Where left to go?

[Dark Shepherd]

They could fit all the rules etc for the 6 in the one book. Enough basic fluff in core marine codex. But that wouldnt be the most profitable and youd get complaints about having to buy 2 full codexes and not 1 plus a supplement

[Subtleknife]

 

 

Two things are still to happen .... the codec compliant chapters need their supplements like they received in 8th edition, and you're right there will be a second Codex Space Marines.

Do they really need full supplements for each codex-compliant chapters though? As of yet, the fluff hasn't advanced far enough to give them anything more from the 8th supplements and it seems like just having a "First Founding" supplement that covers them would work. Make it have all of their updated special rules, strats, and any needed datasheets, release it alongside whenever the SM 2.0 codex drops- just include more fluff about each chapter than what is included in the main SM 2.0 codex. That way we don't have another six+ Imperium codices (that really would cover nothing new) and instead work on the Xenos/Chaos codices that need major re-works.

Yes they do. The fluff advances as far as GW says it advances so I dont agree with that point. There is plenty of opportunity to expand existing lore or add tantalising developments.

 

Relics need full re-write, crusade rules need adding and some characters need a full on rework - Gman for example.

 

8th showed that GW dont view the first founding as generic chapters and I applaud them making them different. This was a big step forward. I dont want to go back to the proverbial dark ages which you are suggesting.

Edited November 20, 2021 by Subtleknife

[TheNewman]

Not to mention the matched play rules. None of the main codex secondary objectives work particularly well for White Scars for example, they'd really like to have some that fit their playstyle better.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I really feel bad for Scars… Edited November 21, 2021 by Black Blow Fly

[Lord_Ikka]

 

 

Two things are still to happen .... the codec compliant chapters need their supplements like they received in 8th edition, and you're right there will be a second Codex Space Marines.

Do they really need full supplements for each codex-compliant chapters though? As of yet, the fluff hasn't advanced far enough to give them anything more from the 8th supplements and it seems like just having a "First Founding" supplement that covers them would work. Make it have all of their updated special rules, strats, and any needed datasheets, release it alongside whenever the SM 2.0 codex drops- just include more fluff about each chapter than what is included in the main SM 2.0 codex. That way we don't have another six+ Imperium codices (that really would cover nothing new) and instead work on the Xenos/Chaos codices that need major re-works.

Yes they do. The fluff advances as far as GW says it advances so I dont agree with that point. There is plenty of opportunity to expand existing lore or add tantalising developments.

 

Relics need full re-write, crusade rules need adding and some characters need a full on rework - Gman for example.

 

8th showed that GW dont view the first founding as generic chapters and I applaud them making them different. This was a big step forward. I dont want to go back to the proverbial dark ages which you are suggesting.

 

Not suggesting anything of the sort, as far as making First Founding generic. I just don't think we need another six supplements when one bigger supplement could work just as well, as far as the rules go. Fluff really is less important than the rules and even if GW updates or advances the narrative, it doesn't require a full supplement to do so- especially since the last supplements didn't have a whole lot of new fluff (roughly two pages covering the Era Indomidus and another with that era's stuff on the general timeline). 

 

Let's look at how many pages of actual rules would be needed for each First Founding Chapter (excluding datasheets), based on what was in the 8th ed supplements-

Abilities- 1 page, lays out super-doctrine and successor rules

Warlord Traits- 1 page

Relics- 2 pages, including Special-Issue Wargear

Stratagems- 2 pages

Psychic Powers- 1 page

Add Secondary Objectives- 1 page

Add Crusade Rules - 6 pages, which would include Agendas, Requisitions, Battle Traits, Honorifics, and Relics

 

15 pages total, for one chapter. 90 pages total, add in another 2 pages per chapter for a little fluff and 5-6 for standard intro/table of contents/outro stuff and you have a  110 page supplement without the datasheets, which would add some more (21 separate datasheets using the 8th ed supplements, which can probably be condensed to around 14 pages). So a rough page count would be 125-ish pages. That's right in-between the largest of the supplements (Ultras at 87 pages) and the 9th ed SM codex at 213. You could even add in more fluff for each that is specifically focused on newer conflicts (rather than the old fluff that has been printed for years) and come in under 200 pages. I'm in the US so the current SM codex is $50 while an 8th ed supplement is $30. Make the cost of the combined supplement $40 and you'll make even more profit than doing six different ones- everyone still has to buy one but you don't have to do the design/print work of six which lessens the expense. Frankly, I'd love to have this sort of thing come out in tandem with the SM 2.0 codex

 

Do I think this will happen- No. It is too radical of an idea for GW. Multiple supplements will most likely happen, which is disappointing in a lot of ways because they will drip-feed them along, just like last time (though this time because of shipping delays it could take even longer, without two supplements showing up each month). 

[Son of Sacrifice]

I wouldn't buy another supplement to run my Fists or Raven Guard. I'd rather just use custom chapter rules.

[Subtleknife]

@Lord_Ikka then I am paying more for a supplement where 90 percent of the stuff I dont want. I would rather pay for something where I want 100 percent of it. You discount fluff but it important to quite a lot of people.

 

If black templars or space wolves get their own supplement then so should Fists, Ultras or Ravens etc.

 

I dont think we will agree so I shall leave this conversation here but I would feel let down by GW if they went with your approach after the advances they made with supplements with 8th and have so far done in 9th.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I’m sure there will eventually be new supplements.

[Lord_Ikka]

@Lord_Ikka then I am paying more for a supplement where 90 percent of the stuff I dont want. I would rather pay for something where I want 100 percent of it. You discount fluff but it important to quite a lot of people.

If black templars or space wolves get their own supplement then so should Fists, Ultras or Ravens etc.

I dont think we will agree so I shall leave this conversation here but I would feel let down by GW if they went with your approach after the advances they made with supplements with 8th and have so far done in 9th.

I understand your opinion, I just am in a different space. I enjoy the fluff and lore, but would rather have a concise, multiple-chapter rules supplement than multiple individual supplements. Anyway, I appreciate your opinion and the opinions of those who share it. Edited November 22, 2021 by Lord_Ikka

[Helias_Tancred]

Games Workshop chose the most difficult fork in the road. 

 

With the concept of their primaris marines they choose to create a brand new wheel (in figurative terms) for their new line of models, vs. the other choice, of simply taking existing marine units/concepts and upgrading them to primaris versions.

 

Now that we have the benefit of several years hindsight, I'm not convinced they made the right choice. They definitely choose the harder road that involved more risk. I would have gone with the tried and true, what was already proven a success. Primaris'd versions of old units/models/concepts would have sold better, and stuck to the better concept of how marines strategize and fight. That would have made a lot of down stream issues easier too such as game design, balance, etc.  Some of the new primaris units and concepts are definite winners, and would be nice additions to an already proven line of marine units .... but as their own line? A few years later I'm still not fully convinced, and of course thats mostly a personal opinion based on my own biases. You have a vision, an understanding for a beloved faction, and change is not always welcomed.

 

As a hobbyist I love the primaris line, better than the older line, they're better sculpts and easier to paint. They are also more correctly sized.

 

But for everything else? I'm going with what's comfortable and established over what is new. Just give me new models and sculpts.

 

Funny fact, most of my 9th edition Blood Angels lists are a majority of primaris units lol. ... and published lore, novels, etc help bond over the gap between old and new admittedly. 

Edited November 22, 2021 by Helias Tancred

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

 

@Lord_Ikka then I am paying more for a supplement where 90 percent of the stuff I dont want. I would rather pay for something where I want 100 percent of it. You discount fluff but it important to quite a lot of people.

If black templars or space wolves get their own supplement then so should Fists, Ultras or Ravens etc.

I dont think we will agree so I shall leave this conversation here but I would feel let down by GW if they went with your approach after the advances they made with supplements with 8th and have so far done in 9th.

I understand your opinion, I just am in a different space. I enjoy the fluff and lore, but would rather have a concise, multiple-chapter rules supplement than multiple individual supplements. Anyway, I appreciate your opinion and the opinions of those who share it.

 

 

I get where your coming from Lord_Ikka but to be honest I really feel that if GW wants their app to succeed it needs to have all the rules anyways. So if each fraction is getting just a couple of pages of rules than that should just be on the app, and the books and fluff shouldn't change. 

 

I purchased a yearlong subscription for the assassin model, and there really isn't a way I'll stay subscriber unless they branch out to this where I can look at all of the rules. I would still probably buy the books because they're a lot easier to read, but if your only concerned about rules that's what you should push for.

 

Unless you hate tech.

 

 

Games Workshop chose the most difficult fork in the road. 

 

With the concept of their primaris marines they choose to create a brand new wheel (in figurative terms) for their new line of models, vs. the other choice, of simply taking existing marine units/concepts and upgrading them to primaris versions.

 

Now that we have the benefit of several years hindsight, I'm not convinced they made the right choice. They definitely choose the harder road that involved more risk. I would have gone with the tried and true, what was already proven a success. Primaris'd versions of old units/models/concepts would have sold better, and stuck to the better concept of how marines strategize and fight. That would have made a lot of down stream issues easier too such as game design, balance, etc.  Some of the new primaris units and concepts are definite winners, and would be nice additions to an already proven line of marine units .... but as their own line? A few years later I'm still not fully convinced, and of course thats mostly a personal opinion based on my own biases. You have a vision, an understanding for a beloved faction, and change is not always welcomed.

 

As a hobbyist I love the primaris line, better than the older line, they're better sculpts and easier to paint. They are also more correctly sized.

 

But for everything else? I'm going with what's comfortable and established over what is new. Just give me new models and sculpts.

 

Funny fact, most of my 9th edition Blood Angels lists are a majority of primaris units lol. ... and published lore, novels, etc help bond over the gap between old and new admittedly. 

 

I honestly think they choose an easier path. Direct replacements would have ruffled even more feathers, and as a space wolf player who has transitioned to Primaris I can assure you that I wouldn't have made the same decision. The play style wouldn't have changed enough, so they would have had to make my old models illegal. I wouldn't buy anything from them if they went that route. 

[MegaVolt87]

 

 

 

Two things are still to happen .... the codec compliant chapters need their supplements like they received in 8th edition, and you're right there will be a second Codex Space Marines.

Do they really need full supplements for each codex-compliant chapters though? As of yet, the fluff hasn't advanced far enough to give them anything more from the 8th supplements and it seems like just having a "First Founding" supplement that covers them would work. Make it have all of their updated special rules, strats, and any needed datasheets, release it alongside whenever the SM 2.0 codex drops- just include more fluff about each chapter than what is included in the main SM 2.0 codex. That way we don't have another six+ Imperium codices (that really would cover nothing new) and instead work on the Xenos/Chaos codices that need major re-works.

Yes they do. The fluff advances as far as GW says it advances so I dont agree with that point. There is plenty of opportunity to expand existing lore or add tantalising developments.

 

Relics need full re-write, crusade rules need adding and some characters need a full on rework - Gman for example.

 

8th showed that GW dont view the first founding as generic chapters and I applaud them making them different. This was a big step forward. I dont want to go back to the proverbial dark ages which you are suggesting.

 

Not suggesting anything of the sort, as far as making First Founding generic. I just don't think we need another six supplements when one bigger supplement could work just as well, as far as the rules go. Fluff really is less important than the rules and even if GW updates or advances the narrative, it doesn't require a full supplement to do so- especially since the last supplements didn't have a whole lot of new fluff (roughly two pages covering the Era Indomidus and another with that era's stuff on the general timeline). 

 

Let's look at how many pages of actual rules would be needed for each First Founding Chapter (excluding datasheets), based on what was in the 8th ed supplements-

Abilities- 1 page, lays out super-doctrine and successor rules

Warlord Traits- 1 page

Relics- 2 pages, including Special-Issue Wargear

Stratagems- 2 pages

Psychic Powers- 1 page

Add Secondary Objectives- 1 page

Add Crusade Rules - 6 pages, which would include Agendas, Requisitions, Battle Traits, Honorifics, and Relics

 

15 pages total, for one chapter. 90 pages total, add in another 2 pages per chapter for a little fluff and 5-6 for standard intro/table of contents/outro stuff and you have a  110 page supplement without the datasheets, which would add some more (21 separate datasheets using the 8th ed supplements, which can probably be condensed to around 14 pages). So a rough page count would be 125-ish pages. That's right in-between the largest of the supplements (Ultras at 87 pages) and the 9th ed SM codex at 213. You could even add in more fluff for each that is specifically focused on newer conflicts (rather than the old fluff that has been printed for years) and come in under 200 pages. I'm in the US so the current SM codex is $50 while an 8th ed supplement is $30. Make the cost of the combined supplement $40 and you'll make even more profit than doing six different ones- everyone still has to buy one but you don't have to do the design/print work of six which lessens the expense. Frankly, I'd love to have this sort of thing come out in tandem with the SM 2.0 codex

 

Do I think this will happen- No. It is too radical of an idea for GW. Multiple supplements will most likely happen, which is disappointing in a lot of ways because they will drip-feed them along, just like last time (though this time because of shipping delays it could take even longer, without two supplements showing up each month). 

 

 

TLDR- you want the HH book style like the red books. I wouldn't mind that, expanding on your idea I would cut the 2 pg lore sections from your proposed compilation BUT I would then compile all the old supplement lore + art and expand that into a second separate book and sell it as a bundle with your rules compilation with hardback + softback options. This way the lore could then not be bound by an arbitrary page count, while the rules themselves are a match for the SM codex in page count. The lore book would be like the old index astartes books that we used to have. I don't need to cart the lore + art to a game. 

[Lord_Ikka]

 

 

 

 

@Lord_Ikka then I am paying more for a supplement where 90 percent of the stuff I dont want. I would rather pay for something where I want 100 percent of it. You discount fluff but it important to quite a lot of people.

If black templars or space wolves get their own supplement then so should Fists, Ultras or Ravens etc.

I dont think we will agree so I shall leave this conversation here but I would feel let down by GW if they went with your approach after the advances they made with supplements with 8th and have so far done in 9th.

 

I understand your opinion, I just am in a different space. I enjoy the fluff and lore, but would rather have a concise, multiple-chapter rules supplement than multiple individual supplements. Anyway, I appreciate your opinion and the opinions of those who share it.

 

I get where your coming from Lord_Ikka but to be honest I really feel that if GW wants their app to succeed it needs to have all the rules anyways. So if each fraction is getting just a couple of pages of rules than that should just be on the app, and the books and fluff shouldn't change. 

 

I purchased a yearlong subscription for the assassin model, and there really isn't a way I'll stay subscriber unless they branch out to this where I can look at all of the rules. I would still probably buy the books because they're a lot easier to read, but if your only concerned about rules that's what you should push for.

 

Unless you hate tech.

I prefer tech, so I'd love for them to just have a subscription that unlocked all rules.