade status with the threat of Exterminatus above Fenris. And lest we forget, this was written in an AD-B novel, who was previously mentioned as the wished-for author of the Wolves.

 

Grimnar is simply conflicted. He's sitting in-between duty, authority and the realization that the Chapter is dying, on its last legs, and Russ has not returned. He's seeing the entirety of the remaining sons of Russ crumbling after over 500 years of leading them - an yet still, he's no match for what Bjorn represents (reminder that Bjorn told him off during the aforementioned war, too).

 

Over the last few years, his homeworld was literally invaded by their archnemesis Magnus - who returned even when Russ did not - who decimated them AND used the whole thing as a ritual to bring Sortiarius back into realspace - right in front of Grimnar's doorstep!

 

His Chapter is going to hell - they barely have strength to fight left, compared to just a few decades ago. He himself has gone on multiple hunts to seek out hints of the Wolf King's path - he even went missing on one of those trips, getting captured by iirc the Changeling, and I think there actually was another incident where nobody knew where he was - and now the only thing returning are mutated werewolf brothers that got the Inquisition back on their backsides! Not Russ, though, Russ, for all his talk of returning at the Chapter's darkest hour, remains absent.

 

Let's not forget that up until a bit ago, the Chapter was besieged by the Dark Angels, Grey Knights and Inquisition before Magnus revealed himself, too. Even just the past few years before the Great Rift opened and Abaddon went on a victory lap over the galactic rubble that was once Cadia, Logan Grimnar has seen nothing but crises for the Chapter.

 

And who returns, at their supposedly darkest hour? Not Leman Russ, who had promised to. No, it's Roboute Guilliman, the Legion-Breaker, with a sort of magical solution to all his troubles: Primaris. Heck, the Wolves can now even have Successor Chapters! This never worked in the past. The Wolf Brothers were a failed experiment nearly ten millennia ago! But instead of Russ saving them, it's Guilliman, who their oldest-living member Bjorn has a hatred for to begin with. A to them untrustworthy Primarch who has already climbed the de-facto Throne of the Imperium, bringing everyone to heel one way or another.

 

OF COURSE Logan would be unhappy with this, wonder if he's made a mistake somewhere, if they made Russ give up on them, if the promise is even going to be kept in the first place or if their gene-father is dead as a doorknob. He's struggling with the very principles that make him a Vlka Fenryka and feels his faith betrayed.

 

Frankly, I'd be disappointed in him and the Rout if he weren't struggling here. It's the logical trajectory of the past 5+ years of Grimnar's narrative.

 

 

Also, that summary has far too many "girlyman"s, "rowyourboat"s and "gorillaman"s in it for comfort.

 

Grimnar was not presented as a fool at all in the ADB novel.  The problem with Gav Thorpe, is that I don't think he likes Space Marines.  I think he wants them to be objects of pity or derision.  That is all fine I guess, if you like it, but doesn't do well with a few chapters in particular.  Space Wolves are one of those, as they already have a yin (barbarism) to the yang of being heroes.

[StrangerOrders]

 

My spontaneous guess would be that it's

 

Russ and Valdor, the two departed around the same time, despite being far across the galaxy, and they carry the Emperor's twin spears. The two are slated for a return alongside one another, too.

 

With Penitent doing what it did, and the whole Russ+Valdor thing having been seeded over the past few years, I think it's safe to say this is an actual plotline we'll see more of going forward.

 

As for Grimnar being a "fool"... well, he was also a fool during the aftermath of Armageddon, when he was ready to oppose the entire Imperium. Yes, he was a principled fool who did have a point, but he literally put his Chapter into close to renegade status with the threat of Exterminatus above Fenris. And lest we forget, this was written in an AD-B novel, who was previously mentioned as the wished-for author of the Wolves.

 

Grimnar is simply conflicted. He's sitting in-between duty, authority and the realization that the Chapter is dying, on its last legs, and Russ has not returned. He's seeing the entirety of the remaining sons of Russ crumbling after over 500 years of leading them - an yet still, he's no match for what Bjorn represents (reminder that Bjorn told him off during the aforementioned war, too).

 

Over the last few years, his homeworld was literally invaded by their archnemesis Magnus - who returned even when Russ did not - who decimated them AND used the whole thing as a ritual to bring Sortiarius back into realspace - right in front of Grimnar's doorstep!

 

His Chapter is going to hell - they barely have strength to fight left, compared to just a few decades ago. He himself has gone on multiple hunts to seek out hints of the Wolf King's path - he even went missing on one of those trips, getting captured by iirc the Changeling, and I think there actually was another incident where nobody knew where he was - and now the only thing returning are mutated werewolf brothers that got the Inquisition back on their backsides! Not Russ, though, Russ, for all his talk of returning at the Chapter's darkest hour, remains absent.

 

Let's not forget that up until a bit ago, the Chapter was besieged by the Dark Angels, Grey Knights and Inquisition before Magnus revealed himself, too. Even just the past few years before the Great Rift opened and Abaddon went on a victory lap over the galactic rubble that was once Cadia, Logan Grimnar has seen nothing but crises for the Chapter.

 

And who returns, at their supposedly darkest hour? Not Leman Russ, who had promised to. No, it's Roboute Guilliman, the Legion-Breaker, with a sort of magical solution to all his troubles: Primaris. Heck, the Wolves can now even have Successor Chapters! This never worked in the past. The Wolf Brothers were a failed experiment nearly ten millennia ago! But instead of Russ saving them, it's Guilliman, who their oldest-living member Bjorn has a hatred for to begin with. A to them untrustworthy Primarch who has already climbed the de-facto Throne of the Imperium, bringing everyone to heel one way or another.

 

OF COURSE Logan would be unhappy with this, wonder if he's made a mistake somewhere, if they made Russ give up on them, if the promise is even going to be kept in the first place or if their gene-father is dead as a doorknob. He's struggling with the very principles that make him a Vlka Fenryka and feels his faith betrayed.

 

Frankly, I'd be disappointed in him and the Rout if he weren't struggling here. It's the logical trajectory of the past 5+ years of Grimnar's narrative.

 

 

Also, that summary has far too many "girlyman"s, "rowyourboat"s and "gorillaman"s in it for comfort.

 

Grimnar was not presented as a fool at all in the ADB novel.  The problem with Gav Thorpe, is that I don't think he likes Space Marines.  I think he wants them to be objects of pity or derision.  That is all fine I guess, if you like it, but doesn't do well with a few chapters in particular.  Space Wolves are one of those, as they already have a yin (barbarism) to the yang of being heroes.

 

Looks at Indomitus 

 

You are not wrong...

 

I am a bit annoyed that this does seem to murder the most fun part of the Space Wolves and my favorite thing in books like Lukas or the Inferno.

 

Namely that the Wolves entire culture is a masterwork of social engineering by Russ to restrain the genetic ferocity of the VIth and the thing that rescued them from being driven to be something alike to what the XIIth did to themselves. Their entire society, honor code and sometimes insane enforcement mechanisms are literally built from the ground up to steer them down a very specific angle and to give their a pathological hatred of the things which they have a bone-etched tendency to become animals if they pursue. In the hands of the Imperium, which is basically what the Greyshields are, the VIth gene-seed was so berserk that they had to institute bloody commissar marines. 

 

Having it handwaved that the gene-seed is perfectly fine for an Ultramarine in all but name is a bit irksome and sort of messes up the fun angle Guy was building that both Guilliman and (to a potentially treasonous degree) Cawl are hellbent on preserving the strengths of each gene-line and actively looking for ways to encourage their diversity. 

 

Thorpe can create good novels, Lorgar and anything Eldar are good examples, but the thing about Lorgar and Luther are that they are very much built to make you at best pity and at best despise their subject. 

Edited November 15, 2021 by StrangerOrders

[jaxom]

 

Namely that the Wolves entire culture is a masterwork of social engineering by Russ to restrain the genetic ferocity of the VIth and the thing that rescued them from being driven to be something alike to what the XIIth did to themselves. Their entire society, honor code and sometimes insane enforcement mechanisms are literally built from the ground up to steer them down a very specific angle and to give their a pathological hatred of the things which they have a bone-etched tendency to become animals if they pursue. In the hands of the Imperium, which is basically what the Greyshields are, the VIth gene-seed was so berserk that they had to institute bloody commissar marines. 

 

Having it handwaved that the gene-seed is perfectly fine for an Ultramarine in all but name is a bit irksome and sort of messes up the fun angle Guy was building that both Guilliman and (to a potentially treasonous degree) Cawl are hellbent on preserving the strengths of each gene-line and actively looking for ways to encourage their diversity. 

 

Thorpe can create good novels, Lorgar and anything Eldar are good examples, but the thing about Lorgar and Luther are that they are very much built to make you at best pity and at best despise their subject. 

 

 

There's the VIth legion before they stabilised the gene-seed with Russ and I don't think that's an apt comparison to make to the Primaris marines who were made based on data from after the gene-seed was stabilised.

 

As for Guilliman wanting to preserve the uniqueness of the various gene-lines, the book handles that quite well in my opinion.

 

Hurak, a Primaris Corax-captain, keeps asking why Guilliman is so intent on preserving the Space Wolf chapter when they have enough VIth legion gene-seed Primaris to replace them at least three times over. Guilliman tells him to think about it, but we know the reason from the Dark Imperium series. Hurak thinks it's about morale; losing a First Founding chapter would be unthinkable to the average Imperial soldier and says so to the Wolves's leadership. Yet, for Guilliman, it's more personal. Despite how Russ felt about him, Guilliman loved all of his loyalist brothers and misses them. Guilliman is trying to preserve their unique legacies and knows it's not the gene-seed that is the true moment, but how they shaped their chapters. He can't actually tell the Wolves that because they wouldn't believe him, but the idea he's doing it for morale purposes fits their view of him as a manipulator so he doesn't correct Hurak.

[nagashnee]

Found it passable, i skimmed read the first third which for me was the worse part of the book, it suffers from having no real gravitas as Gav Thorpe is bad at math, he can TELL me the wolves are near dead all he wants but then he turns around and places their remaining numbers at 500-700 marines....wait what? That nowhere near total panic mode over, the wolves still have a gigantic fleet and tho their recruiting ground took a beating it is still going. So the actual crises becomes 'we are going to die if we keep picking GIANT fights that need near chapter total deployment'. And while it is meant to be heroic that they dont consider it an option...they really really really should.Spend 4-5 decades abusing your GIANT fleet and pick some easy wins. 

 

Pet peeve, everyone talks about how important the events happening are and how none of them are sure what to do, 'what would russ want' what would the wolves of old thinl' etc' But they dont wake up the fell handed? Like for reals? Not even when a primarch returns? Heck Roboute probably owes him some money. '

 

The book does most things at the standard BL level, but nothing really stands out and i cant imagine i will ever read it again.

[Petitioner's City]

Bjorn was awake, in time for the arrival... Indeed he was very angry. Maybe in your skimming you missed him?

 

They were also 700 at the last *count*, which was prior to Cadia's fall, many many years before (ie before the decimation of the company that stayed on cadia, with only one(?) grey hunter left; before the collapse of Krom's company; and presumably the same heavy toll on most other companies). I think they are probably below 500 by far (Ulrik says a "few hundred marines" once all the companies are returned), and of course only 12 aspirants too.

Edited November 15, 2021 by Petitioner's City

[Morovir]

Did anyone else pick up on this line?

 

"If Guilliman was to turn on the Emperor then the Space Wolves would be one of his first opponents. The history of the Ten Thousand with the Eleventh Legion is a reminder of that"

Seems like Gav wants to reignite the idea that the Space Wolves played a part in the purging of the Lost Legions.

[nagashnee]

Bjorn was awake, in time for the arrival... Indeed he was very angry. Maybe in your skimming you missed him?

 

They were also 700 at the last *count*, which was prior to Cadia's fall, many many years before (ie before the decimation of the company that stayed on cadia, with only one(?) grey hunter left; before the collapse of Krom's company; and presumably the same heavy toll on most other companies). I think they are probably below 500 by far (Ulrik says a "few hundred marines" once all the companies are returned), and of course only 12 aspirants too.

I know they mentioned he was angry at Roboute in the historical sense, but i never got the impression it was he is up about and raving, was he present in a scene? 100% Possible i missed him, i struggled to keep my attention on the book, if it wasnt for bad weather and bad health keeping him in the house i doubt i would have finished it. 

[StrangerOrders]

Bjorn was awake, in time for the arrival... Indeed he was very angry. Maybe in your skimming you missed him?

 

They were also 700 at the last *count*, which was prior to Cadia's fall, many many years before (ie before the decimation of the company that stayed on cadia, with only one(?) grey hunter left; before the collapse of Krom's company; and presumably the same heavy toll on most other companies). I think they are probably below 500 by far (Ulrik says a "few hundred marines" once all the companies are returned), and of course only 12 aspirants too.

I feel like the days of BL being able to leverage that argument is long past. For better or worse, the nature of many BL authors is such that much of their stable is unable to really write 'middling steak plots' in an engaging way and have developed an unfortunate habit of 'we gotta win this or weesa all gonna die!!!', which works for cheap buy-in the first couple of times but its a well that eventually becomes tapped.

 

So it is hard to really buy this line of argument for the steaks.

 

The Salamanders made their intro to history with 90% casualties as a Legion on their first mission, the BAngels go down to a couple hundred every second Thursday, the Lamenters exist, the Imperial Fists have gone extinct and are still kicking around. Even the Ultramarines have been bled to that degree before. Heck, the Wolves have had at least four extinction level episodes that I can rattle off from memory where they were more devastated. 

 

More to the point, this is not 30k. Astartes of 40k are not really deploying as a company more than once a decade most times, usually its a squad or two in a pinch, its why the above all suck but are not the end of the world and not treated as such in more sober works. The Wolves can get along just fine as long as they dont snort warp dust and run off to try and solo the Black Legion (Again) or something. 

 

So why should the Wolves be worried about going down to a couple hundred?

 

Thorpe has done alot for the setting but in many senses he is a relic and not in a good way, trying to ram the stakes down our throats (a habit which makes the outcome both predictable and boring, since defeat literally means the faction cant exist) is a behaviour most of BL has grown out of and he would be wise to follow suit.

Edited November 15, 2021 by StrangerOrders

[Petitioner's City]

SO, read the book rather than keep making claims about what it does which it isn't doing, please :)

 

It's ok to complain, but actually read the text before doing so.

 

And the "stakes" have been established in 40k since at least third edition, and the "new" setting of 8th and 9th is apocalyptic. Remember this book is set a few years after cadia - which was the apocalyptic event which had hung over 40k for six editions, and the imperium for nine millenia since the gate was formed. Now they live in something which truly feels like the endtimes - again as I said before, think religiously about this. Think what it means to have a world view which is eschatological and for that end times to suddenly arrive.

 

Don't contextualise the numbers in terms of what you know of 30k (salamanders) or of what our characters won't know (Lamenters, for example, or the BA thought lost and gone), instead contextualise it in terms of what it tells you about what its characters know - which is very little since Fenris is cut off from the wider imperium by the warp, xenos and general dimming of the lights. Remember, this imperium is wider and larger than you or I can conceive of, and they don't have the internet or nice shiny codices telling them it will all be ok, or even what their neighbours half a galaxy away are doing. Scale is something I've always admired Gav for really strongly using, and this novel is steeped in scale - it does take time for things to occur.

 

Just read it first rather than complain without reading it, and damn well read it with an open mind rather than let your biases get in the way :)

Edited November 15, 2021 by Petitioner's City

[Petitioner's City]

 

 

Bjorn was awake, in time for the arrival... Indeed he was very angry. Maybe in your skimming you missed him?

 

They were also 700 at the last *count*, which was prior to Cadia's fall, many many years before (ie before the decimation of the company that stayed on cadia, with only one(?) grey hunter left; before the collapse of Krom's company; and presumably the same heavy toll on most other companies). I think they are probably below 500 by far (Ulrik says a "few hundred marines" once all the companies are returned), and of course only 12 aspirants too.

I know they mentioned he was angry at Roboute in the historical sense, but i never got the impression it was he is up about and raving, was he present in a scene? 100% Possible i missed him, i struggled to keep my attention on the book, if it wasnt for bad weather and bad health keeping him in the house i doubt i would have finished it.

He was in the council scene, and his words consolidate Logan's position.

[byrd9999]

I have bought Avenging Son and Gate of Bones but haven't gotten around to reading them yet.

 

I am interested in this book, but can someone tell me how much this dovetails with the grander narrative of the Dawn of Fire series so far?

 

Does each entry add more to the overall arc of DoF, and will I be missing out if I don't read Wolftime? Or is each entry separate and some can be skipped without missing much?

[nagashnee]

 

 

Bjorn was awake, in time for the arrival... Indeed he was very angry. Maybe in your skimming you missed him?

 

They were also 700 at the last *count*, which was prior to Cadia's fall, many many years before (ie before the decimation of the company that stayed on cadia, with only one(?) grey hunter left; before the collapse of Krom's company; and presumably the same heavy toll on most other companies). I think they are probably below 500 by far (Ulrik says a "few hundred marines" once all the companies are returned), and of course only 12 aspirants too.

I know they mentioned he was angry at Roboute in the historical sense, but i never got the impression it was he is up about and raving, was he present in a scene? 100% Possible i missed him, i struggled to keep my attention on the book, if it wasnt for bad weather and bad health keeping him in the house i doubt i would have finished it.

He was in the council scene, and his words consolidate Logan's position.

 

Nice, will go back and re read that scene more carefully when i get a chance. 

[Wraithwing]

Just finished it, enjoyed. It did drag in places. Gav's not great at writing fenrisian poetry/visions. 

 

And I was so, so pleased to not read the words 'wet leopard growl' over and over again. 

[Guest Triszin]

Almost done with it, I'll give my thoughts on it later.

 

Overall I liked the book.

Not to much action in it, which I like, Rob g is barely in the book, which is also good.

[Guest Triszin]

My thoughts, liked it, it's laying ground work for major conflicts

 

Grimnars actions in the book were appropriate, him.not wanting/worrying about the primaris integration is legitimate as he was looking at the long term implications of a mass injection of "uplanders" into wolves. And how it would change the wolves.

His decision to accept them wasn't due to Gaius. He had already come to that conclusion at the dinner feast with Robby.

 

He accepts them, but offers no oath to Robby g.

 

_-------

 

Sub plots

 

Bucharis: wolves have a immense library/intelligence area that the historitors and a custode we're allowed access to, to review. They ask Njal about when bucharis and the church Njal attacked fenris. informed them of a inquisitorial repository wolves send back up data to, that wasn't on anyone's records. Njal presumes the documents are on a desk I'm a administratum hive for hundreds of years.

 

Custode and historians dispatch to go the hearth* (will correct spelling). E route they find the rigorous, the first torch bearer ship dispatched to the wolves with primaris tech, but never arrived. Orks ripped it out of the warp with Ork tech and attack it, took it over. Here we learn Orks have a traitor commissar working with them. They also have a attack moon that is active.

 

They then report this back to rob g, and continue onwards to hearth.(they do not reach hearth in this book)

 

They discover bucharis has/had a black stone ring.

---

Space hulk

Wolves have been fighting a massive Ork psyker warlord on a space hulk. They recall in the book to go to fenris due to rob g arriving, but need more man power to deal with it.

 

After acceptance of the primaris, they deploy to the space hulk with thousands of primaris and take the space hulk.

They then setup a outpost on the hulk, and use it as a mobile proving ground for primaris wolves. (They purposefully don't fully remove the Orks, just most of them, the. Use the remaining Orks to train/prove the primaris.)

Wolves can pretty much control where the hulk goes. So wolves now have a massive semi mobile fortress/outpost.

 

---

 

Rob g is very worried about ghaz, knows Orks have been on terra, but it's redacted. He figures this out through gaps in records and historical records around the instance.

 

Knows ghaz is either at the beast level, or quickly approaching it. Is also worried about the Ork attack moons that are apparently active again.

 

 

 

---

Njal sees multiple visions in the book, and a human fenrisian psyker has a vision and makes her way to njal to share.

It's very vague, but hints at a wolf, a golden warrior, and it is the first time njal loses hope and goes on a vision quest.

 

-----

I know people say ashes of prospero is now cannon again, but I think it is a isn't.

I wouldn't take any events in ashes as cannon.

-----

My thoughts on njal vision?

 

Vibe I get is that dawn of fire will tie into pandemonium. Wolf and golden warrior, Russ and valdor.

 

---------

 

Robby went to wolves partly because he doesn't want to "replace" in name only a first founding. It's important that first founding s still have a direct line to their primarchs and heritage.

Which I think means Robby g doesn't know the imperial fists were all wiped out during the war of the beast.

 

 

---

It's lining many things up ATM.

-ghaz becoming a major player on par with Abaddon in terms of danger.

-g man's slow March to the Naucund gauntlet.

-bucharis and his history/danger (I think this will be what ties in the revenor trilogy and pandemonium)

-robby g needs wolves, he needs them to deal with the orks and slow them down so he can focus on Abaddon

Edited November 17, 2021 by Triszin

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

Found it passable, i skimmed read the first third which for me was the worse part of the book, it suffers from having no real gravitas as Gav Thorpe is bad at math, he can TELL me the wolves are near dead all he wants but then he turns around and places their remaining numbers at 500-700 marines....wait what? That nowhere near total panic mode over, the wolves still have a gigantic fleet and tho their recruiting ground took a beating it is still going. So the actual crises becomes 'we are going to die if we keep picking GIANT fights that need near chapter total deployment'. And while it is meant to be heroic that they dont consider it an option...they really really really should.Spend 4-5 decades abusing your GIANT fleet and pick some easy wins. 

 

Pet peeve, everyone talks about how important the events happening are and how none of them are sure what to do, 'what would russ want' what would the wolves of old thinl' etc' But they dont wake up the fell handed? Like for reals? Not even when a primarch returns? Heck Roboute probably owes him some money. '

 

The book does most things at the standard BL level, but nothing really stands out and i cant imagine i will ever read it again.

 

The thing with space wolves is that they don't follow the codex. So for a normal chapter being down to 500-700 marines is bad but as you put it not panic mode (though it would impact them) for wolves its a different story.

 

Space Wolves have 12 great companies that are basically self sufficient. We don't know the numbers for all of them but Ragnar had close to 200 in his, and Logan was right at 200. GW didn't provide information on all the great companies but I think the general consensus in the past when we had the discussion about the size of the chapter was about 2000 marines before Magnus Invaded. This fluff is still current in the supplement it mentions Guilliman ignoring that the Blackmanes have close to 200 members, and in the great companies section it mentions that there are charges the wolves maintain more warriors than allowed. 

 

So being down to 500 would be a huge deal for wolves. Being a first founding probably gives them some protection but I think its fair to say that the only reason it was overlooked was because the wolves were covering a lot of ground  and were close Cadia.

Edited November 20, 2021 by Jorin Helm-splitter

[Lord_Ikka]

It was an interesting book, if slightly disappointing. My disappointment came from the fact that I don't think the book added much to the furthering of the storyline. Yes, seeing the Wolves reaction to Primaris/Gulliman was interesting and fit well with their character, but I was hoping for the Dawn of Fire series to really start pushing the overall narrative of the universe. Is the next book going to be about the DA and their issues with trusting the Primaris? I certainly hope not. I'm not trying to be down on the actual contents of the book, which were fine and I enjoyed most of it. I was just not really happy about reading a Dawn of Fire novel, the series that GW said would be pushing the narrative, feeling like it was just treading water.

[DarkChaplain]

Getting the Wolves on board is most assuredly going to come back as an important element. Right now, I'd say we're still in the establishing phase of the Indomitus Crusade. It's also the first Dawn of Fire novel to really tackle the direct distribution of Primaris - we had some dispatches mentioned in Avenging Son, but that's a far cry from going to one of the most skeptical / risk-driving First Founding Chapters and telling them their culture is at risk of getting swept away.

 

So The Wolftime hits two nails with one strike: Addressing the at least partially valid criticisms of Guilliman's actions and politicking, and how his Scouring-Era actions are still remembered by his critics, by way of the Wolves, AND dealing with the early emergency rollout of Primaris to secure the Imperium's defence.

 

On top of that, it also makes sure that other books, like Ashes of Prospero and the Saga of the Beast arc with Ragnar, can even happen. The Wolves' narrative jumped ahead with the release of Ghaz and Ragnar, and here we get the grudging acceptance of Guilliman and his reforms at last - something that was needed.

 

The Wolves also connect back to Gathalamor, though that's not the big narrative purpose of the book.

 

My thinking is, most of this material about a First Founding Chapter not accepting and welcoming Guilliman with open arms had to be tackled sooner rather than later into the Indomitus Crusade. The Wolves are the best candidate to handle this, and they definitely needed their situation shown after Wrath of Magnus had its MacNiven tie-in novel canned on short notice. There's still that particular gap in their narrative arc, but at least we know how things stand now and it was tied into the ongoing narrative of the Indomitus Crusade while making various statements about Roboute's politics. That's a good thing.

 

With these three books out of the way, we have various plotlines to draw on in the future, beyond "omg Chaos", because the Orks are definitely not sitting by idly. While the primary antagonist seems to be Tenebrus with his Bucharis-doodad, we definitely can't ignore the state of the galaxy in general and single out the Hand for the remainder of the series. It wouldn't really be credible, and would neglect the scope of the endeavor.