Two Tank Aces with Creed as Warlord?

[Diagramdude]

Can you forgo determining Creeds required Warlord Trait if you are electing to take a natural tank ace instead? How do these two rules interact?

 

TANK ACES

If an ASTRA MILITARUM CHARACTER is your Warlord, rather than determining a Warlord Trait for that model, you can instead select one Tank Ace ability for an ASTRA MILITARUM VEHICLE model from your army.

 

 

NAMED CHARACTERS AND WARLORD TRAITS

If a named character with a specific regiment keyword is your Warlord, they must be given the associated Warlord Trait. For example, Colonel ‘Iron Hand’ Straken must take the Catachan ‘Lead From the Front’ Warlord Trait as he has the CATACHAN keyword.

 

If Commissar Yarrick is your Warlord, he must have the Master of Command Warlord Trait.

 

 

I want the two CP from having Creed as my warlord, I don’t want superior tactical training, I want a natural tank ace and maybe a second with the stratagem. Is it possible to learn this power?

[sairence]

Not possible unfortunately. As the rule you quoted says, named characters have to take their associated WL-trait if you make them the WL. It's not optional, therefore you can't decide not to choose it.

 

It's a specific override of named character rules to the tank ace's general rule of being able to give up a WL-trait for an ace-trait, and specific exceptions always trump more general rules.

 

I suspect we'd see a lot more armies lead by Creed otherwise, especially with the Cadian supplement.

Edited November 12, 2021 by sairence

[Diagramdude]

I've seen multiple sources say this is illegal, so nvm shucks

[Hiroitchi]

umm if creed dies use Field Promotion and make a tank commander a Tank Ace, lol

[OldWherewolf]

Yep, people have been taking a single Lt  as the WL (no WLT), then using him (25 points) as a missile.  When he dies, you select another model as your WL and generate a WLT.  That way you have 2 Tank Aces and a model with a WLT. 

 

But as stated, it doesn't work with Creed since he has to have his WLT at the start of the game.

[sairence]

Yep, people have been taking a single Lt as the WL (no WLT), then using him (25 points) as a missile. When he dies, you select another model as your WL and generate a WLT. That way you have 2 Tank Aces and a model with a WLT.

 

But as stated, it doesn't work with Creed since he has to have his WLT at the start of the game.

Actually, Creed's datasheet says nothing about the start of the game. Just if your army is battleforged and he's your WL, you gain two CP.

 

So Field Commander works just fine on him to get the extra CP, as all his conditions are met at the time you use the strat.

 

However, you can't gain an ace trait mid game, as that rule specifically states you do it before the battle.

Edited December 7, 2021 by sairence

[Diagramdude]

OMG this is big brain!!! Totally gave up on this thread and figured there was no way…

 

BUT

 

Make a platoon commander warlord, skip trait, take two tank aces. Creed is in the army.

 

Suicide the platoon commander, use field promotion on creed for 1cp. Immediately profit one CP from “Tactical Genius: If your army is Battle-forged, you receive an additional 2 Command Points if Lord Castellan Creed is your Warlord” and gain Superior Tactical Training on Creed as well.

 

This of course isn’t perfect as you need to take a platoon commander tax and have him go die, but he could die for the emperor scoring Engage or Octarius Data or such like. But you do still get to take two aces, still get half of creeds bonus and have creed start proccing extra orders from STT.

[OldWherewolf]

Nice call!

 

That point tax is worth it, especially if you're in a trading game.  Just throw that 25 point Lt onto an objective as your trade.  Most cheap troops are 40+ points for the squad, so that's an easy trade-up.

[Diagramdude]

Considering Cadians have access to Never Give Up, Never Surrender! to give a unit temporary obsec, the suicidal platoon commander could potentially flip an objective if the opponent is holding it with a non obsec unit. That would definitely be worth the 25pt and maybe worth holding until later in the game. Doesn't have to be a turn 1 suicide, the +1 CP from this trick is still valuable later on in the game. 

[tychobi]

Even if legal this maneuver seems like a lot of work for 1cp. Also seems to be against the spirit of the rules. At least measure the cost of raising eyebrows as your opponents realize you are "that guy" against any slim advantage you may gain.

[Shamansky]

Even if legal this maneuver seems like a lot of work for 1cp. Also seems to be against the spirit of the rules. At least measure the cost of raising eyebrows as your opponents realize you are "that guy" against any slim advantage you may gain.

Well, when i was actively playing in tournaments here, i met only few people who were not squeezing every advantage out of rules. So i don't care about someones eyebrows. But I do agree that all the fuss is not worth it to get only 1 cp

Edited December 15, 2021 by Shamansky

[OldWherewolf]

It could be considered a 'gotcha' moment, but those are usually addressed at the beginning of the game, where you say "hey, I have this 1cp stratagem that can turn any unit ObSec for 1 turn".   Just like when you ask your opponent about heroic interventions/double-shoot/advance-and-charge/etc. stuff.

 

9th is far too complex to just assume your opponent knows everything about every army.

[sairence]

Tbf, denying the WL-kill point on Assassination and getting an extra CP midgame are fairly mild gotchas.

[Diagramdude]

I think a lot of Cadian players are bringing Creed already for the 3 orders with a 12” range, it just sucks that making him the natural warlord for the bonus 2cp precludes you from taking two tank aces.

 

This maneuver lets you gain 1CP so half of that bonus during the game while taking two tank aces, and you first have to suicide your platoon commander warlord to do it.

 

When you factor in where Guard sit near the base of the competitive totem pole, this is definitely not a “that guy” move.