The Wolftime Review Thread

[Scribe]

 

Yeah, Chris Wraight is on different level than Gav. It's really impressive to look at how many people want him to write more about their chapter/legion. I think he just gets what we like about specific chapters and is good at emphasizing it.

His take on the Iron Hands was disappointing imo. Wrath of Iron was a good book, but I felt Guymer (his 40k work, not 30k) did a better job giving the Iron Hands a culture and personality.

Wrath of Iron is one of the greatest pieces of Imperial fiction.

 

Flat out, one of the best 40k books.

[Bulwyf]

I finally finished the book. What a let down. I liked previous Thorpe novels. This, though, was a disappointment. Main problems listed below:

1. The title is completely misleading. This is not, at all, the Wolftime. It is nowhere near the Wolftime. There is no Russ. There is no hint of Russ coming back. There is a throw away line or two that Logan wonders if the Wolftime is coming close. That's pretty much it. Njal apparently gets some hints in the random Fenrisian gothi's visions that MAYBE Russ is coming back. Njal goes to the Underverse which is where Ashes of Prospero, another Gav novel already declared non canon, picks up. Anyone thinking this is the book where you see Russ come back or is about to come will be bitterly disappointed. And please spare me the white knight defense that people shouldn't have expected Russ or his return almost shown as a cliffhanger. As I adroitly pointed out in a previous post a novel called "The Lion Awakes" would tease Dark Angels fans into thinking the Lion is finally back. But instead, oh no, it is random events that never show the Lion or even hint at him coming back. This is the exactly the same as a deliberate ruse by BL to trick SW fans into buying the novel.

2. The insane amount of POV switching. Holy Fenris batman! This book had a new POV every four pages or so. It was like if ADD was presented as a novel. Every four pages or so you get a completely random character unrelated to anything else. I wish there was a way to completely skip almost all of these random POV because it meant nothing to the disjointed main narrative. Random gunner on a starship? You can skip every word of that nonsense. Random Night Lord that dies in three pages or so? Skip. Random gothi who brings nothing to the story except some "message" that somehow the Rune Priests wouldn't have gotten? Skip. The only value this waste of words brings is to make Gaius attempt to be a "real" Space Wolf mean more by giving him some regular Ferisians to ineract with. The historian and Custodes POV? Skip. I have not read the other Dawn of Fire novels and have zero interest in reading them. I only read this one because it was Space Wolf related. If these random historians and Custodes mean something to those books then I can see their value as a continuing story. But in THIS book? Skip.

3. Too much time is utterly wasted with random POV stories that are meaningless ( see above point) and the actual crux of the book is SKIPPED OVER. Logan hates Primaris. He mistrusts Bobby G. Yeah, that makes sense. He won't take the Primaris because he doesn't want to owe anything to anyone and be told where to fight. All reasonable things. Except...NOT SHOW IN THE BOOK Logan changes his mind. He has one token encounter with Gaius and we are left to assume that made him change his mind on all this. There is a gap in the story and then a litle later we are told as readers Logan accepted all the Primaris guys, agreed to what Bobby G asked him to do and we're seeing the Space Wolves as a unified chapter attack a completely random space hulk that was introduced at the start of the novel. There is at least a third or more of the novel dedicated to these excruciating back and forth arguments between Space Wolves/Bobby G/random people over primaris being accepted. And when Logan finally changes his mind we don't see any of it or given any damn clue as to why he suddenly changed his mind. I only read on Kindle so I had to go back and forth to see if I somehow missed this. I did not. It is simply does not exist. One moment Logan is taking all the SW with ZERO Primaris to meeting Gaius to suddenly changing his entire mind. Where is the editor for this book? How can you allow that to happen? Unreal. The book title itself is a lie and to further compound the issue with the book being a lie we don't even see why Logan changed his mind about letting in Primaris marines and apparently accepting Bobby G as his commander. Speechless is a polite way to express my sentiment.

This book is completely skippable if you are a die hard SW fan like I am. You literally aren't missing anything. You have no idea if Russ is coming back after reading this. You have no idea why Logan decided to accept Primaris. You are told (not shown, so much for the adage of show don't tell) that this simply happened. Why? We have no idea because the author didn't bother to show this.

The only good part about this book was Gaius and his being a try hard to fit in as a Wolf. If I could wave a magic wand and simply take Gaius out of this novel and have it presented as a novella or two or three short stories I would be very pleased as a fan and reader. Unfortunately you are subjected to about 33 different POV and only about 4 of them actually mean anything to the story contained within the novel. I knew that this book would not have Russ coming back or even hinting as a cliffhanger he was about to return. But that's just me. It was a massive disappointment because the title was completely misleading and it still didn't show why Logan Grimnar finally accepted primaris and Bobby G as his commander.

[bobbybrewster]

I thought the title made perfect sense tbh. How with everything going on with the wolves and how Logan was feeling. I really enjoyed the book

[DarkChaplain]

I don't understand the "too many PoVs" complaint, either.

 

There's Arjac and Njal, who both have a different view of Grimnar and his actions - we don't really get a direct Grimnar PoV. Arjac provides the martial commentary, Njal the spiritual.

 

There's Gaius, who comes into the Rout with high expectations, but gets disillusioned quickly. There's about four brief sections where we get the angle flipped to Ullr Greypelt, always in direct relation to Gaius' fate (in battle against Orks, saved by Gaius' squad during their first encounter; hurrying to "hide" the Primaris; commenting on Gaius' departure etc) - it's never actually a full PoV we follow, only a counter-perspective of the main PoV.

 

There's Hurak of the Unnumbered Sons of Corax, who is this book's equerry to Guilliman - who exists to contextualize Guilliman's role, endeavours and reasoning, while letting us observe Roboute and Colquan, too.

 

There's Historitor Mudire, who is the PoV for the Bucharis-throughline and connects us back to Custodian Vychellan, and gives a non-Astartes external view of the Wolves.

 

And then there's Gytha, who gives us the "life on Fenris is hard"-viewpoint, which also includes the native perspective of the Wolves.

 

I guess you could also list the throwaway Guard and Night Lords leaders from the opening, who hold no relevance to the overall plot and exists for a single action sequence introducing the Primaris reinforcements from the Crusade, which quickly shifts perspective to Gaius and Mudire instead.

 

Every PoV exists to serve the Wolves and the way they are perceived by the galaxy and the reader, excluding the mentioned intro-Night Lord and Guard, who obviously never interact with Fenris at all. The Wolves' martial and spiritual cultures are contrasted both within the Fenris PoVs and outside of them. There are characters that support the status quo of their mindset, and characters that challenge it. There's both awe and disillusionment.

 

Frankly, I would not cut a single one, as they're all tied together into a full tapestry of who the "Space Wolves" actually are at the end of M41.

 

I'd also disagree vehemently with the opinion that Gytha getting a message while the remaining Rune Priests didn't - heck, it's even explained clearly by her early on, and confirmed that this was the case at the end: The Wolves are so focused on their short-term duty, doom and war, they're neglecting the long term. They're discarding / not "receiving" information that doesn't seem relevant in the moment, even when it is vital in the long run.

 

 

This book is completely skippable if you are a die hard SW fan like I am. You literally aren't missing anything. You have no idea if Russ is coming back after reading this. You have no idea why Logan decided to accept Primaris. You are told (not shown, so much for the adage of show don't tell) that this simply happened. Why? We have no idea because the author didn't bother to show this.

 

This is just so mind-boggling to me on a lot of levels. It's probably the defining piece of the Wolves at the start of the Era Indomitus, after Wrath of Magnus etc. Before the hunt for Ghazghkull. It's a fundamental showcase of their mindset, their challenges, weaknesses and strengths, that in no way would I recommend a Wolves fan to skip it.

 

I honestly don't know what you realistically expected (besides the much-maligned non-return of Russ). Did Gav need to stub your nose onto a literal thought process explanation for Grimnar's decision? Again, he's never actually been a Point of View character throughout the book - he is constantly shown through another's lens - including Gytha's, in the end. Every major character around him gives arguments for and against the adoption of Primaris. The discussion with Guilliman, Colquan and Hurak provides big reasons for his shift in perspective, and the final decision when hearing about Gaius? That's just the tipping point - in a sense, his way of sticking to his guns while accepting Primaris anyway, by virtue of Gaius going through the trials on hard mode and having a Gothi vouch for him. His adamant refusal from the beginning, when Castallor arrived, was crumbling halfway through the book, overshadowed by posturing.

 

The themes, symbolism and insights into pivotal characters were all there from the start.

 

But I suppose I might as well argue with Logan about the benefits of Tanna over Mjod, considering

 

And please spare me the white knight defense

Edited March 17, 2022 by DarkChaplain

[Petitioner's City]

There are also only thirteen points of view, four of whom are "short":

 

 

Orad, the captive

Holkenved, night lord (prologue only)

Gaius, the primaris

Arjac

Njal

Vychellan, Custodes

Devan Mudire, historian

Ullr, dragongaze pack leader

Gytha, gothi

Hurak, lieutenant of the unnumbered sons, son of corax

Maquoma, supervisor accordant-minor of a fleet vessel (single chapter)

Ulrik (epilogue pov)

Kalum, a new primaris (epilogue pov)

 

 

And I think Gytha's story is central to the novel - it is her words and the meaning of her journey which convince Logan to relent. As he says upon realising this, "fengr". We *are* shown, not told.

 

 

is the warrior?’ Njal asked, cutting across the woman’s faltering oration. ‘The one that brought you here?’

‘Gaius,’ she said. Suddenly she looked as if she had misspoken, one hand moving to her mouth. ‘I should not speak of him, he feels a deep shame that is not mine to share.’

‘He’s a Primaris Marine,’ said Arjac. ‘One that came back with Krom. Jumped from a Thunderhawk on the way back from the incident at the defence station, presumed dead.’

‘Why is this news to me?’ the Great Wolf said with a frown.

‘He survived,’ said Njal. ‘Killed a Blackmane and was found nearly dead by this woman. I’ve seen what he did through her eyes, a saga worthy of any fireside.’

‘A Primaris survived the journey from the Broken Valleys back to the Aett,’ said Ulrik, chewing over the words and their meaning. He stepped forward and Gytha started to shake at his attention. ‘Where is he now?’

‘He protected me, killed those soldiers,’ said the woman, taking a deep breath. ‘He said he had to confront his wyrd here.’

‘The Imperials are holding him after he went through half a squad of Tempestors,’ added Arjac.

‘Half a squad?’ Grimnar rubbed his chin, unimpressed.

‘He stopped and gave himself up when he realised what he was doing,’ explained Njal.

‘I saw it in his eyes,’ said Gytha, looking at Ulrik and then Grimnar. ‘The same as I see it in yours. The heart-fire. The spirit of the Wolf King.’

Grimnar stroked his beard and looked deep in thought.

‘Fengr,’ he muttered.

‘We will make sure that you are safe,’ Njal told the gothi. ‘Your gift is very valuable.’

‘I promised I would return to the upplanders,’ she replied. ‘Gave my oath.’

‘And you made your oath in full knowledge of what it would mean? They will take you away.’ Njal was uncertain about her future but sensed enough power in her that she might pass the Imperials’ tests. It was rare for a Fenrisian to be subjected to them.

‘I did. Gaius explained.’

‘In that case we must help you honour it,’ said Ulrik. ‘In return, it is not for the Imperials to judge what a warrior of the Chapter does on Fenris. They have no jurisdiction.’

‘It might cause trouble with the primarch,’ said Arjac. ‘Blood spilt.’

‘There will be no trouble with Guilliman,’ declared Logan. By his sides the wolves sat up, alert to a change in his mood. The Great Wolf looked at Gytha, a smile on his lips. ‘Your bravery is incredible and your will is to be respected, as is your oath. Your wyrd has brought you to perform a great service for us. I can see you know that there is a price to pay for what you have done, so let it be a comfort to you that your people will be allowed to settle in Asaheim under our gaze, joining the kaerls of the Sky Warriors. You will be returned to the Scions for travel to the Imperial fleet and their judgement of your powers.’

‘I understand,’ she said, looking at the Great Wolf. Njal was impressed at how steady her gaze was. ‘Thank you for your welcome. I have done as I swore, and I shall not fear Hel.’

‘Indeed not.’ Logan flashed a look to Arjac, who turned and with a gesture escorted Gytha from the hall. When she was gone, the Great Wolf cracked his knuckles and directed his attention to Njal. ‘All the signs point in the same direction. Gottrok. I was right. I’ll need you to break the grip of the warlord-sorcerer.’

‘My rune-brothers will be equal to the task,’ said Njal. ‘I have another labour I must attend to.’

‘What task could be more important?’ demanded Logan. ‘I need my runethegn at my side.’

‘The woman’s visions have revealed to me gaps in my own sight. Recent events have clouded my mind and my eyes, and I must look again with fresh thought. I have become too detached, I think. This woman and her story remind me that I must be at one with our place. I am leaving the Aett to seek the spirits within the world, as the Wolf King once did when the galaxy was split by war.’

‘To what purpose?’ asked Ulrik.

‘I do not know yet. For our salvation, maybe. Or to see the doom we cannot avoid. Perhaps even to hear the call of the Wolf King from across the othersea.’ Njal turned and started down the hall, staff tapping on the ferrocrete. ‘Do not look for me. I will only return when it is the right time ‘You shall be missed on the Gottrok,’ Logan called out.

‘I think not,’ Njal said with a smile. He turned his head and met the Great Wolf’s eye. ‘You will be far too busy to miss me.’

Logan grinned and there was no weight on him; the centuries flowed from his face as he showed his fangs.

‘True,’ he said. ‘There are a lot of battles ahead before we reach the Wolftime.’

 

 

 

It's at that point he realises these offworld sons can do the same as he and his own brethren. That the words come from a gothi, who are deeply respected on Fenris - and one who is so honourble too, as fenris is a culture of oral oath-making too - is of such import to him. He relents, and smiles, and his spirits lift - Gottrek becomes possible, becomes a new crucible that will reforge the chapter.

 

I do think these chapters - and the one I shared above where Njal or Arjac are points of view - are excellent. I do find we learn a lot about Grimnar here, which I appreciate - he's not a cartoon, he's more complex, fickle yes, prideful for sure, but also has humility and honour too.

[Bulwyf]

I had to chuckle at "I don't see why anyone would complain about too many PoV. Here's a long list of them!" 

 

No one is refuting my review or the points I made. The title is blatantly misleading. You have way too many worthless POV and sections in the book. You are forced to read page after page of Logan disagreeing with everyone and then deus ex machina at the end of the book we are told not shown Logan changed his mind. All good here, Bobby G! I'll take the primaris and accept you as my commander. Why? We have no clue because Logan literally goes from telling Bobby G to leave and that the SW as a chapter without the primaris are going to attack a random space hulk to doing the exact opposite. Madness. 

 

Show don't tell. Especially when the meat of this book is about SW accepting primaris or not accepting them. The title of the book should have been something along the lines of "Logan's choice".  Now that BL has wasted the name of the actual event when Russ returns on this poorly constructed novel it can't be used when Russ actually DOES return to the 40k setting. Wolftime II: Your sister is a werewolf and this time Russ does come back would I guess be the title of that novel. Hopefully not written by Thorpe. I don't need more random Night Lords, starship gunners, historians or gothi in another plodding novel. 

 

If someone actually liked this book then God bless. I guess some people like the new Disney star wars movies too. You are entitled to your opinion and that's great. I am entitled to mine. This book was completely skippable by actual Space Wolf fans and frankly should be skipped to avoid disappointment and confusion.

[DarkChaplain]

Honestly, I'd recommend dialing back the toxicity, otherwise one might truly take you for a son of Barbarus. I say this in good humor, but really, it's very counterproductive when you want an actual discussion about the book.

 

But frankly, it just seems like the explanations and thematic direction of the book simply flew over your head, maybe due to the title-gripes. Who knows. You can of course call it a deus ex machina if that floats your boat, but there are numerous pieces of insight all throughout the book that lead up to the eventual decision Grimnar makes by the end. The doubts are on display as much as his pride is. It's a bummer if they didn't appeal to you, but they're there nonetheless. There are reasons given for his conclusion, by way of the book serving as a character study of the Great Wolf through the eyes of his peers, his betters and his lessers. Arguments pro and contra are given by many faces of the Chapter and beyond, and Njal especially serves to provide a view of Logan's doubts.

 

And it makes a lot of sense why Gytha of all people provides the final nail in the coffin of Grimnar's death-wish. She's not just a Gothi, not just bringing news of this honourable Primaris who braved the wilds of Fenris - she's also representing the people of Fenris' expectations of the Sky Warriors, her understanding of what they are, what they represent, and gives Grimnar a reminder of the humans of his world - and beyond - that would suffer greatly if he and his Chapter went extinct. In a sense, it's a wake-up call from this self-serving, selfish dream of Russ coming back for the final showdown of all their lives.

 

At the end of the day, Logan Grimnar has his pride, and his wish for Russ to return - but he's also loyal to the Imperium. Not to Guilliman - something that Roboute does not even expect or desire. Grimnar does not accept Guilliman as his commander - he grudgingly accepts that he's returned and trying to keep the Imperium together for now, so cooperation might be sensible. He's honourbound to the Emperor's people, not to the Legion-Breaker.

Guilliman could trust that Grimnar would do the right thing in the end, because that's who Logan is, under all the bluster.

[Petitioner's City]

Again, beautiful analysis, DC!

[jaxom]

 

At the end of the day, Logan Grimnar has his pride, and his wish for Russ to return - but he's also loyal to the Imperium. Not to Guilliman - something that Roboute does not even expect or desire. Grimnar does not accept Guilliman as his commander - he grudgingly accepts that he's returned and trying to keep the Imperium together for now, so cooperation might be sensible. He's honourbound to the Emperor's people, not to the Legion-Breaker.

Guilliman could trust that Grimnar would do the right thing in the end, because that's who Logan is, under all the bluster.

 

I keep coming back to how well Guilliman in Wolftime is written and connected to what we saw in Dark Imperium and Plague War. Among his dying thoughts are what the Khan and Russ would do without him [brief aside: it's a serious concern. The Lion was gone by the time the Codex Reforms were forced through and Russ was shattered by the Lion's apparent death, less connected to his sons and the Imperium. Guilliman's loss may have been what pushed him to leave.] ... and when Guilliman returns, the last legacy of his brother is almost gone. Out of all the Primarch-demigods, whose the one the Ecclesiarchy and Adeptus Terra aren't going to use liberally? Whose the one who they may not even acknowledge in the works produced for the masses? If the Space Wolves go extinct, Fenris dies with them; too many powerful factions would want to make sure they couldn't come back.

 

And Guilliman can't afford to lose that last reminder. He loved Russ, in his own dissociate-emotions-from-decisions-as-much-as-possible way, even as he was smart enough to know that those primarchs he loved probably didn't feel the same way. Russ, Khan, and Vulkan were the only other three primarchs who loved their homeworlds as much Guilliman loved Ultramar. They were the only three who carried their culture with them beyond how those cultures made war. It must be brutal to hear from Bjorn how much Russ apparently hated him at the end, after he was put in stasis. Yet there's still that aspect of love. If the modern Wolves truly preserve the spirit of Russ, all the things that made Guilliman respect him, then Guilliman has to trust Logan will make the right decision.

Edited March 17, 2022 by jaxom

[Sothalor]

Everybody has their own preferences, what they're looking for, and what they get out of any work of fiction.

[jaxom]

Reading the posts since is last I checked...  Maybe time for everyone to take a break?

[Brother Tyler]

Indeed

[Brother Lunkhead]

=][=

 

GAME ON.... and let's keep it a friendly game.

 

I've two watch words here to keep us going in a positive direction in this discussion. Those words are "TOLERANCE" and "CIVILITY".

 

Tolerance and civility is of course an on going challenge we've faced before in many threads here in the BLACK LIBRARY forum and one that often involves the bitter and better angels of our natures. Our conflict here has involved one dissenting opinion concerning Gav Thorpe's The Wolftime. 

 

Granted, our one nay-sayer is as passionate in his criticism as anyone might be in their praise of a 40K work that they like. He's laid out his reasons as any good reviewer should, and his reasons are no less valid than those who have laid out their reasons for liking it. You may not like those reasons. But just because you don't like those reasons does not invalidate them or make them lesser opinions than your own.

 

Now, it's fine to disagree and it's fine to discuss the points you disagree on. It is NOT fine to insult or belittle those you do not agree with here. For those who need a reminder, this is what the B&C is about:

 

The Bolter & Chainsword exists to help people better enjoy and understand the Warhammer 40,000 hobby and games set in the Warhammer 40,000 universe through constructive discussion.

The principles by which the Bolter & Chainsword operates:

 

We are all here united by our common enjoyment of the hobby.
We are all here as equals.
The differences between us neither define us nor divide us.
The differences make us stronger as individuals and as a community.
This site, this community, welcomes all hobbyists.

 

 

I know I'm preaching to the choir with most of you, but there are always a few that need to be reminded, and that's why we are here.... again.

 

Moments of disagreement can be a springboard to understanding and lively discussion. They don't have to be a deep dive into discord.

 

=][=

Edited March 19, 2022 by Brother Lunkhead

[Petitioner's City]

It must be brutal to hear from Bjorn how much Russ apparently hated him at the end, after he was put in stasis. Yet there's still that aspect of love. If the modern Wolves truly preserve the spirit of Russ, all the things that made Guilliman respect him, then Guilliman has to trust Logan will make the right decision.

This is a striking observation - one I hadn't considered! But I'd hope Guiliman can view beyond even Bjorn here - after all no one really knew Russ, not even (or especially his) sons. I keep remembering the disillusioned Russ of the primarch novella, a Russ who feels alienated from his post-scouring chapter which is perhaps misinterpreting him. Bjorn will have been part of that alienation, actually. His "present" views of the heresy, scouring and early chapter period won't necessarily be authentic after so long, and also will be more so clouded by his own (bitter) interpretations. He's an ancient old man after all, and no matter how cogent an elder is, one always understands that their memory is a deeply flawed thing. I am sure Guiliman will have a historian's approach when dealing with as difficult an oral witness as Bjorn is - someone very cognisant that nothing can be innately trusted, but instead only understood as historiographically contingent (and hence his need for historians also aware of this). I feel that's a side of Guiliman very present since Dark Imperium, and one I appreciate also as a historian

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

 

It must be brutal to hear from Bjorn how much Russ apparently hated him at the end, after he was put in stasis. Yet there's still that aspect of love. If the modern Wolves truly preserve the spirit of Russ, all the things that made Guilliman respect him, then Guilliman has to trust Logan will make the right decision.

This is a striking observation - one I hadn't considered! But I'd hope Guiliman can view beyond even Bjorn here - after all no one really knew Russ, not even (or especially his) sons. I keep remembering the disillusioned Russ of the primarch novella, a Russ who feels alienated from his post-scouring chapter which is perhaps misinterpreting him. Bjorn will have been part of that alienation, actually. His "present" views of the heresy, scouring and early chapter period won't necessarily be authentic after so long, and also will be more so clouded by his own (bitter) interpretations. He's an ancient old man after all, and no matter how cogent an elder is, one always understands that their memory is a deeply flawed thing. I am sure Guiliman will have a historian's approach when dealing with as difficult an oral witness as Bjorn is - someone very cognisant that nothing can be innately trusted, but instead only understood as historiographically contingent (and hence his need for historians also aware of this). I feel that's a side of Guiliman very present since Dark Imperium, and one I appreciate also as a historian

 

 

I don't really remember anyone saying any of that to Guilliman though. They're pretty upfront with their concerns about their independence but Bjorn isn't mentioned as being present at the meeting between Logan and Gulliman. I also interpreted a lot of Bjorn's opinions as his own, not him trying to speak for the wolf king. He mentions the wolf kings' discontent with the legions being split but he doesn't say that Russ hates Guilliman.  He just expects Guilliman to try to take control of the imperium and warns the chapter of it because it would be a betrayal of Russ. It's possible I missed something and if so, I'll re-read the book because a conversation between Bjorn & Guilliman would have been a highlight for me. What I remember is them making Guilliman wait and being very clear that they think there is a catch to this offer. 

 

That said I do like how Guilliman is wrote in the novel because his priorities are clear. He needs the crusade to work, but he also needs the symbols of the imperium to remain strong even if they aren't on the same page.