How to make the stormspeeders more desirable?

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

I'm not even sure how to respond that. I'll just say that if you look at the goonhammer meta review for October you'll see that the best marine fractions (deathwatch and Space wolves) are little over 50% winrates. Bringing up units to BGV/VV power levels is going to increase diversity not break the game because those units already aren't breaking it.  

 

Going first has been a big issue this entire edition, and GW answer has been to shove a crap ton of terrain on the table. I don't think that is going to change until heavy weapons are rebalanced, re-rolls toned way down, and stratagems are eliminated or toned down. I just don't see that as realistic so I'd rather go down swinging with my stormspeeders and invictors, I'd rather you go down swinging with gravis, and firstborn player being able to go with predators and sternguard.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

I'm not even sure how to respond that. I'll just say that if you look at the goonhammer meta review for October you'll see that the best marine fractions (deathwatch and Space wolves) are little over 50% winrates. Bringing up units to BGV/VV power levels is going to increase diversity not break the game because those units already aren't breaking it.

 

Going first has been a big issue this entire edition, and GW answer has been to shove a crap ton of terrain on the table. I don't think that is going to change until heavy weapons are rebalanced, re-rolls toned way down, and stratagems are eliminated or toned down. I just don't see that as realistic so I'd rather go down swinging with my stormspeeders and invictors, I'd rather you go down swinging with gravis, and firstborn player being able to go with predators and sternguard.

im not talking about marines only in this regard.

 

I’m talking about applying this to all codexes across the board which is why it’s not some thing I’ve previously advocated for, because i realize it’s not realistic.

 

GW is never going to buff everything to be meta levels of good any more than they’ll nerf all of the OP units.

Edited November 24, 2021 by Inquisitor_Lensoven

[dice4thedicegod]

The problem with adjusting points on stormspeeders, is that their worth depends on the supplement.

 

Running them as blood angels is probably shooting yourself in the foot. But running them as ravenwing is a lot better (they can move and have a free 5++, or be stationary and have +1 to hit for free and then for 1 cp get a 4++ against ranged attacks). I think a ravenwing hammer strike is ok (not saying it’sa must take or anything but if you reduced its points by enough to make the blood angels want one, it would probably be an autotake for dark angels)

Edited November 24, 2021 by dice4thedicegod

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

The problem with adjusting points on stormspeeders, is that their worth depends on the supplement.

 

Running them as blood angels is probably shooting yourself in the foot. But running them as ravenwing is a lot better (they can move and have a free 5++, or be stationary and have +1 to hit for free and then for 1 cp get a 4++ against ranged attacks). I think a ravenwing hammer strike is ok (not saying it’sa must take or anything but if you reduced its points by enough to make the blood angels want one, it would probably be an autotake for dark angels)

i generally don’t like points changes for units.

Some might be slightly under or over pointed, but for most things you either make it too expensive or way too cheap.

 

For example, I can’t imagine taking a landraider for more than 190ish points in this current edition…but I think that would be a ridiculous point decrease so not very feasible

 

Not sure why you think stormspeeders for BA is shooting yourself in the foot. Only two particularly BA FA options are assault squad and inceptor.

Assault squads suck, inceptors are good, and you can take them alongside your speeder.

There’s outriders which can be pretty choppy but they’re otherwise not very BA-like

Edited November 24, 2021 by Inquisitor_Lensoven

[The Unseen]

Just make them 9 wounds rather than 10.

The biggest reason they don't compare favorably with land speeders or attack bikes is that they're slightly tougher to destroy in total, but they're barely tougher than a land speeder before its bracketed to the point of nearly useless.

So you're paying extra points for durability that you don't really get, 2 land speeders ends up more durable "in game" because they function at full capacity until they're dead.

[dice4thedicegod]

Just make them 9 wounds rather than 10.

The biggest reason they don't compare favorably with land speeders or attack bikes is that they're slightly tougher to destroy in total, but they're barely tougher than a land speeder before its bracketed to the point of nearly useless.

So you're paying extra points for durability that you don't really get, 2 land speeders ends up more durable "in game" because they function at full capacity until they're dead.

Well, two landspeeders function at 50% one of them is dead ;)

[Dark Shepherd]

Just make them 9 wounds rather than 10.

The biggest reason they don't compare favorably with land speeders or attack bikes is that they're slightly tougher to destroy in total, but they're barely tougher than a land speeder before its bracketed to the point of nearly useless.

So you're paying extra points for durability that you don't really get, 2 land speeders ends up more durable "in game" because they function at full capacity until they're dead.

They did that for Contemptor dreads in 9th so theres precedent, not sure if they did it for anything else

[Angel of Solitude]

I've just finished playing a tournament in which I took a Dark Angels list including a Storm Speeder Hailstrike and Storm Speeder Thunderstrike, along side 2 Land speeder Tornadoes and 2 Land speeder Typhoons. 

 

First qualifier: this was not in any way a competitive list, but it was useful to see how well the different speeders work. 

 

As Ravenwing, speeders get some nice buffs as identified earlier - 5++ if you don't stay still, 4++ if you advance, a 2CP stratagem to give +1 to hit, and -1 to hit heavy weapons if you advanced turn 1. I think without these, then speeders become a bit too fragile for their points. Storm Speeders in particular are very difficult to hid behind terrain thanks to their huge flight stand, and to get them to do anything useful in turn 1 just exposes you. 

 

Comparing the Hailstrike (135pts) to the two Tornadoes (160pts), in my mind the Tornadoes are worth the extra points. A Hailstrike can put out a maximum 22 shots vs 18 from the Tornadoes, but crucially only 8 of those shots are above S4 at S5, and all of them are D1. The Tornadoes have 12 S6 shots (Assault Cannon) and 6 D2 shots (Heavy Bolters). Not only are you better at mincing T3 units, but you've also got a chance at 2W models. Add another 2 wounds overall, and the Tornadoes won out for me on this. 

 

Of course, a Talonmaster is only another 15 points, gives you the same fire output as the two Tornadoes, and also has the CHARACTER keyword...

 

Comparing the Thunderstrike (160pts) to the Typhoons (220pts) is a bit easier, in part to the 60pt differential and the fact that the Thunderstrike has a BS 2+. The three anti-tank S9/S10 are better against T8 than the Typhoon Krak missiles, and the twin icarus rocket pod is basically an autocannon profile, so does well against T6 bikes as well as MEQ.

 

Given all of that though, I came away from the tournament with this single thought: what other units can I bring that provide the same function as the speeders, but are just more efficient? Speeders are not core, which is a massive problem. Sammael? Talonmaster? Don't pass on any re-rolls. They're also not infantry, which means that you're not able to double-up on scoring secondaries if needed. This is an interesting point: several times during this tournament my speeders were unable to shoot due to terrain/positioning. If they were infantry, then they could have planted a banner / ROD / etc. 

 

So how do I think you can make Storm Speeders more desirable? Without changing their profile, it has to be a points drop. If you want to make them more value for money? Some thoughts:

• CORE
• No degrading profile / 9 wounds
• Some inbuilt -1 to hit rather than a 1CP stratagem
• Improved weapons profiles - D6 damage moving to D3+3 for example
• Target-specific benefits, such as Hailstrike re-rolling wounds against INFANTRY for example
• Really long-shot: change the secondaries to make more of them achievable by non-INFANTRY

[Jacques Corbin]

Those are some good ideas, but what about a Techmarine on a jetbike? Since they are light vehicles, maybe lose his servo arm for 2 more mechadendrites? But, a Techmarine that could keep up with them, and buff them with Awaken Machine Spirit would really be nice.

 

Or, barring that, allow them to be taken in units of 1-3 and you can make one of the pilots/crew a Techmarine noviate, not repairing, but can attempt to Awaken Machine Spirit in the Command Phase on a 3+, and maybe add a 5++ as well if it goes off.

 

I mean, in the lore, pilots and vehicle crew are supposed to be some level of Techmarine. I know I would love to see one using his mechadendrites to operate levers and joysticks, freeing up a hand to hold his Omnissiahan Power Axe ready to strike.

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

The problem with adjusting points on stormspeeders, is that their worth depends on the supplement.

 

Running them as blood angels is probably shooting yourself in the foot. But running them as ravenwing is a lot better (they can move and have a free 5++, or be stationary and have +1 to hit for free and then for 1 cp get a 4++ against ranged attacks). I think a ravenwing hammer strike is ok (not saying it’sa must take or anything but if you reduced its points by enough to make the blood angels want one, it would probably be an autotake for dark angels)

 

Yeah, the different supplements really do have an effect on pointing units. That said I don't know if it's a problem if the units are well balanced against each other in the first place. Having Space Wolves and Blood Angels favoring different units isn't a bad thing as long the boosts feel fair when compared to each other. The biggest issue with marines in general is that some fractions like Imperial Fists just seem pathetic. We'll see how strong BT are soon but DA never really competed as well as most of us would've thought with their rules.

 

 

 

 

Those are some good ideas, but what about a Techmarine on a jetbike? Since they are light vehicles, maybe lose his servo arm for 2 more mechadendrites? But, a Techmarine that could keep up with them, and buff them with Awaken Machine Spirit would really be nice.

 

Or, barring that, allow them to be taken in units of 1-3 and you can make one of the pilots/crew a Techmarine noviate, not repairing, but can attempt to Awaken Machine Spirit in the Command Phase on a 3+, and maybe add a 5++ as well if it goes off.

 

I mean, in the lore, pilots and vehicle crew are supposed to be some level of Techmarine. I know I would love to see one using his mechadendrites to operate levers and joysticks, freeing up a hand to hold his Omnissiahan Power Axe ready to strike.

 

I think I'd rather have the Techmarine just be on a regular bike. I think jetbikes should stay with custodes, and to be honest as a Primaris player I don't want them to have another new type of model with just one character. I'd really love more bike characters, and gravis ones so that it would be easier to make themed lists. 

 

Having a techmarine upgrade would be interesting, but I don't think vehicle squadrons are a good answer. It just doesn't seem like GW knows how to handle them. Cool ideas though.

[Jacques Corbin]

Well, the Storm Speeders are not much more durable than Land Speeders, and if you take just one, it gets shot off the table pretty quickly. Now, taken en masse, speeders are a different story. Plus there is that pesky rule of 3. I really like the idea of being able to take up to 3 in a unit, and in one FA slot. I mean, Gladiators are barely durable enough to run solo, speeders are definitely not.

 

Maybe in 10th edition GW will make Storm Speeders good, and take my suggestions in mind. Imagine a boxset with 3 Storm Speeders and an upgrade frame for a techmarine pilot.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Cool as it might be I don’t think we shall see a Techmarine on a jetbike any time soon. On a bike is pretty darn good.

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

Well, the Storm Speeders are not much more durable than Land Speeders, and if you take just one, it gets shot off the table pretty quickly. Now, taken en masse, speeders are a different story. Plus there is that pesky rule of 3. I really like the idea of being able to take up to 3 in a unit, and in one FA slot. I mean, Gladiators are barely durable enough to run solo, speeders are definitely not.

 

Maybe in 10th edition GW will make Storm Speeders good, and take my suggestions in mind. Imagine a boxset with 3 Storm Speeders and an upgrade frame for a techmarine pilot.

 

I think the rule of three is actually kinda of important with storm speeders just look at the emergency nerf to Ork buggies. I wouldn't really have an issue with it, if we stilled used the old FOC but if they break something with squadrons you have to deal with a bunch of them in a hurry.  

 

It's just my preference though so maybe they will go in that direction. That said, don't give them ideals about selling a bundle to get something that existing players would want lol. I already own 3 stormspeeders if I had to buy another 9 for techmarines I would be salty (or more likely just not do it, but someone would).  

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

Well, the Storm Speeders are not much more durable than Land Speeders, and if you take just one, it gets shot off the table pretty quickly. Now, taken en masse, speeders are a different story. Plus there is that pesky rule of 3. I really like the idea of being able to take up to 3 in a unit, and in one FA slot. I mean, Gladiators are barely durable enough to run solo, speeders are definitely not.

 

Maybe in 10th edition GW will make Storm Speeders good, and take my suggestions in mind. Imagine a boxset with 3 Storm Speeders and an upgrade frame for a techmarine pilot.

each variant gets its own data sheet so technically you could have 9 stormspeeders legally speaking.

[TheNewman]

If anything I want my Techmarine riding an Invader ATV.

[Jacques Corbin]

I want to see a Techmarine in a custom Invictor Warsuit. Lose the Concealed positions, and give it more guns and the ability to heal.

[Dark Shepherd]

Sorry for the tangent but Id bet dollars to donuts that primaris techmarine on bike is the next generic marine character release