How to make the stormspeeders more desirable?

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

Just to continue my recent theme, what could be done to make stormspeeders desirable for a list?

 

Sure dropping points is the first thing but why else?

 

Idk about for all 3 but the hailstrike I could see a suppressive fire rule/strat being useful and fluffy.

Something like any enemy unit targeted by this unit must take a leadership test, if the enemy unit fails the test they cannot move and/or shoot in their next turn or something like that.

 

Any way what else can the community think of?

[BloodyB]

My problem with the Stormspeeders comes down to the nature of the model; it is too small to justify having degrading profiles, but too large not to have them as well. I honestly couldn't even begin to approach a potential solution for this quandary.

 

Otherwise I would skip Stratagems, they become so niche when applied to a single model, maybe a strat that affects all Speeders, similar to the old squadron rule they had in 6th? Whacking on a hard to hit rule could do well, these vehicles are supposed to be dodging fire at all times due to their fragility, so a -1 to hit rolls or even an invul/shrug save to represent this ithout sacrificing the ability to shoot would drastically help out.

 

The last thing I would do to help them is an all around buff to vehicle roughnesses, but that is probably a discussion for another thread.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

My problem with the Stormspeeders comes down to the nature of the model; it is too small to justify having degrading profiles, but too large not to have them as well. I honestly couldn't even begin to approach a potential solution for this quandary.

 

Otherwise I would skip Stratagems, they become so niche when applied to a single model, maybe a strat that affects all Speeders, similar to the old squadron rule they had in 6th? Whacking on a hard to hit rule could do well, these vehicles are supposed to be dodging fire at all times due to their fragility, so a -1 to hit rolls or even an invul/shrug save to represent this ithout sacrificing the ability to shoot would drastically help out.

 

The last thing I would do to help them is an all around buff to vehicle roughnesses, but that is probably a discussion for another thread.

yeah that discussion has been had already lol Edited November 23, 2021 by Inquisitor_Lensoven

[Helias_Tancred]

Remove their degrading stats profile, and slightly lower their points cost .... then see what happens?

Edited November 24, 2021 by Helias Tancred

[Son of Sacrifice]

Are they not desirable? I bought two because they are super sexy, and run them both with meltas. I've never had a reason to drop them.

[BloodyB]

Are they not desirable? I bought two because they are super sexy, and run them both with meltas. I've never had a reason to drop them.

The model is rather nice, and they certainly have their niche, but by and large, they don't perform very efficiently in most competitive meta's. It's not a problem if you do like them and enjoy using them, but against many of the opponents one might encounter in a tourney, one can reasonably expect the stormspeeder to underperform. Of course, occasionally those stormspeeders could come up a cropper and win the game almost single handedly, but the odds are slanted toward the former.

 

In a more casual meta, such as at a local gaming store or club without a large number of meta-watching players, it is more likely to achieve success with what are considered 'sub-par' units, as more people bring less optimised lists and focus more on models and armies they enjoy on a personal level than on whatever just won at a GT.

 

If you use your stormspeeders often, would you mind sharing how you use them? It might help us determine a way to improve their competitive viability and help OP with his question.

 

I have only used the stormspeeder rarely, and almost always as a fast moving response unit to support my jump infantry.

[Dark Shepherd]

Stormspeeder in another bundle today so GW definitely want to make them more desireable

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

Stormspeeder in another bundle today so GW definitely want to make them more desireable

what new bundle?

[Helias_Tancred]

 

Stormspeeder in another bundle today so GW definitely want to make them more desireable

what new bundle?

 

 

The Marine Christmas box.

[TheNewman]

I think my problem with the Stormspeeder comes down to the calculation of a Hailstrike and Hammerstrike versus three Multimelta and Assault Cannon Landspeeders. The Landspeeders have better AT and arguably similar AP firepower in a more buffable package that doesn't take up two FA slots in a list, and if my opponent brought a skew list they can't focus down the one that's more dangerous to them.

 

Which is an annoying mental block, since if I was just looking for fast AT or fast AP to complement the rest of the list the Stormspeeders aren't terrible.

[Mandragola]

For me the issue with the storm speeder (and to a greater degree the Gladiator) is that they have too much firepower relative to their durability. The result is a unit that can destroy something of equivalent durability, and/or be destroyed itself, in a single turn. When you scale that up you get to where we are today, with armies that are able to more or less destroy each other in one shooting phase.

 

Storm speeders are kind of already nearly good enough. I don't like the idea of dropping their cost though, because doing that just increases the game's lethality even further. Instead I think I'd make them always -1 to be hit, like proper aircraft. I'd actually consider just counting them as planes with a hover mode rather than skimmers. They look at least as fast as something like a valkyrie or the admech planes.

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

I really think the stormspeeders just need a point drop. Fly is a great rule, and they have unique weapon load outs that are appealing. The biggest issue they have right now is that attack bikes and land speeders are both cheaper with similar damage output. I think you can make an argument that MM attack bikes should go up in points. But I don't see why the stormspeeders shouldn't be more comparable pointwise to 2 speeders offensively they are pretty close, the land speeders would have slightly more movement and two extra wounds but also give up an extra point against bring it down, and are harder to hide. It would take about another 15 point drop to get them even, so I probably just drop all three variants by 15 and see what happens.

 

That said if you like stormspeeders my experience with them suggests they're fine. Taking a unit that's 15 points overcosted isn't going to make you lose automatically, its more an issue when you take 6 or 7 units in that category and find yourself down a 100 against someone chasing the meta. 

 

 

Don't give them a degrading stats profile, and a slight lowering of points .... then see what happens?

 

I think this is something that should be looked at in general. I just don't know if degrading stats add much to the game. I do think you'd have to rebalance some vehicles like PBC & Redemptors but I think getting rid of it would speed up the game, and make vehicles in general feel more worth it.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

 

 

 

Stormspeeder in another bundle today so GW definitely want to make them more desireable

what new bundle?

The Marine Christmas box.

oh, that was revealed a few days ago lol that’s why I was confused.

 

A smaller cheaper set I would have definitely gone for it had a speeder

 

Are they not desirable? I bought two because they are super sexy, and run them both with meltas. I've never had a reason to drop them.

The model is rather nice, and they certainly have their niche, but by and large, they don't perform very efficiently in most competitive meta's. It's not a problem if you do like them and enjoy using them, but against many of the opponents one might encounter in a tourney, one can reasonably expect the stormspeeder to underperform. Of course, occasionally those stormspeeders could come up a cropper and win the game almost single handedly, but the odds are slanted toward the former.

 

In a more casual meta, such as at a local gaming store or club without a large number of meta-watching players, it is more likely to achieve success with what are considered 'sub-par' units, as more people bring less optimised lists and focus more on models and armies they enjoy on a personal level than on whatever just won at a GT.

 

If you use your stormspeeders often, would you mind sharing how you use them? It might help us determine a way to improve their competitive viability and help OP with his question.

 

I have only used the stormspeeder rarely, and almost always as a fast moving response unit to support my jump infantry.

I don’t have any yet, but I plan on at least one of each.

 

My first speeder will be the BS2 variant because my army is sorely lacking in dedicated AT.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I’d love to see a drop in points… might even consider using one.

[Dark Shepherd]

 

 

 

Stormspeeder in another bundle today so GW definitely want to make them more desireable

what new bundle?

The Marine Christmas box.

Nah theres a new Wolves bundle up with one included, so they seem to be getting a shove

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

@Dark Shepard - that just means that they have a lot of them in the warehouse. Like I said earlier though they are fun just a little overcosted.

[Dark Shepherd]

@Dark Shepard - that just means that they have a lot of them in the warehouse. Like I said earlier though they are fun just a little overcosted.

Guess the gladiators sold more :)

Speeders are a nice model, melta variant is a good unit, sadly/oddly its competing with the undercosted Eradicators (when everything can go into reserves)

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

It's tough to say which one sold more, GW is never gonna give us that information lol. Though stormspeeders have seen one point drop already so maybe I'm an outlier (I love that model, I own 2 hammer strikes, and thunderstrike).

 

That said I think if they got a point decrease down and were 140 base they'd compete ok with eradicators as well. They can just get to the middle of the board a lot easier, and can split fire which Eradicators lose so much offense if they attempt that. Granted Eradicators aren't super popular any more after their first point increase so I don't know how impressive that is. 

 

I also have to admit that I'm playing a video game right now that has convinced me that just nerfing the top tier isn't the best way to go. They tend to buff everyone when they do balance patches it's just that the weaker characters get more. Some moves have been nerfed but they've put more effort into making the weaker characters stronger. I think GW could learn from that though maybe 40k has gotten too lethal.   

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

It's tough to say which one sold more, GW is never gonna give us that information lol. Though stormspeeders have seen one point drop already so maybe I'm an outlier (I love that model, I own 2 hammer strikes, and thunderstrike).

 

That said I think if they got a point decrease down and were 140 base they'd compete ok with eradicators as well. They can just get to the middle of the board a lot easier, and can split fire which Eradicators lose so much offense if they attempt that. Granted Eradicators aren't super popular any more after their first point increase so I don't know how impressive that is.

 

I also have to admit that I'm playing a video game right now that has convinced me that just nerfing the top tier isn't the best way to go. They tend to buff everyone when they do balance patches it's just that the weaker characters get more. Some moves have been nerfed but they've put more effort into making the weaker characters stronger. I think GW could learn from that though maybe 40k has gotten too lethal.

i definitely think 40k as a whole is too lethal and nerfing OP units is a better way forward than buffing under performing units.

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

If 40k is too lethal than they need to have another reset edition.

 

That said if that's how you feel why aren't you making topics about fixing the OP stuff?

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

If 40k is too lethal than they need to have another reset edition.

 

That said if that's how you feel why aren't you making topics about fixing the OP stuff?

because I don’t really see that as realistic.

New codexes will continue to come out and there’s likely to be more power creep, intentionally or otherwise, so then new codexes would be even more over powered compared to all the codexes that just got their OP units needed.

 

Maybe if all planned codexes get released with a year or two before the next edition is expected it might make sense to do a massive errata that slightly defangs the strongest units.

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

That's fair, but I really think that if you just adjust the top tier stuff than the sub par stuff will always stink.

 

I think they already know that they went to far this edition. They wouldn't be doing surveys, having quarterly updates, and changing core rules.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

That's fair, but I really think that if you just adjust the top tier stuff than the sub par stuff will always stink.

 

I think they already know that they went to far this edition. They wouldn't be doing surveys, having quarterly updates, and changing core rules.

the sub par stuff only stinks if it stank from the get go.

Aggressors won’t start to stink because they’re not bad. They’re just not meta/OP.

But reducing the lethality of BGVs and VVs will likely cause people to play aggressors a bit more.

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

 

That's fair, but I really think that if you just adjust the top tier stuff than the sub par stuff will always stink.

 

I think they already know that they went to far this edition. They wouldn't be doing surveys, having quarterly updates, and changing core rules.

the sub par stuff only stinks if it stank from the get go.

Aggressors won’t start to stink because they’re not bad. They’re just not meta/OP.

But reducing the lethality of BGVs and VVs will likely cause people to play aggressors a bit more.

 

 

I don't know how many more people would run aggressors if BGVs and VVs were nerfed. I love the stormspeeders so I run them, and I'm sure aggressors have similar fans heck I run them every now then. But for the people who don't love them it's going take a lot more than just BGV, and VVs getting nerfed to get there.

 

Realistically Contemptors, Redemptors, and Leviathans are just clearly better than aggressors. I'd argue that assault termies, and ven dreads are better as well though that may be more debatable. Even after those 7 units are nerfed from a competitive stand point I wouldn't run aggressors because Devs, eradicators, Eliminators, MM attack bikes, inceptors and landspeeders are also clearly better. At this point you have to start looking at the other books, because marines aren't a tier 2 army anymore.  After you do all of that your still left with reivers being awful (thankfully reivers and predators weren't your starting point because we'd probably have to nerf 95% of the units in the game lol).

 

I'd rather have them try to get aggressors on an even footing by making them cheaper or better (I think their durability holds them back, if damage were the deciding factor VV would run twin claws). In order to tone down the lethality of the game you need to make some huge structural changes, so in the meantime let people run their favorite units. It doesn't mean that the top units don't need to be toned down, they do I just think its better to give the non-meta chasers a buff rather than just nerfing the competitive crowd into the ground. 

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

 

 

 

That's fair, but I really think that if you just adjust the top tier stuff than the sub par stuff will always stink.

 

I think they already know that they went to far this edition. They wouldn't be doing surveys, having quarterly updates, and changing core rules.

the sub par stuff only stinks if it stank from the get go.

Aggressors won’t start to stink because they’re not bad. They’re just not meta/OP.

But reducing the lethality of BGVs and VVs will likely cause people to play aggressors a bit more.

I don't know how many more people would run aggressors if BGVs and VVs were nerfed. I love the stormspeeders so I run them, and I'm sure aggressors have similar fans heck I run them every now then. But for the people who don't love them it's going take a lot more than just BGV, and VVs getting nerfed to get there.

 

Realistically Contemptors, Redemptors, and Leviathans are just clearly better than aggressors. I'd argue that assault termies, and ven dreads are better as well though that may be more debatable. Even after those 7 units are nerfed from a competitive stand point I wouldn't run aggressors because Devs, eradicators, Eliminators, MM attack bikes, inceptors and landspeeders are also clearly better. At this point you have to start looking at the other books, because marines aren't a tier 2 army anymore. After you do all of that your still left with reivers being awful (thankfully reivers and predators weren't your starting point because we'd probably have to nerf 95% of the units in the game lol).

 

I'd rather have them try to get aggressors on an even footing by making them cheaper or better (I think their durability holds them back, if damage were the deciding factor VV would run twin claws). In order to tone down the lethality of the game you need to make some huge structural changes, so in the meantime let people run their favorite units. It doesn't mean that the top units don't need to be toned down, they do I just think its better to give the non-meta chasers a buff rather than just nerfing the competitive crowd into the ground.

continuously buffing everything just lowers overall survivability, and just turns the game into dragon ball z.

Mid tier units are already basically super saiyans with planet destroying power.

If you keep making things more lethal the game will just come down to who goes first.(something that is already becoming problematic…)