New Templars taking their first tournament victory

[a_typical_hero]

https://www.goonhammer.com/competitive-innovations-in-9th-liminal-state/

 

Happy to see Templars taking a tournament.

I'm concernced that Grimaldus and Helbrecht might be must have units, as they are so much better than their regular counterparts.

Sadly no Emperor's Champion, but at least Primaris Crusader Squads.

Can't check the army lists at the moment. Where are all the other Templars? Weren't there any? Did they not place high enough? Were they not allowed to use the new rules at the other tournaments?

Any info on how "Uphold" was used at the tournament? Was it light and heavy cover only, or dense in addition?

Edited November 18, 2021 by Dosjetka
Edited formatting to be more legible for users of the "day-mode" forum skin.

[Prot]

I don't understand the debate with Uphold. I thought this was covered in rare rules, and Uphold means you get zero cover advantages, except Obscurring. 

 
Here's the list for you. Very vanilla, very much concentrating on the strong(er) units for marines, with the advantage of the amazing BT characters, and (what I think are) 3 of the best marine troop squads in the game:

 

+ Battalion Detachment 0CP (Imperium - Adeptus Astartes - Black Templars) [100 PL, 1,999pts, 9CP] ++

+ Configuration +

Battle Size [12CP]: 3. Strike Force (101-200 Total PL / 1001-2000 Points)

Chapter Selection: Black Templars

Detachment Command Cost

+ Stratagems +

Revered Repositories [-1CP]

Strategem: Relics of the Chapter [-1CP]: Number of Extra Relics

+ HQ +

Chaplain Grimaldus [7 PL, 140pts]: 1. Litany of Divine Protection, 2. Psalm of the Remorseless Persecution, Artificer Crozius, 3x Cenobyte Servitors, Frag & Krak grenades, Litany of Hate, Plasma pistol

High Marshal Helbrecht [8 PL, 160pts]: Attendant Thrall's Fists, Feroicity, Frag & Krak grenades, Sword of the High Marshals

Primaris Chaplain on Bike [6 PL, 115pts]: 6. Canticle of Hate (Aura), Absolver Bolt pistol, Crozius arcanum, Frag & Krak grenades, Iron Resolve, Litany of Hate, Tannhauser's Bones, Twin Bolt rifle, Warlord

+ Troops +

Primaris Crusader Squad [10 PL, 183pts]: Bolt Pistol and Astartes Chainsword
. 5x Primaris Initiate w/Chainsword & Heavy Bolt Pistol: 5x Astartes Chainsword, 5x Frag & Krak grenades, 5x Heavy Bolt Pistol
. 4x Primaris Neophytes: 4x Frag & Krak grenades (bp and chainsword)
. Primaris Sword Brother: Frag & Krak grenades, Heavy Bolt Pistol, Power sword, Sword of Judgement

Primaris Crusader Squad [10 PL, 188pts]: Bolt Pistol and Astartes Chainsword
. 5x Primaris Initiate w/Chainsword & Heavy Bolt Pistol: 5x Astartes Chainsword, 5x Frag & Krak grenades, 5x Heavy Bolt Pistol
. 4x Primaris Neophytes: 4x Frag & Krak grenades (bp and chainsword)
. Primaris Sword Brother: Frag & Krak grenades, Power sword, Pyre Pistol

Primaris Crusader Squad [10 PL, 183pts]: Bolt Pistol and Astartes Chainsword
. 5x Primaris Initiate w/Chainsword & Heavy Bolt Pistol: 5x Astartes Chainsword, 5x Frag & Krak grenades, 5x Heavy Bolt Pistol
. 4x Primaris Neophytes: 4x Frag & Krak grenades (bp and chainsword)
. Primaris Sword Brother: Frag & Krak grenades, Heavy Bolt Pistol, Power sword

+ Elites +

Judiciar [5 PL, 85pts]: Absolver Bolt pistol, Executioner Relic Blade, Frag & Krak grenades, The Aurillian Shroud

Redemptor Dreadnought [9 PL, 185pts]: 2x Storm Bolters, Icarus Rocket Pod, Macro Plasma Incinerator, Onslaught Gatling Cannon, Redemptor Fist

Redemptor Dreadnought [9 PL, 185pts]: 2x Storm Bolters, Icarus Rocket Pod, Macro Plasma Incinerator, Onslaught Gatling Cannon, Redemptor Fist

Redemptor Dreadnought [9 PL, 185pts]: 2x Storm Bolters, Icarus Rocket Pod, Macro Plasma Incinerator, Onslaught Gatling Cannon, Redemptor Fist

Servitors [2 PL, 30pts]: 4x Servitor, 4x Servo-arm

Vanguard Veteran Squad [8 PL, 210pts, -1CP]: Icon of Heinmann, Jump Pack
. Vanguard Veteran: Frag & Krak grenades, Storm shield, Thunder hammer
. Vanguard Veteran: Frag & Krak grenades, Storm shield, Thunder hammer
. Vanguard Veteran: Frag & Krak grenades, Storm shield, Thunder hammer
. Vanguard Veteran: Frag & Krak grenades, Storm shield, Thunder hammer
. Vanguard Veteran Sergeant: Champion of the Feast, Frag & Krak grenades, Storm shield, Thunder hammer

+ Heavy Support +

Eradicator Squad [7 PL, 150pts]: Heavy melta rifle
. 2x Eradicator: 2x Bolt pistol
. Eradicator Sgt: Bolt pistol
 

++ Total: [100 PL, 9CP, 1,999pts] ++

Edited November 18, 2021 by Prot

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

My list is very similar.

[SkimaskMohawk]

Prot the problem is that the reference section of the BT rules is explicit that it's only light and heavy cover. It's not people arguing what "the benefits of cover" technically means, it's which page is correct in the supplement.

 

Personally, I explain the dilemma to my opponents and say it's up to them. Then I play accordingly.

[Prot]

Prot the problem is that the reference section of the BT rules is explicit that it's only light and heavy cover. It's not people arguing what "the benefits of cover" technically means, it's which page is correct in the supplement.

 

Personally, I explain the dilemma to my opponents and say it's up to them. Then I play accordingly.

 

I guess I just went by page 44 of the codex for myself. ".... this unit does not receive the benefits of cover from the attack."

 

What is the other reference, just so I'm clear. Just for the record I have been playing it with the least advantage to myself. So that means if it is officially stated one way or the other, I won't have a case of the feels bad. I usually do this for myself though in those case. I don't expect anyone else to do the same. 

[SkimaskMohawk]

 

 

Prot the problem is that the reference section of the BT rules is explicit that it's only light and heavy cover. It's not people arguing what "the benefits of cover" technically means, it's which page is correct in the supplement.

 

Personally, I explain the dilemma to my opponents and say it's up to them. Then I play accordingly.

I guess I just went by page 44 of the codex for myself. ".... this unit does not receive the benefits of cover from the attack."

 

What is the other reference, just so I'm clear. Just for the record I have been playing it with the least advantage to myself. So that means if it is officially stated one way or the other, I won't have a case of the feels bad. I usually do this for myself though in those case. I don't expect anyone else to do the same.

I don't have the book on hand, but it's one of the very last pages in the book.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

It’s on the last page… oh well.

[Sword Brother Adelard]

I think the book is really clear. Page 44 sets out the rule in a basic form. The reference section explains the exact functions of that rule, in the same way that the bullet points in the core book explain the rules in a clear manner.

 

Dense isn't really a benefit of cover which the unit can take advantage of, it's an effect the cover has on the game.

[a_typical_hero]

While it is being a worthwile topic to discuss, please let's not do it here. The way it was ruled is relevant to the winning list's tournament performance. The way it is supposed to be, isn't.

Edited November 19, 2021 by a_typical_hero

[Tokugawa]

Austin major in this weekend don't activate new BT rules, but activated octarius book tyrannids rules.

[Sword Brother Adelard]

Austin major in this weekend don't activate new BT rules, but activated octarius book tyrannids rules.

Because Octarius has been released and the BT supplement hasn't been fully?

[Castellan Skarskård]

Happy to see this list succeed. Looks very much in flavour for black templars. Except for the 3 redemptors it could also be pretty fun to play against, alos a plus in my book. Reliance on special ccharacters is a bit troubling but on par with White Scars for example. Exchange on dreadnought for some terminators and it would look exactly like a fluffy list so again, nice to see it do so well!

[Sword Brother Adelard]

Kevin said on FB that they played with the rules as written in the reference section.

[Prot]

.... Back to the list I think it's pretty solid. I'd run something similar, but I do have to wonder what GW is going to do to those VV's/claws etc. It's a very potent unit, even in a non-aggressive list, and it's not Primaris. I'm very curious to see how they hit it.

[Tiger9gamer]

.... Back to the list I think it's pretty solid. I'd run something similar, but I do have to wonder what GW is going to do to those VV's/claws etc. It's a very potent unit, even in a non-aggressive list, and it's not Primaris. I'm very curious to see how they hit it.

don't.... don't hurt me like this.

 

Seriously though I don't see why they would hit it for not being primaris. It is still a 50 box for 5 guys right? Unless buying 3rd party then it is the same 50 bucks they would make before any potential bits on the secondary market. It's a good unit, but I think it is not broken

[Charlo]

 

.... Back to the list I think it's pretty solid. I'd run something similar, but I do have to wonder what GW is going to do to those VV's/claws etc. It's a very potent unit, even in a non-aggressive list, and it's not Primaris. I'm very curious to see how they hit it.

don't.... don't hurt me like this.

 

Seriously though I don't see why they would hit it for not being primaris. It is still a 50 box for 5 guys right? Unless buying 3rd party then it is the same 50 bucks they would make before any potential bits on the secondary market. It's a good unit, but I think it is not broken

 

It's more they will hit it because the unit is utterly boring and in every competitive list. It hits far above where it should.

[Prot]

It's a bit off topic, but my own personal observation is GW doesn't care to see old, common, and easily proxied units do well.

 

Why I say this: I have been collecting CSM for ever and a day.... they released Chaos Havoks. You'd think that would be enough, right?  Well since the old models technically count, and they want you to buy new models, they made a new weapon called the Chain cannon. A must have, unusual looking weapon.

 

What I said in the UM forum is all they have to do to keep the sales for the first born is invent new weapons upon release. So with a Dev squad maybe the "MUST HAVE" gun becomes a... Volkite Cannon from the old days. 

 

With VV's and Claws, they are everywhere, and no one is buying them, and they can source them from several kits. (I made a squad for my BT and my White Scars without buying any new models.)

 

That's just my opinion though.... back on track, the Vanguard Vets do represent something that I believe should always be valid; first born options. I mean competitively as well as fluff wise. BT especially should be able to competitively field Primaris and First Born alike. (dreads too!)

 

Believe it or not, one of my very favourite units from the codex is just the fact you can slap a MM on "Primaris" vehicles. I love the old meets new feel. I don't see them in many lists, but I was always using 2 of them to great success.  

[Tiger9gamer]

 

 

.... Back to the list I think it's pretty solid. I'd run something similar, but I do have to wonder what GW is going to do to those VV's/claws etc. It's a very potent unit, even in a non-aggressive list, and it's not Primaris. I'm very curious to see how they hit it.

don't.... don't hurt me like this.

 

Seriously though I don't see why they would hit it for not being primaris. It is still a 50 box for 5 guys right? Unless buying 3rd party then it is the same 50 bucks they would make before any potential bits on the secondary market. It's a good unit, but I think it is not broken

 

It's more they will hit it because the unit is utterly boring and in every competitive list. It hits far above where it should.

 

Boring? Sure, maybe for people following modern tourneys but holy crap do you know how long I had to wait until these guys actually became viable over assault terminators? the fact we have these guys are in top tourney lists at all is amazing to me, and I can finally start to model the knightly squad I always wanted in past armies now and have them be good is just great! 

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

 

.... Back to the list I think it's pretty solid. I'd run something similar, but I do have to wonder what GW is going to do to those VV's/claws etc. It's a very potent unit, even in a non-aggressive list, and it's not Primaris. I'm very curious to see how they hit it.

don't.... don't hurt me like this.

 

Seriously though I don't see why they would hit it for not being primaris. It is still a 50 box for 5 guys right? Unless buying 3rd party then it is the same 50 bucks they would make before any potential bits on the secondary market. It's a good unit, but I think it is not broken

 

 

I don't think you have anything to worry about.

 

1) GW doesn't tend to nerf the 6th best army in the format. Honestly I think that Admech, DE, SoB, GK, Orks, Custodes, and TS are all better than marines at the moment though that may be a controversial statement.

 

2) Vanguard Vets aren't suppressing the other elite slots we still see termies, BGV, Redemptors, Contemptors, leviathans, and company vets in a lot of lists. That's a pretty healthy spread, so nerfing VV would make for less diversity not more. 

 

3) We've had three marine codex since Primaris were released and if GW was worried about firstborn being better you just wouldn't see firstborn units in competitive lists by now.  Instead competitive marines have relied a ton on firstborn units for pretty much that entire stretch and when primaris units have been too good they been hit hard & fast (I'm literally sighing and looking at my Repulsor Executioner right now)

 

4) Rumored HH box set (that they will want 40k players to buy).

 

TL:DR - really doubt VV will be nerfed.

[9x19 Parabellum]

I have a question about something here and I really don't understand....

 

-Almost no one would have advised taking 3 units of 10 assault intercessors prior to BT codex coming out, but now people are lauding 3 units of 10 crusaders? Why is this?  I'm honestly lost.  The equipment layout is virtually identical; the only thing you can't have on 3x10 AssInts is the pyre pistol...I hardly think that item was included as a MUST HAVE, and probably rather as just something the model had so the player included it.

 

Point cost savings?  He's saving a grand total of 36 points compared to what he would have from 3x10 assault intercessors...but at the cost of 12 models with 4+ saves.  

 

And he's losing the ability of even one of these units to fight twice.

 

So yeah...can anyone explain why 3x10 crusaders is good but 3x10 assault intercessors is bad?

[Marshal Laeroth]

I have a question about something here and I really don't understand....

 

-Almost no one would have advised taking 3 units of 10 assault intercessors prior to BT codex coming out, but now people are lauding 3 units of 10 crusaders? Why is this? I'm honestly lost. The equipment layout is virtually identical; the only thing you can't have on 3x10 AssInts is the pyre pistol...I hardly think that item was included as a MUST HAVE, and probably rather as just something the model had so the player included it.

 

Point cost savings? He's saving a grand total of 36 points compared to what he would have from 3x10 assault intercessors...but at the cost of 12 models with 4+ saves.

 

And he's losing the ability of even one of these units to fight twice.

 

So yeah...can anyone explain why 3x10 crusaders is good but 3x10 assault intercessors is bad?

It's apples to oranges. You could not apply the same buffs to those Assault Intercessors as you can now, and those new buffs are definitely superior. But the difference now is...Crusaders are cheaper than assault intercessors and you don't charge them into things you would need fight twice against. Edited November 19, 2021 by Marshal Laeroth

[a_typical_hero]

You have unique Litanies and a 5++ on every dude. Grimaldus handing out w3+3" advance as well as 6+ FnP which you can't have in other chapters or prior to the update.

[Tiger9gamer]

Speaking of crusaders, I am surprised I didn’t see any power fists in the squads. This may be because I have double power fist crusader squads, but it really does seem the squads are almost naked without them. Then again, it is less points and he has anti-tank covered with the redemptors and vanguard vets….

[9x19 Parabellum]

So If I'm reading you guys right, 10 assault intercessors could work in a BT list as well, as they benefit from all the same buffs that the Primaris Crusader squad does, AND have the ability to take thunder hammers AND can fight twice if you need them to.

 

I took a unit of 5 last night with Thammer, Sigi's Seal, Champ of Feasts and Masterworked weapon and they plowed Death Guard Blightlord Termies in one combat. Felt good, man, felt good.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Overlooking 2x power fist… huge difference in melee output.