The Wolftime Review Thread

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

I don't think it's fair to view the title of the book a "troll job". Mainly because without the concept of the Wolftime the book just doesn't work. There just isn't any motivation for the wolves to turn down Primaris without it. Logan basically has two choices

 

1) take the reinforcements, owe Guilliman a debt. 

 

2) start the final battle, have Russ show up and lead the wolves out of it.

 

Without using the wolftime as justification, logan only really has option 1. I think it's OK to name your book after a concept that enables your story.

 

I can understand being frustrated that Russ hasn't been released but I don't think any of that anger should be directed to towards the BL team, cause at the end of day Gav used the concept of the "Wolftime" better than the studio has. If Russ is ready its entirely on them, and if he isn't ready/planned they need to cut that stuff out. 

[nagashnee]

BL has a history with 'tease' titles, Prospero Burns comes to mind as possible the biggest victim here. And while its not fair to judge a book by its cover, it is fair to judge a book on the sneaky marketing used. 

 

If i buy a book called 'The Death of Dante'  and it turns out to be about the death of Dantes artistic side after a scathing review by the new Baal post i will be disappointed, no matter how good the book is. 

 

For the book in question the Title is in no way a MUST have, it is however an easy way to score some extra sales. 

[Brother Lunkhead]

You make some fine points concerning Logan and the Space Wolves and the concept of the Wolftime as used in the story Brother Jorin However, viewing the title of the book as a "troll job" is still a valid opinion. BL isn't just a book publisher, it's a marketing arm of GW, and the good folks at BL use all the tricks of the trade. When The Wolftime was first announced and when it was released it stirred up more than a little dust which I'm sure was by design, and as nagashnee well points out this isn't the first "tease" title from BL. The tease generates controversy and conversation, and that generates interest, and interest generates sales.

 

It's manipulative as all, and some folks are not cool with being manipulated. That too is a valid feeling and it's fine to express that displeasure. I understood what BL was doing here and I wasn't wholly sanguine with it, but you know what?... I bought it anyway Devilishly clever these Black Library elves

[Petitioner's City]

Good points nagashee, but I think a key point is that "the wolftime" isn't titled "Russ returns" - just because you take it as meaning that doesn't mean it is that (otherwise it would be called "Russ Returns"). Instead, as I had said, the "wolftime" is a religious and eschatological event - and the text makes clear it is more than just "the name for the event in which Russ returns", being an "apocalypse-esque" series of events or causalities which force a deity-esque figure to act. The wolves' desire for and/or response to this endtimes situation is the subject of Gav's writing, and I actually really adore that the title is so open to that. I think we as readers can't be simplistic in how we approach even a title - especially when we in our mind are unfair to a title, by reducing it to something which it isn't quite.

 

But I get if expectating that, it will be disappointing :) I am reminded of

- I get it people want different things :)

 

But honestly we don't know why a title was picked, or indeed who in this instance - was it Gav, was it Guy (the series editor), or another member of the writing team (if there is such a thing rather than authors commissioned by Guy), or someone else?

 

PB is also something I'll defend - the book wears it's literary references on its sleeve (including in its interstitial quotes from The Tempest); Prospero is of course of Shakespearean origin, and Abnett was going "above" the default here in a way that was so creative. "Prospero" becomes polyvalent, being as much magic, magicians, wizardry and more - as well as *knowledge*. And in the end many forms of this "Prospero" burn, including the planet so-named in the end. It's a wonderfully mature novel, and the title is operating on multiple levels just as much as the text is. Again who knows who picked the title (Dan, Graham, Laurie(?), Alan Merritt, etc), but I do think the text justifies the title. I've just never understood why people find it misleading, especially as we do get the battle - but more so, why the battle occurs so vehemently.

 

Also within the context of the heresy series, what other books have a literalistic title telling you on the tin what's happening, in the way people complain that PB's title is not? And where does that titular event actually dominate the book in the way people say the fall of Tizca does not dominate PB? PB is pretty close to thematic structure to "Flight of the Eisenstein", a close analogue in being a long look at its subject legion then closing on a shorter section involving the literal telling of the titular event (although PB is on my mind far superior and far more interesting). I guess only "The Battle for the Abyss" is as blunt as its title? But what other title lends a reader an expectation of a literalistic take of the title in the heresy series, before or after PB?

 

Brother Lunkhead, I think calling it the marketing arm is a bit of a disservice to both the writers and editors in general, and to marketers

Edited March 5, 2022 by Petitioner's City

[byrd9999]

PB is also something I'll defend - the book wears it's literary references on its sleeve (including in its interstitial quotes from The Tempest); Prospero is of course of Shakespearean origin, and Abnett was going "above" the default here in a way that was so creative. "Prospero" becomes polyvalent, being as much magic, magicians, wizardry and more - as well as *knowledge*. And in the end many forms of this "Prospero" burn, including the planet so-named in the end. It's a wonderfully mature novel, and the title is operating on multiple levels just as much as the text is. Again who knows who picked the title (Dan, Graham, Laurie(?), Alan Merritt, etc), but I do think the text justifies the title. I've just never understood why people find it misleading, especially as we do get the battle - but more so, why the battle occurs so vehemently.

 

 

This is superb. Thank you.

[Gamiel]

Question to you that belived Russ would return in this book, why did you think that non of the timelines and books that take place after Wolftime had not mentioned that there was a secund Primarch around?

[nagashnee]

Also within the context of the heresy series, what other books have a literalistic title telling you on the tin what's happening, in the way people complain that PB's title is not? And where does that titular event actually dominate the book in the way people say the fall of Tizca does not dominate PB? PB is pretty close to thematic structure to "Flight of the Eisenstein", a close analogue in being a long look at its subject legion then closing on a shorter section involving the literal telling of the titular event (although PB is on my mind far superior and far more interesting). I guess only "The Battle for the Abyss" is as blunt as its title? But what other title lends a reader an expectation of a literalistic take of the title in the heresy series, before or after PB?

 

You know for a second i drew a blank, but then Titandeath, Talarn, Master of Mankind, Mechanicum, The First Heretic and Pharos popped in my head ( probably more going off memory).  Now i see your point and excellent examples of titles that both tell us the broad strokes of plot but also hold layers exist, preatorian of dorn, A thousand sons, Legion etc.   

 

The simple fact is you cant exclude the established meaning of key lore and claim oh its about the hidden meaning of the words when you know for a fact that title/name/phrase will also serve as bait to people who might otherwise not get the book.   A book named corax will drawn in raven guard fans, titandeath will drawn in the AT crowd, Naughty Sororitas Novices will draw a crowd the average GW might not wish associated with the brand.   There is nothing wrong with clever marketing, but if you sell me a cherry coke only to reveal the flavour is actualy a clever deconstruction of societies obsessions with cherry flavored sweetness ( or bitterness depending on the cherry of course) and not indeed a cherry flavoured coke i will not be a happy camper.

 

The wolftime is the time when russ is suppose to return, GW is slowly bring back primarchs into 40k WITH MODELS!, the book series in question has been loudly touted to be pushing new lore on us. Some people will have expectations, and in my view they SHOULD have them, because that what the company has set them up to have.  Now if russ actually returns, or if its just the set up to that event or even chain of events is not the point. The point is that SOME people will buy the space wolf book called the wolf time because they expect it to be about the wolf time. Not the time the space wolfs decide is ALMOST but not quite but was just like 'this' close to being the wolf time.  And they were not stupid for believing so.   

 

But like in all complaints with GW i will say, they are a company, they will do anything they can get away with to maximize profit ( and there is nothing wrong with this),  BL especially as the past has shown will do ANYTHING they think will make them more money, (the publications period) you mentioned is proof of that, the reason they moved away from that is funnily enough, cause it did not make them a TON of money. So i fully believe that the title was selected on purpose with the express purpose of maximizing sales with any artistic benefits being a happy bonus.

Edited March 5, 2022 by nagashnee

[byrd9999]

 

Also within the context of the heresy series, what other books have a literalistic title telling you on the tin what's happening, in the way people complain that PB's title is not? And where does that titular event actually dominate the book in the way people say the fall of Tizca does not dominate PB? PB is pretty close to thematic structure to "Flight of the Eisenstein", a close analogue in being a long look at its subject legion then closing on a shorter section involving the literal telling of the titular event (although PB is on my mind far superior and far more interesting). I guess only "The Battle for the Abyss" is as blunt as its title? But what other title lends a reader an expectation of a literalistic take of the title in the heresy series, before or after PB?

 

 There is nothing wrong with clever marketing, but if you sell me a cherry coke only to reveal the flavour is actualy a clever deconstruction of societies obsessions with cherry flavored sweetness ( or bitterness depending on the cherry of course) and not indeed a cherry flavoured coke i will not be a happy camper.

 

 

It's more like buying a cherry coke and thinking Coca Cola trolled you because it didn't contain any real cherry.

 

I'm still unsure who would have bought this book thinking Russ was definitely coming back. There was no model, no news about it beforehand, and even the blurb  says that the Wolves are still waiting.

 

But I think we'll all have to agree to disagree.

[Moonreaper666]

Here is the thing Guilliman's return wasn't all positives. The guy is a gigantic magnet for the top-tier Chaos characters. Magnus, Shalaxi Helbane, Fulgrim, Lorgar and Mortarion plus countless others are now much more involved fighting the the Imperium because of his return

 

Gotta figure Russ' return (assuming he's still alive considered Magnus knows where he is) is just going to attract more Chaos characters to attack the Imperium with greater fanaticism

 

Magnus, Fulgrim, Madox, Skarbrand, Angron, Shalaxi Hellbane, Omegon and others will attack Russ, Space Wolves and Imperium like never before

 

Even with Primaris and Russ the Space Wolves don't stand a chance against Magnus and his New Kingdom

 

How many Space Wolves and Wolfspear are there by the Psychic Awakening?

[DarkChaplain]

You got it backwards. Guilliman was resurrected because things were going to hell in the galaxy and they had to risk this plan - those Primarchs were already aligned with Abaddon during the Thirteenth Black Crusade. They are more involved because of that itty bitty scar splitting the galaxy in half, and allowing the warp to bleed into reality in myriad places - allowing for much easier manifestation.

 

The only Primarchs who went for Guilliman directly are Magnus (during the Terran Crusade) and Mortarion (during the Plague Wars). The others are content just doing their own stuff and scheming somewhere outside of the spotlight - and they have been doing that for longer than the entire Horus Heresy lasted.

 

The difference really is just this: Without Guilliman's return, and him putting together Indomitus, these Primarchs would have won with little to no resistance.

 

Also, as usual [citation needed]. If you'd read The Wolftime, you'd be aware that the Wolves have just received a couple thousands of fresh Primaris - and the Wolfspears are technically not even founded yet. That happens around 8-9 years later as far as I am aware. There are more Unnumbered Sons of Russ among the Indomitus fleets than even what Grimnar was given command of.

 

...meanwhile, Magnus the Red gets bullied by Lukas the Trickster :')

[Moonreaper666]

You got it backwards. Guilliman was resurrected because things were going to hell in the galaxy and they had to risk this plan - those Primarchs were already aligned with Abaddon during the Thirteenth Black Crusade. They are more involved because of that itty bitty scar splitting the galaxy in half, and allowing the warp to bleed into reality in myriad places - allowing for much easier manifestation.

 

The only Primarchs who went for Guilliman directly are Magnus (during the Terran Crusade) and Mortarion (during the Plague Wars). The others are content just doing their own stuff and scheming somewhere outside of the spotlight - and they have been doing that for longer than the entire Horus Heresy lasted.

 

The difference really is just this: Without Guilliman's return, and him putting together Indomitus, these Primarchs would have won with little to no resistance.

 

Also, as usual [citation needed]. If you'd read The Wolftime, you'd be aware that the Wolves have just received a couple thousands of fresh Primaris - and the Wolfspears are technically not even founded yet. That happens around 8-9 years later as far as I am aware. There are more Unnumbered Sons of Russ among the Indomitus fleets than even what Grimnar was given command of.

 

...meanwhile, Magnus the Red gets bullied by Lukas the Trickster :')

Fulgrim also 'visited' Guilliman. Shalaxi Helbane did wound the Smurf

[Petitioner's City]

 

You got it backwards. Guilliman was resurrected because things were going to hell in the galaxy and they had to risk this plan - those Primarchs were already aligned with Abaddon during the Thirteenth Black Crusade. They are more involved because of that itty bitty scar splitting the galaxy in half, and allowing the warp to bleed into reality in myriad places - allowing for much easier manifestation.

 

The only Primarchs who went for Guilliman directly are Magnus (during the Terran Crusade) and Mortarion (during the Plague Wars). The others are content just doing their own stuff and scheming somewhere outside of the spotlight - and they have been doing that for longer than the entire Horus Heresy lasted.

 

The difference really is just this: Without Guilliman's return, and him putting together Indomitus, these Primarchs would have won with little to no resistance.

 

Also, as usual [citation needed]. If you'd read The Wolftime, you'd be aware that the Wolves have just received a couple thousands of fresh Primaris - and the Wolfspears are technically not even founded yet. That happens around 8-9 years later as far as I am aware. There are more Unnumbered Sons of Russ among the Indomitus fleets than even what Grimnar was given command of.

 

...meanwhile, Magnus the Red gets bullied by Lukas the Trickster :')

Fulgrim also 'visited' Guilliman. Shalaxi Helbane did wound the Smurf

Again, when does this occur? Was that in Psychic Awakening, a novel, etc.? And can we not use terms like "smurf", it's silly - what are we, kids? Or sports fans? Edit: I guess we are gamers Edited March 6, 2022 by Petitioner's City

[Brother Lunkhead]

 

 And can we not use terms like "smurf", it's silly - what are we, kids? Or sports fans?

It's okay "Smurf" is a time-honored name used by those who are bitter that they are not Ultramarines (We're BLUE you know). We bear it as a badge of honor .... 

[Petitioner's City]

 

 

And can we not use terms like "smurf", it's silly - what are we, kids? Or sports fans?

It's okay "Smurf" is a time-honored name used by those who are bitter that they are not Ultramarines (We're BLUE you know). We bear it as a badge of honor ....

Ahaha, fair comment, BL! Go team smurf! Although I guess the Smurfs themselves weren't bad, so is it even really an insult?

[Moonreaper666]

 

 

 

And can we not use terms like "smurf", it's silly - what are we, kids? Or sports fans?

It's okay "Smurf" is a time-honored name used by those who are bitter that they are not Ultramarines (We're BLUE you know). We bear it as a badge of honor ....

Ahaha, fair comment, BL! Go team smurf! Although I guess the Smurfs themselves weren't bad, so is it even really an insult?

[Brother Lunkhead]

 

Ahaha, fair comment, BL! Go team smurf! Although I guess the Smurfs themselves weren't bad, so is it even really an insult?

 

I think some who call us Smurfs are using it as an insult, we just don't take it as such However, we do take exception to being called "vanilla marines" What's up with that?.... Vanilla isn't even blue

 

Are we off topic?..... I think we're off topic

[Moonreaper666]

 

 

Ahaha, fair comment, BL! Go team smurf! Although I guess the Smurfs themselves weren't bad, so is it even really an insult?

 

I think some who call us Smurfs are using it as an insult, we just don't take it as such However, we do take exception to being called "vanilla marines" What's up with that?.... Vanilla isn't even blue

 

Are we off topic?..... I think we're off topic

Ok then. What kinds of insults do the Wolves give to Guilliman and the Ultramarines then?

 

Do they call them boring and unimaginative like their color scheme?

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

Moonreaper666 - Dawn of fire is set before psychic awakening, Wolftime occurs in the first 3 years of Indominus crusade.

 

We don't really know what the current strength of the chapter is, I think the wolfspear are supposed to be on the small size for a chapter (Logan gives them equipment, and troops).

 

Russ coming back is something they've hinted at for a while and I'm sure if he arrives that he will draw some attention probably from an unreleased chaos primarch lol. 40k is always shooting to make the current time the worse time.

 

Edit: they don't insult him so much as disrespect him.

Edited March 6, 2022 by Jorin Helm-splitter

[Petitioner's City]

Yeah, "legion breaker" isn't that bad of an insult when you remember what legions did

[cheywood]

Spoilers for The Successors’ short story, The Wolves of Raukos involved

 

Moonreaper, the Wolfspear chapter started with around 500 men and was brought up to full strength (by codex standards) within a few years of its founding thanks to an influx of primaris from the Space Wolves

[Bulwyf]

For those asking why I haven't responded I am not going to respond until I finish the novel. I am about 25% through so far and after three paragraphs goes by it seems I get a new POV from another random character. I gave up trying to count how many different POVs is in this novel so far. 

[Brother Lunkhead]

 

 

Are we off topic?..... I think we're off topic

Ok then. What kinds of insults do the Wolves give to Guilliman and the Ultramarines then?

 

Do they call them boring and unimaginative like their color scheme?

 

Time to get back on topic..... let's get back there.

[LemanPuss]

I've just finished it.

 

My assessment... disappointing and rather laboured.

 

I'm also rereading helwinter gate, which is awesome imo.

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

Yeah, Chris Wraight is on different level than Gav. It's really impressive to look at how many people want him to write more about their chapter/legion. I think he just gets what we like about specific chapters and is good at emphasizing it.

[sitnam]

Yeah, Chris Wraight is on different level than Gav. It's really impressive to look at how many people want him to write more about their chapter/legion. I think he just gets what we like about specific chapters and is good at emphasizing it.

His take on the Iron Hands was disappointing imo. Wrath of Iron was a good book, but I felt Guymer (his 40k work, not 30k) did a better job giving the Iron Hands a culture and personality.