Sword brethren loadout

[Urkh]

That two hand grip looks like the new base for my Castellan Eliwood crossing the Rubicon with Durandal.

[Lord Blackwood]

My plan for these models is to convert them into blade guard , even if that means just mounting shields to backpacks and leaving everything else the same. 

The armor is just too perfect not to make use of it. 
With thesword brethren you can make out of the army box I kinda think that shields on backpacks will be the way maybe add a little jewelers chain
Also remember Blade Guard only have one weapon choice so you can mix in axes if you wanted , my space wolf blade guard are all axes 

[Marshall Bretton]

Also to be slightly pedantic SBros are a Marshal hand chosen warriors to serve in his household while Veterans are well Veterans. All SBros are “Veterans” but not all Veterans are SBros. And a SBro in one Crusade might not be an SBro in another Crusade

There was never a distinction previously, the SB were equivalent to 1st company in another chapter so were all "veterans" and made up SB squads as well as terms, vv and sternguard. And the SB were treated as such across all crusades, not that it would matter because as you say they were attached to a specific marshal so would stay with him regardless. Pretty much like the wolfguard for space wolves.

 

They have now added an arbitrary distinction in the fluff to justify rules or for marketing purposes depending on your level of cynicism.

[Medjugorje]

the more i think about the more i am sure that Sword brethren are clearly Objective cleaner. But their stratagem only works for a big unit or if they have rerolls and in that role you need a very expensive vehicle because of movement. 

 

Pros: - after cleaning an objective they get the benefit of cover and a 5++

- in our command phase we can make them obsec

- even if we need that obsec for the enemy turn - we can fall back and deny the marker

- with powerswords we can clean objectives against opponents which are too strong for our troop choices

- after disembarking (by force or willingly) its just 4 models so we can hide

 

Cons: - They are not even good against tougher units with more wounds (and if we want to take weapon options then they would be expensive - so better to take VV or BGV.

- no 2+ save

- no access to stormshields

- no advance and charge or other abilities which makes a 6" movement Infantry unit fast

- Impulsors which are too expensive are their only transport - Repulsors are even worst

- Impulsor dead means they have to run.

- make them Obsec or their stratagem is expensive for their investment - BT are now more CP hungry then ever

- base statline is not impressive

- weapon options are not great. 

- As relic bearer everything is too expensive.

- Other units like Vanguard are so much better or (company veterans) have far better transports (already played a rhino heavy and another impulsor list and rhino is clear winner)

- In Transports they cannot be buffed by litanies. 

- They are in ELITE slot which is the best one where they have compete with VV, BGV, Redemptors, CV.

Edited October 18, 2021 by Medjugorje

[tvih]

My plan for these models is to convert them into blade guard , even if that means just mounting shields to backpacks and leaving everything else the same. 

 

The armor is just too perfect not to make use of it. 

With thesword brethren you can make out of the army box I kinda think that shields on backpacks will be the way maybe add a little jewelers chain

Also remember Blade Guard only have one weapon choice so you can mix in axes if you wanted , my space wolf blade guard are all axes 

I've been contemplating this as an option more and more this last day or so. Not that the SB unit itself is bad... but I'm still worried about the durability. It's an easily magnetized conversion to make, but then again I already have two Indomitus sets of actual BGV models. Ugh. I guess we shall see.

[Brother Kraskor]

SB durability can be improved. 5++ Vow, 5+++ Litany, and they can still benefit from cover, makes them pretty durable!

[tvih]

I was accounting for 5++ when I said that :P 5+++ on the other hand improves Bladeguard just as much, so it doesn't help SB by comparison. And getting a light cover save bonus with how the matched play terrain is played around here happens once in a blue moon.

[Brother Kraskor]

Don't confront my optimism with facts and reality! 

 

That said, 210pts buys you 6 BGV, 220pts buys you 10 SB. Just a quick breakdown:

 

 

Durability

 

BGV natively much better protected yes. 2+/4++ vs 3+.

 

Perhaps there is an argument to be had that taking the 5++ Vow is more efficient on an army with few native invul saves of its own. The Vow does nothing for BGV except deny them cover. However I think we are so likely to be taking the 5++ Vow anyway this is moot. 

 

There's also a greater preponderance of D2 weapons than D3. D2 is obviously very efficient at killing SB and very inefficient for BGV. 

 

SB can use cover in the case of 5++ Vow, but it is going to be hard to hide all ten of them. 

 

BGV also better recipients of Apothecary revivals.

 

Speed

 

The same, except the BGV fit in an Impulsor so they have a very mobile option if you spend the points.

 

Also BGV are 10PL and SB are 14, so Outflanking is easier with BGV.

 

Combat

 

Presuming both units charged and have no character auras:

 

- BGV output 25 attacks, granting 17 hits at S5, AP-3, D2

 

- SB output 50 attacks, granting 33 hits at S4, AP-1, D1

 

 

SB will chew through hordes better, BGV will chew through more elite units better.

 

SB much more efficient against Death Guard.

 

If you pay more points you can start to tool up the SB to be more all-comers, but with D1 power swords they're just not as good as the BGV for taking on MEQ.

 

SB have a special strat that lets them turn 6s to hit into two hits, but this just makes them even better at hordes. 

 

 

 

So all in all they just don't really compete with BGV. 

[Medjugorje]

SB durability can be improved. 5++ Vow, 5+++ Litany, and they can still benefit from cover, makes them pretty durable!

Buton a larger Primaris Crusader squad or a Terminator squad or BGV is so much more durable.

[Medjugorje]

Against hordes - a big Crusadersquad is clearly the winner. And BGV do benefit from mini-transhuman

[Brother Kraskor]

Against hordes - a big Crusadersquad is clearly the winner. And BGV do benefit from mini-transhuman

 

 

20 Primaris Crusaders (1SB, 11 Initiates, 8 Neophytes) come to 361pts, 10 SB are 220.

 

Presuming everyone is armed with Chainswords, and both charge, and no auras:

 

- Crusaders produce 61 attacks, SB produce 50. 

 

- However, while the 40mm bases make the SB somewhat unwieldy, you are still much more likely to get more SB attacks into combat with 10 models than the Crusaders with 20. 

 

- Blast weapons will have a field day with the Crusaders, and nearly half the unit only has a 4+ save.

 

- The Crusaders cost more than 50% more than the SB.

 

 

So while the Crusaders obviously have double the number of wounds and will stick around longer, I'd say they're much less efficient for dealing with hordes in combat than SB. 

 

Edit: In fact, you could have 3x units of 5 SB, each with a Thunder Hammer, for 366pts - 5pts more than the Crusaders. Less buffable with Litanies, but much safer from Blast weapons, and much more killy.

Edited October 19, 2021 by Brother Kraskor

[Medjugorje]

but I always calculate with buffs. Because this big crusadersquad is never alone. 

[Brother Kraskor]

Economies of scale will apply to the buffed Crusaders better than a full squad of buffed SB yes, but again you are paying 50% more points than the SB for only 20% more output, and you'll probably never fit them all in the same combat.

Edited October 19, 2021 by Brother Kraskor

[Cryptshadow]

Dont know if anybody has seen this but this is from the codex. Looks like some different poses and one of them is without a doubt a 2-handed grip!

Pretty sure there was a photo by gw thay showed at least 2 units holding the sword with 2 hands

[Marshal Reinhard]

Yeah, we've seen that model in a number of promotional images on articles leading up to the release. I recall commenting on it earlier in another picture.

 

That said, it's worth reiterating that the sword bro kit seems to have a great many bits and possible different combinations. I can't wait to get my hands on it!

[tvih]

 

That said, it's worth reiterating that the sword bro kit seems to have a great many bits and possible different combinations. I can't wait to get my hands on it!

Absolutely. Regardless of what role I end up mostly running them as, it's just such a cool kit.

[Brother Kraskor]

 

 

That said, it's worth reiterating that the sword bro kit seems to have a great many bits and possible different combinations. I can't wait to get my hands on it!

Absolutely. Regardless of what role I end up mostly running them as, it's just such a cool kit.

 

 

Hear hear!

[Sir Clausel]

Yeah I cant wait either! I have some bits form shapeways on the way and some old forge world black templar storm shields just waiting for the kit being released :D

[Kastor Krieg]

Absolutely. Regardless of what role I end up mostly running them as, it's just such a cool kit.

Yeah, I think that a lot of people confuse "having a competetive mindset" with "never EVER take anything that is not Best-In-Slot, scrub". It results in gems like "Sword Brethren BAD", "all Vows horrible, the 5++ one is the only BARELY workable one" and other flavours of doom and gloom.

[9x19 Parabellum]

 

Absolutely. Regardless of what role I end up mostly running them as, it's just such a cool kit.

Yeah, I think that a lot of people confuse "having a competetive mindset" with "never EVER take anything that is not Best-In-Slot, scrub". It results in gems like "Sword Brethren BAD", "all Vows horrible, the 5++ one is the only BARELY workable one" and other flavours of doom and gloom.

 

 

With respect, Krieg, you're the one being hyperbolic here.  Even the forum "doomer" (ie, Medj) has shown himself to be quite reasonable and humble in publicly reversing his opinion on several things.  Many people would simply double down on their opinion.

 

Anyone demonstrating untested & inexperienced optimism is being as dishonest as a person demonstrating untested & inexperienced pessimism. 

 

Sword Brethren are not "bad" just....duplicative/superflous.  They missed a mark in providing a tool that our army does not already have.  They are literally the same statline as Veteran Intercessors, which hardly ever get used.  So, after you finish filling out your troop slots, which will almost always be M:6, low AP, high volume attacks (whether shooting or melee), you then move to Elites to 'flesh out' your army.  And what question do you ask? "You know what I need? More high volume, low AP attacks!"  Probably not. You're going to look to VV for speed. You're going to look to BGV for durability and  you're going to look at Terminators for a 'quick-reaction' strike team.  You're going to look to Dreads for armored fire support.  You're going to look at the Elite Characters for their niche uses; Judic for strike last and Apoth for rezzes.  I could easily justify in my 6 elite slots: BGV, VV, Terms, RedDread, Judic and Apoth, all of which have specific reasons for being there that my Troop choices don't provide.  If you have enough points and/or elite slots left after building your army, maybe, MAYBE you go back and add SB, but I doubt it.

 

This is a public forum where we discuss Black Templar.  It doesn't help any players, new or old, if we sugarcoat and rose-glass our assessment of certain units.  A new BT player doesn't want to spend $100 on SB and 15 hours painting them only to find out they are useless on the tabletop. If he knows beforehand going in they are sub-optimal, great!  Get them for fluff reasons.  At least he won't be shocked at their performance.  I will buy SB kits. I will paint them and love them, but none of that will change if they are good or bad on the table. 

 

I admittedly lack any experience using SB. We all do.  I acknowledge everything I'm discussing is theoryhammer.  So let's discuss it all with that paradigm in mind. 

[Brother Kraskor]

Yeah I cant wait either! I have some bits form shapeways on the way and some old forge world black templar storm shields just waiting for the kit being released

 

Jealous of the FW shields, they're like rocking horse :cuss!

[Charlo]

While Vet intercessors aren't amazing, Sword Brethren do offer more. I think just enough to move into the usable category - especially if you (like me) don't want to just bring another unit of Vanguard Veterans/ are sticking to Primaris.

 

Getting a 5++ and being able to benefit from cover is great. It means they can flootslog at least decently well, a large unit could be effective. They can be made Obj Sec or get exploding hits, which pairs well with their many weapon options.

 

Vitally, over many other Primaris units, they get a good mix of special weapons to bring. Now, in an ideal world they'd be able to get all the same or the Power Swords wouldn't just be D1, but they do get to bring the cool stuff like TH embedded into the squad (though no fists is a weird one!) Whatever you do bring, it's vitally still more than some Assault Intercessors can or any other Primaris unit outside of Bladeguard.

 

Minimum 4 in a unit is another advantage, meaning you can accompany two characters in an Impulsor - a decent boon!

[BitsHammer]

Don't confront my optimism with facts and reality! 

 

That said, 210pts buys you 6 BGV, 220pts buys you 10 SB. Just a quick breakdown:

 

 

Durability

 

BGV natively much better protected yes. 2+/4++ vs 3+.

 

Perhaps there is an argument to be had that taking the 5++ Vow is more efficient on an army with few native invul saves of its own. The Vow does nothing for BGV except deny them cover. However I think we are so likely to be taking the 5++ Vow anyway this is moot. 

 

There's also a greater preponderance of D2 weapons than D3. D2 is obviously very efficient at killing SB and very inefficient for BGV. 

 

SB can use cover in the case of 5++ Vow, but it is going to be hard to hide all ten of them. 

 

BGV also better recipients of Apothecary revivals.

 

Speed

 

The same, except the BGV fit in an Impulsor so they have a very mobile option if you spend the points.

 

Also BGV are 10PL and SB are 14, so Outflanking is easier with BGV.

 

Combat

 

Presuming both units charged and have no character auras:

 

- BGV output 25 attacks, granting 17 hits at S5, AP-3, D2

 

- SB output 50 attacks, granting 33 hits at S4, AP-1, D1

 

 

SB will chew through hordes better, BGV will chew through more elite units better.

 

SB much more efficient against Death Guard.

 

If you pay more points you can start to tool up the SB to be more all-comers, but with D1 power swords they're just not as good as the BGV for taking on MEQ.

 

SB have a special strat that lets them turn 6s to hit into two hits, but this just makes them even better at hordes. 

 

 

 

So all in all they just don't really compete with BGV. 

SB do better against -1D or "reduce damage to 1" models as well thanks to their much higher volume of attacks.

 

And SB also fit in Impulsors.

[a_typical_hero]

SB do better against -1D or "reduce damage to 1" models as well thanks to their much higher volume of attacks.

 

 

And SB also fit in Impulsors.

 

The equal amount of points in the compariron don't fit into the Impulsor. I think that was meant with it.

[BitsHammer]

 

SB do better against -1D or "reduce damage to 1" models as well thanks to their much higher volume of attacks.

 

 

And SB also fit in Impulsors.

 

The equal amount of points in the compariron don't fit into the Impulsor. I think that was meant with it.

 

Fair I guess. But that means SB are cheaper to toss in an Impulsor and toss into a list.