Where left to go?

[Brother Kraskor]

I love the idea of a Primaris drop pod

 

Yes please!

[Prot]

(Idaho) I know we briefly touched on this in the UM forum, but I think GW has now had time to let two things sink in:

 

1. People still love first born. And the rules reflect they know that. In many, many (Game play) terms, they are still superior. If you take Bladeguard and put them up in points. I think that's the cream of the Primaris Crop personally.

 

2. Primaris are fine models to me, but there is room for both! GW surely have learned this! 

 

As we are pointing out, the Primaris line has no shortage of duds. I've tried them all, and unless you have an angle, most just don't perform. Meanwhile we see: First born bikers, Devs, Termies, Vanguard Vets, Rhino's, Drop Pods, attack bikes, and even Whirlwinds/Speeders still see a good fit on the table top.

 

So taking the above into account.... I cannot imagine GW not taking this and running with a retro-refit of firstborn. On the table their 2 wounds anyway. This also is the case for Chaos and fits the theme (of some marines going chaos). 

 

GW has a huge win just sitting here and all they have to do is hit the design table, and re-release many existing models. The problem is they don't want proxies. GW's newer (last 5 years) policy to come up with a new model that you must use. For Chaos Havoks it was the Chaingun. For Dev's it could be... Volkite Cannons. They just need to do this down the line, and they win.

 

That's my hope anyway. 

 

For the record I love both lines. I love the whole genre, the Heresy stuff, fiction, the Primaris stuff. I have no problem with any of it. (I guess I'm GW's ultimate customer/sucker (!?))

 

That's just me

[Karhedron]

I think that in trying to avoid replacing Firstborn units 1-for-1 with Primaris, GW actually make many of the Primaris units too niche to the point that they struggle to function on the tabletop. There is nothing wrong with the range and Primaris could easily be fixed with rules tweaks or points drops.

[phandaal]

I think that in trying to avoid replacing Firstborn units 1-for-1 with Primaris, GW actually make many of the Primaris units too niche to the point that they struggle to function on the tabletop. There is nothing wrong with the range and Primaris could easily be fixed with rules tweaks or points drops.

 

That is a problem with the single load-out philosophy for Primaris. GW probably did it for simplicity's sake and to reduce costs on their boxed sets, but they are now left with having to replace the flexibility of OG Space Marine squads with a unique Primaris squad to represent each facet of those original squads.

[Sergeant Centurion]

Primaris with missile launchers, in gravis armor, thats what the range need for me.

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

I would be quite happy if they saved up the next big primaris realise until 10th and focused on Xenos and guard for a bit. Some of those models are really dated.

 

I would like in the mean time the original supplements to be updated as they are really showing their age. Roboute needs a rules change too. Maybe one or two Rubicon heroes would be nice too, there are still some special characters that need the upgrade.

 

As for where's left to go...terminators. I would like a drop pod but I feel the old model is really iconic and still fit for purpose...just let primaris use it.

 

I think that's plan the rumor dump we had a while ago, didn't mention any primaris. Looked more like craftworld Eldar and Chaos Space getting big pushes with some other armies mentioned as being design wise ready. With how accurate these rumors are I can't imagine any new primaris anytime soon.

 

(Idaho) I know we briefly touched on this in the UM forum, but I think GW has now had time to let two things sink in:

 

1. People still love first born. And the rules reflect they know that. In many, many (Game play) terms, they are still superior. If you take Bladeguard and put them up in points. I think that's the cream of the Primaris Crop personally.

 

2. Primaris are fine models to me, but there is room for both! GW surely have learned this! 

 

As we are pointing out, the Primaris line has no shortage of duds. I've tried them all, and unless you have an angle, most just don't perform. Meanwhile we see: First born bikers, Devs, Termies, Vanguard Vets, Rhino's, Drop Pods, attack bikes, and even Whirlwinds/Speeders still see a good fit on the table top.

 

So taking the above into account.... I cannot imagine GW not taking this and running with a retro-refit of firstborn. On the table their 2 wounds anyway. This also is the case for Chaos and fits the theme (of some marines going chaos). 

 

GW has a huge win just sitting here and all they have to do is hit the design table, and re-release many existing models. The problem is they don't want proxies. GW's newer (last 5 years) policy to come up with a new model that you must use. For Chaos Havoks it was the Chaingun. For Dev's it could be... Volkite Cannons. They just need to do this down the line, and they win.

 

That's my hope anyway. 

 

For the record I love both lines. I love the whole genre, the Heresy stuff, fiction, the Primaris stuff. I have no problem with any of it. (I guess I'm GW's ultimate customer/sucker (!?))

 

That's just me

 

I agree with this, and I think rumored HH box is meant to show that GW has plans for firstborn.

 

 

I think that in trying to avoid replacing Firstborn units 1-for-1 with Primaris, GW actually make many of the Primaris units too niche to the point that they struggle to function on the tabletop. There is nothing wrong with the range and Primaris could easily be fixed with rules tweaks or points drops.

 

That is a problem with the single load-out philosophy for Primaris. GW probably did it for simplicity's sake and to reduce costs on their boxed sets, but they are now left with having to replace the flexibility of OG Space Marine squads with a unique Primaris squad to represent each facet of those original squads.

 

 

I think the single load out is meant to create a churn. In 3rd edition I started with Craftworld Eldar and I've always loved aspect warriors, and its always felt like they push certain types in some editions and then in the next edition another option becomes better. 

[Brother Kraskor]

 

I think that in trying to avoid replacing Firstborn units 1-for-1 with Primaris, GW actually make many of the Primaris units too niche to the point that they struggle to function on the tabletop. There is nothing wrong with the range and Primaris could easily be fixed with rules tweaks or points drops.

 

That is a problem with the single load-out philosophy for Primaris. GW probably did it for simplicity's sake and to reduce costs on their boxed sets, but they are now left with having to replace the flexibility of OG Space Marine squads with a unique Primaris squad to represent each facet of those original squads.

 

 

Single load-out harks back to pre-Heresy style marines though.

[lansalt]

I think the single weapons load-out was FW's strategy to sell more kits/early vision of big marine blobs, plus the fact of pre-8th ed. rules not allowing easy split fire.

 

I agree that several primaris releases have been duds, or solutions in search of a problem at best (reivers). Others, like Erradicators/Eliminators and the insistence in 3 man squads seem to have been part of a deliberate strategy of shrinking the space required for the game.

 

Anyway the classic tactical squad must be updated some day. Intercessors and the other special troop options as the default just feels wrong.

[Captain Idaho]

@ Prot: I'm certainly not bemoaning Primaris at the expense of Firstborn. I'm just being clear that new Space Marines will see Primaris rather than.

 

My position, even thought I'd love to see new Firstborn models on a personal level, is I just don't want any Marines stuff for 40K period. Not for a while. It just feels exhausted, you know? Saturated.

 

I'm fatigued and I'm a long term Ultramarines player.

 

But also I raise the question, what will we see next and in what capacity? I doubt a new Codex next year but maybe another Psychic Awakening style update?

 

I doubt very much GW will leave Marines alone for longer than 6 months.

[WARMASTER_]

 

Haven’t read everyone’s responses fully but my guess is more chapter specific releases and then generic chapter veteran kits and Ven Dreads like how we saw in 2013

Primaris dreads kill their pilots like the Levi dreads do. It's not possible to have a venerable redemptor because the occupants die from its use. Double gun and double melee redemptors varients would make more sense.

Nah it’s a easy fix lore wise, besides it only says most pilots get burnt out not all, you can quite easily say it’s a more advanced Dreadnought that doesn’t burn them out so fast or only the most strong of will have survived x about of time so now they’re Venerable, look at Carab the risen it’s a leviathan character dread and possible the best model forge work make apart from the DA legion leviathan

 

Edit: I’ll correct myself it’s the Castigator Knight … that’s the best

Edited November 17, 2021 by BladeOfVengeance

[phandaal]

 

 

 

 

That is a problem with the single load-out philosophy for Primaris. GW probably did it for simplicity's sake and to reduce costs on their boxed sets, but they are now left with having to replace the flexibility of OG Space Marine squads with a unique Primaris squad to represent each facet of those original squads.

 

 

I think the single load out is meant to create a churn. In 3rd edition I started with Craftworld Eldar and I've always loved aspect warriors, and its always felt like they push certain types in some editions and then in the next edition another option becomes better. 

 

 

GW certainly does not mind selling more models. Lots of reasons why they would want to have single loadout squads.

 

As far as OG Marines goes, GW has to see how popular they still are. A truescale model refresh would probably bring in quite a bit of revenue.

[MegaVolt87]

 

 

Haven’t read everyone’s responses fully but my guess is more chapter specific releases and then generic chapter veteran kits and Ven Dreads like how we saw in 2013

Primaris dreads kill their pilots like the Levi dreads do. It's not possible to have a venerable redemptor because the occupants die from its use. Double gun and double melee redemptors varients would make more sense.

Redemptor dreads kill their occupants the same way the Rubicon Primaris kills half the Marines who try it.

 

"This guy is so tough, even a Redemptor Dreadnought can't kill him!"

 

*Release new model with crazy good stats because of his toughness*

 

 

I hope not. GW would only further dilute the 40k lore further. I was actually hoping the new plasma and melta variants would degrade the primaris like the old legion destroyers. Stuff like that is a good nod to the past and a good counter weight to new tech pressed into service for primaris. They (primaris) need a harder edge to them IMO, not quite full thunder warriors but close/ a step down. Fowards, but backwards for new Astartes technology and Primaris would be the way to take them more seriously in the lore. 

[WARMASTER_]

 

 

 

 

Haven’t read everyone’s responses fully but my guess is more chapter specific releases and then generic chapter veteran kits and Ven Dreads like how we saw in 2013

Primaris dreads kill their pilots like the Levi dreads do. It's not possible to have a venerable redemptor because the occupants die from its use. Double gun and double melee redemptors varients would make more sense.

Redemptor dreads kill their occupants the same way the Rubicon Primaris kills half the Marines who try it.

 

"This guy is so tough, even a Redemptor Dreadnought can't kill him!"

 

*Release new model with crazy good stats because of his toughness*

I hope not. GW would only further dilute the 40k lore further. I was actually hoping the new plasma and melta variants would degrade the primaris like the old legion destroyers. Stuff like that is a good nod to the past and a good counter weight to new tech pressed into service for primaris. They (primaris) need a harder edge to them IMO, not quite full thunder warriors but close/ a step down. Fowards, but backwards for new Astartes technology and Primaris would be the way to take them more seriously in the lore.

It wouldn’t “Dilute” the lore though since rouge traded GW has merely added new lore and then ignored the older lore it doesn’t want anymore there’s no hard and fast cannon in Warhammer, And besides it literally says most pilots get burnt out..”Most” so it’s an easy fix

 

They don’t really need a harder edge though they’re just Astartes? They’re still 8(ish) feet tall psycho indoctrinated semi religious space knights… They wear power armour, use Bolters Chainswords, plasma (you name it) still ride around in rhino chassis tanks (with some grav plates stuck on) Still Venerate an immortal rotting corse god on a golden throne there’s nothing “new” it’s all a slight face lift

[Lord_Ikka]

My guess is this:

 

1) We see Primaris-variant units for Chapters. This doesn't mean a 1-to-1 replacement, but have something similar to a chapter's Firstborn specialty squads get a Primaris-ing. Example of that currently would be the Hounds of Morkai for the SW. I could see a souped-up Bladeguard for the DA, a melee-oriented Omnis (Suppressor suits) for BA, and a re-done version of the Hounds for SW (make them better killers in general/give them weapon upgrades). These will be released slowly, but steadily through next year. 

 

2) All the rumors currently are saying that Chaos/World Eaters are getting a new codex/line shortly. If true, my assumption would be that we see a campaign to stop the WE and that several chapters get updates through there, most likely the First Founding  chapters that don't get codex supplements normally (Ultras, Sallies, Raven Guard, etc...) with minor tweaks to their traits and specific strats. I don't see GW doing another full set of codex supplements for those chapters, it's not necessary as the old supplements just need minor tweaks rather than full re-writes. 

 

3) There are some units that are not in the Primaris line that could be, most of which have been covered (biker libs/capts and so forth) by others already, but I also think that there is a unit that stands out to me as not having anything done to it since coming out in a big box. The Suppressors have not been individually released and every other unit in their Shadowspear, or now Combat Patrol, box has an individual kit release. This says something to me- I'm intrigued what can be done with them, whether they get a different weapon (a la the Eliminators las-fusil) or an upgraded weapon (similar to the Eradicators heavy melta rifle). Something needs to be done with them and I'm not sure what will happen, but I'm interested to see what it could be.

[MegaVolt87]

 

 

 

 

Haven’t read everyone’s responses fully but my guess is more chapter specific releases and then generic chapter veteran kits and Ven Dreads like how we saw in 2013

Primaris dreads kill their pilots like the Levi dreads do. It's not possible to have a venerable redemptor because the occupants die from its use. Double gun and double melee redemptors varients would make more sense.

Redemptor dreads kill their occupants the same way the Rubicon Primaris kills half the Marines who try it.

 

"This guy is so tough, even a Redemptor Dreadnought can't kill him!"

 

*Release new model with crazy good stats because of his toughness*

I hope not. GW would only further dilute the 40k lore further. I was actually hoping the new plasma and melta variants would degrade the primaris like the old legion destroyers. Stuff like that is a good nod to the past and a good counter weight to new tech pressed into service for primaris. They (primaris) need a harder edge to them IMO, not quite full thunder warriors but close/ a step down. Fowards, but backwards for new Astartes technology and Primaris would be the way to take them more seriously in the lore.

It wouldn’t “Dilute” the lore though since rouge traded GW has merely added new lore and then ignored the older lore it doesn’t want anymore there’s no hard and fast cannon in Warhammer, And besides it literally says most pilots get burnt out..”Most” so it’s an easy fix

 

They don’t really need a harder edge though they’re just Astartes? They’re still 8(ish) feet tall psycho indoctrinated semi religious space knights… They wear power armour, use Bolters Chainswords, plasma (you name it) still ride around in rhino chassis tanks (with some grav plates stuck on) Still Venerate an immortal rotting corse god on a golden throne there’s nothing “new” it’s all a slight face lift

 

 

 

40k Firstborn are a pale reflection of their legion era, advanced technologies forgotten, many things relegated to relic status, powerful technologies that have a cost to the weilder for their use etc. Primaris get some of that, then its waved away- oh the rubicon is actually now super safe, the tech is mass produced and accessible with little drawbacks while also being super potent etc.  A forwards but backwards theme with primaris, building in more flaws would make them a ton better in implementation. They are just far too perfect at the moment. Having venerable redemptors erodes further something that is a nice detail/ bit of lore for primaris. If they are too perfect, they will just be like a bad fan fiction or Matt Ward lore. 

Edited November 17, 2021 by MegaVolt87

[Son of Sacrifice]

I can't go back to first born, I can't accept marines that don't have an abdomen. I just can't do it.

 

Rescale classic marines alongside an updated Badab War campaign book. Introducing plastic upgrade kits for select participating chapters.

[WARMASTER_]

 

 

They don’t really need a harder edge though they’re just Astartes? They’re still 8(ish) feet tall psycho indoctrinated semi religious space knights… They wear power armour, use Bolters Chainswords, plasma (you name it) still ride around in rhino chassis tanks (with some grav plates stuck on) Still Venerate an immortal rotting corse god on a golden throne there’s nothing “new” it’s all a slight face lift

 

 

40k Firstborn are a pale reflection of their legion era, advanced technologies forgotten, many things relegated to relic status, powerful technologies that have a cost to the weilder for their use etc. Primaris get some of that, then its waved away- oh the rubicon is actually now super safe, the tech is mass produced and accessible with little drawbacks while also being super potent etc. A forwards but backwards theme with primaris, building in more flaws would make them a ton better in implementation. They are just far too perfect at the moment. Having venerable redemptors erodes further something that is a nice detail/ bit of lore for primaris. If they are too perfect, they will just be like a bad fan fiction or Matt Ward lore.

I’m not really getting your point? The Primaris aren’t technology more advanced than the the legiones Astartes either? The legiones / adeptus Astartes are just two very different bodies that are hard to compare (The legions being much more like soldiers and the Adeptus being more more like pseudo religious crusading knights) but the latter doesn’t pale in comparison they’re just different products of different environments, although there differences are an interesting topic for discussion

 

I’m also not seeing this tech that comes at a cost? Plasma still Back fires? That’s the only thing I can think of that would come at a cost but it still absolutely does

 

I feel like if all the lore you come across about Primaris is Reddit threads or 4chan memes they might seem “perfect” but they’re literally just Astartes in the lore, with all the flaws their older brothers have

[MegaVolt87]

I would question you the same, you seem to only be familiar with firstborn by reference of 3rd party summeries if you believe primaris are a even match for flaws of the firstborn as primaris are currently depicted. Primaris are quite "perfect" in the context of super soldiers/ transhumans.

 

Regardless, there won't be a real end of primaris content, a break in releases at best.

[Dark Shepherd]

Weve had new editions of Kill Team and AOS this year. HH box was knocked back from Occtober to February. There HAS to be a big money spinning release this summer and by then if theyve gone 18 months plus without releasing new Marines....

[Captain Idaho]

Well the tech progression of Marines is likely something of a different topic eh.

 

Regarding what's next; it ain't gonna be no Firstborn. Heresy yeah sure, but GW are done with them in 40K from the perspective of new models. The word Primaris is easier to copyright after all.

 

That's not what this thread is about really. I mean rather every Chapter has a 9th edition Codex to draw upon, though the supplements might be 8th.

 

The real question is at what cost to the rest of the game? It seems half the resources of GW are focused on Marines, though that probably isn't quite the case but it is definitely disproportionate.

[WrathOfTheLion]

Is it at cost to the rest of the game? We've seen some good support for Xenos with Orks and Necrons recently, and Eldar possibly on the horizon. Chaos has been well underserved comparatively in 9E, with no major releases, but we can assume CSM will have a substantial release as rumored for that reason.

 

I'd be interested to see range releases plotted over time. Maybe it's just perception, but to me it looks like non-marine factions have seen a large increase in rate in 9E.

 

As for further Firstborn, I'm certain they're open to change based on inputs. If the kits still sell relatively well, and the next HH launch with more proportionate armor is successful, then that may lead them to doing something with historical gaming with them, or even just adding kits to 40k for them.

 

imo, with the current setting, it makes sense for them to push the Primaris side and revisit the Classic lineup when they have the infra to handle campaigns outside of the current 'now' in the timeline. They're going to be the most successful if they can show why you 'need' both, such as if they have campaign series going back before M41/M42. An easy way to sell on both is to have some cool stuff going on in M36 or something like that and have a reason for people to want to play there.

Edited November 17, 2021 by WrathOfTheLion

[Plague _Lord]

I would like to see a big lore progression that would allow the divide of primaris and firstborn into seperate codeci. This would give us a more unified look for space marine armies and could still be allies via keywords.

 

For me the best thing would a non chaos schism - for example The Lion comes back from his daydreams and sees primaris as abominations and declares independance and most of the firstborn side with him - Gabriel Seth as an example. It would make more sense to see so many marine vs marine battles everywhere, while not having as grand implications for the seeting as the horus heresy (no chaos so the rebels would still be imperium aligned, albeit against gulliman and the primaris).

 

I think the codex divide would be good for both firstborn (could easily get cheaper without having to worry about internal balance vs primaris stuff) and primaris (no more vanguard vets means primaris players would love to buy some assault jump pack units and so on).

[phandaal]

For me the best thing would a non chaos schism - for example The Lion comes back from his daydreams and sees primaris as abominations and declares independance and most of the firstborn side with him - Gabriel Seth as an example. It would make more sense to see so many marine vs marine battles everywhere, while not having as grand implications for the seeting as the horus heresy (no chaos so the rebels would still be imperium aligned, albeit against gulliman and the primaris).

 

That would not be good lore. Would go so far as to say that would be very bad lore.

 

Lion El'Jonson is at least as loyal to the Imperium as Gulliman, and the Unforgiven have already accepted Primaris into the Inner Circle.

 

We do not need to take a cleaver to 40k lore to give us a reason to fight our Space Marines against each other on a tabletop.

[Helias_Tancred]

Two things are still to happen .... the codec compliant chapters need their supplements like they received in 8th edition, and you're right there will be a second Codex Space Marines.

[Lord_Ikka]

Two things are still to happen .... the codec compliant chapters need their supplements like they received in 8th edition, and you're right there will be a second Codex Space Marines.

Do they really need full supplements for each codex-compliant chapters though? As of yet, the fluff hasn't advanced far enough to give them anything more from the 8th supplements and it seems like just having a "First Founding" supplement that covers them would work. Make it have all of their updated special rules, strats, and any needed datasheets, release it alongside whenever the SM 2.0 codex drops- just include more fluff about each chapter than what is included in the main SM 2.0 codex. That way we don't have another six+ Imperium codices (that really would cover nothing new) and instead work on the Xenos/Chaos codices that need major re-works.