Sword brethren loadout

[Kastor Krieg]

With respect, Krieg, you're the one being hyperbolic here.

Nope, those are the opinions on SB floating around on the internet.

 

Anyone demonstrating untested & inexperienced optimism is being as dishonest as a person demonstrating untested & inexperienced pessimism.

And there's a huge ass gray area between the two, while the interwebs love their extremes. QED.

 

 

Sword Brethren are not "bad" just....duplicative/superflous.  They missed a mark in providing a tool that our army does not already have.  They are literally the same statline as Veteran Intercessors, which hardly ever get used.  So, after you finish filling out your troop slots, which will almost always be M:6, low AP, high volume attacks (whether shooting or melee), you then move to Elites to 'flesh out' your army.  And what question do you ask? "You know what I need? More high volume, low AP attacks!"  Probably not. You're going to look to VV for speed. You're going to look to BGV for durability and  you're going to look at Terminators for a 'quick-reaction' strike team.  You're going to look to Dreads for armored fire support.  You're going to look at the Elite Characters for their niche uses; Judic for strike last and Apoth for rezzes.  I could easily justify in my 6 elite slots: BGV, VV, Terms, RedDread, Judic and Apoth, all of which have specific reasons for being there that my Troop choices don't provide.  If you have enough points and/or elite slots left after building your army, maybe, MAYBE you go back and add SB, but I doubt it.

See, this is analysis. This is what we need to be talking about, and I wasn't talking about voices like this, but the overbearing EVERYTHINGISBROKENFOREVER voices, both here and on the rest of the internet. 

 

 

This is a public forum where we discuss Black Templar.  It doesn't help any players, new or old, if we sugarcoat and rose-glass our assessment of certain units.  A new BT player doesn't want to spend $100 on SB and 15 hours painting them only to find out they are useless on the tabletop. If he knows beforehand going in they are sub-optimal, great!  Get them for fluff reasons.  At least he won't be shocked at their performance.  I will buy SB kits. I will paint them and love them, but none of that will change if they are good or bad on the table.

Just as well we do not need or want to scare the newbie off cool kits with the "Meh, USELESS!" talk.

• First thing - they may not even play the game at all. They might be a collector, modeller, a painter.
• Second - even if they play, it's most likely soda/beerhammer with friends, none of whom are top100 in ITC/ETC.
• Third, even if they do play comp, we still do not want to scare them off the unit, because with a set of fresh eyes and experience from other games they might come up with a combo that isn't obvious to the old 40k guard. It might not be The Most Optimized Combo In The World, but it could be workable and it could win them games, even leagues or tournaments.

All the "X unit is useless" talk is worse than useless, it's actively damaging. I don't mean or want people to be all rose tinted glasses - but an analysis full of merit and shown relevance is useful, informative of the designs choices and mistakes made. Flat out statements of "X unit is useless, don't buy it, because Y unit exists and does the same thing better" are, well, useless.

 

I admittedly lack any experience using SB. We all do.  I acknowledge everything I'm discussing is theoryhammer.  So let's discuss it all with that paradigm in mind.

And that's what I'm asking for - less of the definitive "end all be all" statements of "fact", more of a brainstorm.

 

[Brother Kraskor]

 

Don't confront my optimism with facts and reality! 

 

That said, 210pts buys you 6 BGV, 220pts buys you 10 SB. Just a quick breakdown:

 

 

Durability

 

BGV natively much better protected yes. 2+/4++ vs 3+.

 

Perhaps there is an argument to be had that taking the 5++ Vow is more efficient on an army with few native invul saves of its own. The Vow does nothing for BGV except deny them cover. However I think we are so likely to be taking the 5++ Vow anyway this is moot. 

 

There's also a greater preponderance of D2 weapons than D3. D2 is obviously very efficient at killing SB and very inefficient for BGV. 

 

SB can use cover in the case of 5++ Vow, but it is going to be hard to hide all ten of them. 

 

BGV also better recipients of Apothecary revivals.

 

Speed

 

The same, except the BGV fit in an Impulsor so they have a very mobile option if you spend the points.

 

Also BGV are 10PL and SB are 14, so Outflanking is easier with BGV.

 

Combat

 

Presuming both units charged and have no character auras:

 

- BGV output 25 attacks, granting 17 hits at S5, AP-3, D2

 

- SB output 50 attacks, granting 33 hits at S4, AP-1, D1

 

 

SB will chew through hordes better, BGV will chew through more elite units better.

 

SB much more efficient against Death Guard.

 

If you pay more points you can start to tool up the SB to be more all-comers, but with D1 power swords they're just not as good as the BGV for taking on MEQ.

 

SB have a special strat that lets them turn 6s to hit into two hits, but this just makes them even better at hordes. 

 

 

 

So all in all they just don't really compete with BGV. 

SB do better against -1D or "reduce damage to 1" models as well thanks to their much higher volume of attacks.

 

And SB also fit in Impulsors.

 

 

a_typical_hero is correct, I meant by comparing the units at equal points value. You could of course reduce the size of either unit to fit in the Impulsor.

 

As for the -1D point, I covered that with Death Guard - agreed they are much more efficient there!

Edited October 19, 2021 by Brother Kraskor

[9x19 Parabellum]

I think we are more or less violently agreeing except on one point...

 

I don't think the criticism is as ill-thought as you do.

And I don't think it's any more or less severe than the optimism.

[9x19 Parabellum]

 

a_typical_hero is correct, I meant by comparing the units at equal points value. You could of course reduce the size of either unit to fit in the Impulsor.

 

As for the -1D point, I covered that with Death Guard - agreed they are much more efficient there!

 

 

NOTE TO READER: MASSIVE EDITS HERE DUE TO MY BAD MATHS. PSA: DONT PRACTICE UNSAFE MATHING.

 

Hold up; the BGV are going to wound DG on 4's (although they waste a point of damage)

The SB with ChSw are going to wound on 5's (but not waste the damage).

 

6 SB with chainswords do 31 attacks on charge, hit 20.7 times, wound 6.9 times, and cause 3.5 unsaved wounds (not in assault doc) or 4.6 wounds (assault doc)

5 SB with power swords do 21 attacks on charge, hit 14 times, wound 7 times and cause 5.8 unsaved wounds (not in assault doc) or 7 wounds (assault doc)

4 BGV with MC power swords to 17 attacks on charge, hit 11.3 times, wound 5.7 times and cause 4.7 unsaved wounds (not in assault doc) or 5.7 wounds (assault doc)

 

 

5 SB w/ Power Swords = 125 pts (89% of BGV cost)

6 SB w/ Chainswords = 132 pts (94% of BGV cost)

4 BGV w/ MC P Swords = 140 pts (100% of BGV cost)

 

SB with power swords are getting ~122% wounding potential of BGV , regardless of doctrine.

SB with Chain swords are getting 75%-80% of wounding potential of BGV , depending on doctrine.

 

REVISED SUMMARY:

SB with Power Swords kill more DG, point-for-point, than BGV, (about 33% more effective)

SB with Chainswords kill less DG, point-for-point, than BGV (about 15% less effective)

Edited October 19, 2021 by 9x19 Parabellum

[General Strike]

All I've got to say is I will buy one box to make into a squad of Sword Bros, and one to build as Bladeguard Veterans. I will use the fifth in the first box to build a sixth bladeguard veteran with the second box. I don't win much anyway, so I guess as long as they look really cool. 

[BitsHammer]

 

 

 

Don't confront my optimism with facts and reality! 

 

That said, 210pts buys you 6 BGV, 220pts buys you 10 SB. Just a quick breakdown:

 

 

Durability

 

BGV natively much better protected yes. 2+/4++ vs 3+.

 

Perhaps there is an argument to be had that taking the 5++ Vow is more efficient on an army with few native invul saves of its own. The Vow does nothing for BGV except deny them cover. However I think we are so likely to be taking the 5++ Vow anyway this is moot. 

 

There's also a greater preponderance of D2 weapons than D3. D2 is obviously very efficient at killing SB and very inefficient for BGV. 

 

SB can use cover in the case of 5++ Vow, but it is going to be hard to hide all ten of them. 

 

BGV also better recipients of Apothecary revivals.

 

Speed

 

The same, except the BGV fit in an Impulsor so they have a very mobile option if you spend the points.

 

Also BGV are 10PL and SB are 14, so Outflanking is easier with BGV.

 

Combat

 

Presuming both units charged and have no character auras:

 

- BGV output 25 attacks, granting 17 hits at S5, AP-3, D2

 

- SB output 50 attacks, granting 33 hits at S4, AP-1, D1

 

 

SB will chew through hordes better, BGV will chew through more elite units better.

 

SB much more efficient against Death Guard.

 

If you pay more points you can start to tool up the SB to be more all-comers, but with D1 power swords they're just not as good as the BGV for taking on MEQ.

 

SB have a special strat that lets them turn 6s to hit into two hits, but this just makes them even better at hordes. 

 

 

 

So all in all they just don't really compete with BGV. 

SB do better against -1D or "reduce damage to 1" models as well thanks to their much higher volume of attacks.

 

And SB also fit in Impulsors.

 

 

a_typical_hero is correct, I meant by comparing the units at equal points value. You could of course reduce the size of either unit to fit in the Impulsor.

 

As for the -1D point, I covered that with Death Guard - agreed they are much more efficient there!

 

 

Hold up; the BGV are going to wound DG on 4's (although they waste a point of damage)

The SB are going to wound on 5's (but not waste the damage).

 

6 SB with chainswords do 31 attacks on charge, hit 20.7 times, wound 6.9 times, and cause 3.5 unsaved wounds (not in assault doc) or 4.6 wounds (assault doc)

5 SB with power swords do 21 attacks on charge, hit 14 times, wound 4.7 times and cause 3.9 unsaved wounds (not in assault doc) or 4.7 wounds (assault doc)

4 BGV with MC power swords to 17 attacks on charge, hit 11.3 times, wound 5.7 times and cause 4.7 unsaved wounds (not in assault doc) or 5.7 wounds (assault doc)

 

 

5 SB w/ Power Swords = 125 pts (89% of BGV cost)

6 SB w/ Chainswords = 132 pts (94% of BGV cost)

4 BGV w/ MC P Swords = 140 pts (100% of BGV cost)

 

SB with power swords are getting 83% wounding potential of BGV , regardless of doctrine.

SB with Chain swords are getting 75%-80% of wounding potential of BGV , depending on doctrine.

 

Regardless of loadout, BGV kill more DG, point-for-point, than SB do.

 

Now what about using SB's strat?

[9x19 Parabellum]

Oof. Ok, forgive me if my stats are wrong, as I'm no stat-fu master, but I think we have:

 

6 SB with chainswords do 31 attacks on charge, hit 20.7 times+3.4 (exploding 6's) = wound 8 times, and cause 4 unsaved wounds (not in assault doc) or 5.3 wounds (assault doc)

5 SB with power swords do 21 attacks on charge, hit 14 times+2.3 (exploding 6's) = wound 5.4 times and cause 4.5 unsaved wounds (not in assault doc) or 5.4 wounds (assault doc)

4 BGV with MC power swords to 17 attacks on charge, hit 11.3 times, wound 5.7 times and cause 4.7 unsaved wounds (not in assault doc) or 5.7 wounds (assault doc)

 

Divided by points cost we get: 

 

SB with power swords are getting ~95% wounding potential of BGV , regardless of doctrine, meaning they have better efficiency in either doctrine.

SB with Chain swords are getting 85%-93% of wounding potential of BGV , depending on doctrine.  worse efficiency in both doctrines than BGV.

 

So, TL;DR, yes, if SB use the exploding 6's Stratagem (Exemplars of the Crusade), they get a little better efficiency in killing DG than BGV with powerswords, and they are still a little worse efficient than BGV.

 

EDIT: changed summary to reflect efficiency per cost.

Edited October 19, 2021 by 9x19 Parabellum

[Brother Kraskor]

 

 

 

 

a_typical_hero is correct, I meant by comparing the units at equal points value. You could of course reduce the size of either unit to fit in the Impulsor.

 

As for the -1D point, I covered that with Death Guard - agreed they are much more efficient there!

 

 

Hold up; the BGV are going to wound DG on 4's (although they waste a point of damage)

The SB are going to wound on 5's (but not waste the damage).

 

6 SB with chainswords do 31 attacks on charge, hit 20.7 times, wound 6.9 times, and cause 3.5 unsaved wounds (not in assault doc) or 4.6 wounds (assault doc)

5 SB with power swords do 21 attacks on charge, hit 14 times, wound 4.7 times and cause 3.9 unsaved wounds (not in assault doc) or 4.7 wounds (assault doc)

4 BGV with MC power swords to 17 attacks on charge, hit 11.3 times, wound 5.7 times and cause 4.7 unsaved wounds (not in assault doc) or 5.7 wounds (assault doc)

 

 

5 SB w/ Power Swords = 125 pts (89% of BGV cost)

6 SB w/ Chainswords = 132 pts (94% of BGV cost)

4 BGV w/ MC P Swords = 140 pts (100% of BGV cost)

 

SB with power swords are getting 83% wounding potential of BGV , regardless of doctrine.

SB with Chain swords are getting 75%-80% of wounding potential of BGV , depending on doctrine.

 

Regardless of loadout, BGV kill more DG, point-for-point, than SB do.

 

 

Serves me right for assuming and not crunching the numbers on that one! So SB don't even have that going for them 

 

Though like you say the Strat lets them just edge it. Not a resounding victory for them though given the other factors.

Edited October 19, 2021 by Brother Kraskor

[BitsHammer]

 

 

 

 

 

a_typical_hero is correct, I meant by comparing the units at equal points value. You could of course reduce the size of either unit to fit in the Impulsor.

 

As for the -1D point, I covered that with Death Guard - agreed they are much more efficient there!

 

 

Hold up; the BGV are going to wound DG on 4's (although they waste a point of damage)

The SB are going to wound on 5's (but not waste the damage).

 

6 SB with chainswords do 31 attacks on charge, hit 20.7 times, wound 6.9 times, and cause 3.5 unsaved wounds (not in assault doc) or 4.6 wounds (assault doc)

5 SB with power swords do 21 attacks on charge, hit 14 times, wound 4.7 times and cause 3.9 unsaved wounds (not in assault doc) or 4.7 wounds (assault doc)

4 BGV with MC power swords to 17 attacks on charge, hit 11.3 times, wound 5.7 times and cause 4.7 unsaved wounds (not in assault doc) or 5.7 wounds (assault doc)

 

 

5 SB w/ Power Swords = 125 pts (89% of BGV cost)

6 SB w/ Chainswords = 132 pts (94% of BGV cost)

4 BGV w/ MC P Swords = 140 pts (100% of BGV cost)

 

SB with power swords are getting 83% wounding potential of BGV , regardless of doctrine.

SB with Chain swords are getting 75%-80% of wounding potential of BGV , depending on doctrine.

 

Regardless of loadout, BGV kill more DG, point-for-point, than SB do.

 

 

Serves me right for assuming and not crunching the numbers on that one! So SB don't even have that going for them 

 

Though like you say the Strat lets them just edge it. Not a resounding victory for them though given the other factors.

 

Being cheaper and coming out ahead in any situation is a win.

[9x19 Parabellum]

 

 

 

 

Serves me right for assuming and not crunching the numbers on that one! So SB don't even have that going for them 

 

Though like you say the Strat lets them just edge it. Not a resounding victory for them though given the other factors.

 

Being cheaper and coming out ahead in any situation is a win.

 

 

They come out ahead when using Power Swords, not when using Chainswords though. 

AND...that's before you compare durability, in which case, BGV blow SB out of the water.

Edited October 19, 2021 by 9x19 Parabellum

[Oxydo]

Oof. Ok, forgive me if my stats are wrong, as I'm no stat-fu master, but I think we have:

 

6 SB with chainswords do 31 attacks on charge, hit 20.7 times+3.4 (exploding 6's) = wound 8 times, and cause 4 unsaved wounds (not in assault doc) or 5.3 wounds (assault doc)

5 SB with power swords do 21 attacks on charge, hit 14 times+2.3 (exploding 6's) = wound 5.4 times and cause 4.5 unsaved wounds (not in assault doc) or 5.4 wounds (assault doc)

4 BGV with MC power swords to 17 attacks on charge, hit 11.3 times, wound 5.7 times and cause 4.7 unsaved wounds (not in assault doc) or 5.7 wounds (assault doc)

 

Divided by points cost we get: 

 

SB with power swords are getting ~95% wounding potential of BGV , regardless of doctrine, meaning they have better efficiency in either doctrine.

SB with Chain swords are getting 85%-93% of wounding potential of BGV , depending on doctrine.  worse efficiency in both doctrines than BGV.

 

So, TL;DR, yes, if SB use the exploding 6's Stratagem (Exemplars of the Crusade), they get a little better efficiency in killing DG than BGV with powerswords, and they are still a little worse efficient than BGV.

 

EDIT: changed summary to reflect efficiency per cost.

Why are the SB wounding DG on 5s insead of 4s with powerswords? All powerswords are +1 Strength now, not just MC powerswords.

[9x19 Parabellum]

 

Oof. Ok, forgive me if my stats are wrong, as I'm no stat-fu master, but I think we have:

 

6 SB with chainswords do 31 attacks on charge, hit 20.7 times+3.4 (exploding 6's) = wound 8 times, and cause 4 unsaved wounds (not in assault doc) or 5.3 wounds (assault doc)

5 SB with power swords do 21 attacks on charge, hit 14 times+2.3 (exploding 6's) = wound 5.4 times and cause 4.5 unsaved wounds (not in assault doc) or 5.4 wounds (assault doc)

4 BGV with MC power swords to 17 attacks on charge, hit 11.3 times, wound 5.7 times and cause 4.7 unsaved wounds (not in assault doc) or 5.7 wounds (assault doc)

 

Divided by points cost we get: 

 

SB with power swords are getting ~95% wounding potential of BGV , regardless of doctrine, meaning they have better efficiency in either doctrine.

SB with Chain swords are getting 85%-93% of wounding potential of BGV , depending on doctrine.  worse efficiency in both doctrines than BGV.

 

So, TL;DR, yes, if SB use the exploding 6's Stratagem (Exemplars of the Crusade), they get a little better efficiency in killing DG than BGV with powerswords, and they are still a little worse efficient than BGV.

 

EDIT: changed summary to reflect efficiency per cost.

Why are the SB wounding DG on 5s insead of 4s with powerswords? All powerswords are +1 Strength now, not just MC powerswords.

 

 

Um....because MASSIVE FAILURE. that's why.

[Mandragola]

As well as efficiency, actual cost is also relevant. 5 SBs cost ~50 points less than 5 BGVs, which allows you to do some other thing with your 50 points. There are going to be plenty of situations where 5 SBs charging out of an impulsor will get the job done well enough. By following this approach across an army you can probably end up with a whole extra unit, which can be somewhere else doing something useful - or perhaps teaming up to tackle something that 5 SBs can't handle alone.

 

Overall I think SBs are fine but I broadly agree with Parabellum's analysis that you could easily fill up 6 elite slots without taking any. They do have a niche but it's not a big one and the elite slot is absurdly crowded. I think you could very well start a lot of BT armies by adding 3 Redemptors, for example. BGVs in impulsors look great and things like Aggressors look well worth considering once you add a 5++. Those kinds of thing just seem like higher priority units to include than the SBs do, fine though they are.

 

Even basic assault intercessors compete pretty well against them, I think. Obsec (for free) is great. They also have that fight twice strat, which makes them a potentially interesting option for the bones of Mordred - actually more so than a lightning claw SB. Or of course the Fist of Balthus swinging twice could be fun.

[Medjugorje]

While Vet intercessors aren't amazing, Sword Brethren do offer more. I think just enough to move into the usable category - especially if you (like me) don't want to just bring another unit of Vanguard Veterans/ are sticking to Primaris.

 

Getting a 5++ and being able to benefit from cover is great. It means they can flootslog at least decently well, a large unit could be effective. They can be made Obj Sec or get exploding hits, which pairs well with their many weapon options.

 

Vitally, over many other Primaris units, they get a good mix of special weapons to bring. Now, in an ideal world they'd be able to get all the same or the Power Swords wouldn't just be D1, but they do get to bring the cool stuff like TH embedded into the squad (though no fists is a weird one!) Whatever you do bring, it's vitally still more than some Assault Intercessors can or any other Primaris unit outside of Bladeguard.

 

Minimum 4 in a unit is another advantage, meaning you can accompany two characters in an Impulsor - a decent boon!

But what they offer is just what makes them not to the"worst" like Vet Intercessors. They are okay. But nothing more.  They can do everything but there is always a unit which do that aspect clearly better.

 

As a competitive player every time i pick up a SB unit - later as the list building goes on they are replaced by another unit. And they dont have that "amazing" stratagem for use them in a specific way. The last thing which would be fluffy - would be the bodyguard role which company veterans have. This would be a specific role in a list which could be a thing for strictly Primaris/non-Firstborn lists. But they dont have that.

At least they could be that good if an impulsor has more capacity or Repulsors would get a point drop about 120 points. 

 

We WANT to play them. Thats why we discuss hear - maybe there is a way to use them. But sadly it is not the case. But again - if you dont play competitive ( and there is not just competetive or totally fluff gaming but a more variety of ways people play the game towards the one or ohter side) they are not Trash and if I would play agaist a BT in a tournament I know that they can hurt. 

 

@Reclusiarch Kieg - about everyhing is broken. Sorry but if you play that game in competiitve and try to find some ways with a NEW book but suddenly see that there are rare ways to play against Drukhari and Admech then you know that you will have at least one game in a tourney where you can try and try but get beaten by (maybe) even a weaker player. Especially when you were hyped like I used to be. 

 

And I like to say what I think and dont talking around things. If I think a rule is weak then I say thats clear. Everybody shoulld be openminded and think about my opinion and maybe its a help because they didnt saw the weakness in some things which would harm them if they play that unit/rule/Vow .... 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

5 SB w/ Power Swords = 125 pts (89% of BGV cost)

6 SB w/ Chainswords = 132 pts (94% of BGV cost)

4 BGV w/ MC P Swords = 140 pts (100% of BGV cost)

 

SB with power swords are getting 83% wounding potential of BGV , regardless of doctrine.

SB with Chain swords are getting 75%-80% of wounding potential of BGV , depending on doctrine.

 

Regardless of loadout, BGV kill more DG, point-for-point, than SB do.

 

Now what about using SB's strat?

 

 

If you do that then you should do the comparison with each vow and both with autowound stratagem. 

And of course thats just their output. Not their input which is far greater for BGV

[Medjugorje]

constantly planning for a new competitve list. 

Seems if Sword Brethren would come into close combat they could destroy an entire unit of Skitarii blob of 20.  Problem: there is not a transport which can transport 10 SB or any other kind of movement for them. (Rupulsor does not exist!!!!!!!!!). Although there are still Vanguards Vets. 

 

I hope GW will adress the lack of movement for them in later point drops. 

[Charlo]

But the Repulsor does exist and has a 5++! :D

[jaxom]

Does the extra vow litany also come with the passion? If it does then I could see SB being a good target for AAC as a counter assault unit hiding in terrain near an objective.

[Medjugorje]

Does the extra vow litany also come with the passion? If it does then I could see SB being a good target for AAC as a counter assault unit hiding in terrain near an objective.

yes. I would say so. 

 

@Repulsor. 350 points?? Hell no.

[a_typical_hero]

Does the extra vow litany also come with the passion? If it does then I could see SB being a good target for AAC as a counter assault unit hiding in terrain near an objective.

Based on the wording, I would say "yes".

 

You don't select a "Vow" (as in: the beneficial effect), you select a "Templar Vow" (top left of page 44-45). A Templar Vow include both the "Vow" and the "Passion" part.

You gain the effect of the selected vow. Page 44-45 say "While this vow is in effect" and then list both Vow and Passion.

[Charlo]

 

Does the extra vow litany also come with the passion? If it does then I could see SB being a good target for AAC as a counter assault unit hiding in terrain near an objective.

yes. I would say so. 

 

@Repulsor. 350 points?? Hell no.

 

You can make it sub 300 with no upgrades... Or 315 with a Multi-melta

[Medjugorje]

 

 

Does the extra vow litany also come with the passion? If it does then I could see SB being a good target for AAC as a counter assault unit hiding in terrain near an objective.

yes. I would say so. 

 

@Repulsor. 350 points?? Hell no.

 

You can make it sub 300 with no upgrades... Or 315 with a Multi-melta

 

-150 points then I would play it. But everything over 200 points is a mess.

[9x19 Parabellum]

I don't know about that; I'm with Charlo.  I think a 5++ is exactly what a Repulsor needs to be in the game.  Have you tried it or played it Medj?  I think it can do some work.

[Sword Brother Adelard]

 

 

 

Does the extra vow litany also come with the passion? If it does then I could see SB being a good target for AAC as a counter assault unit hiding in terrain near an objective.

yes. I would say so. 

 

@Repulsor. 350 points?? Hell no.

 

You can make it sub 300 with no upgrades... Or 315 with a Multi-melta

 

-150 points then I would play it. But everything over 200 points is a mess.

 

 

150 points and everyone would have 6? 

[tvih]

I don't know about that; I'm with Charlo.  I think a 5++ is exactly what a Repulsor needs to be in the game.  Have you tried it or played it Medj?  I think it can do some work.

But the question as always is, what could something else do instead? Many better (admittedly non-transport) options lack a native invul save as well, so they're still the better pick with the buff. It is simply too expensive. -150 points would be ridiculous, but -50 would be the bare minimum, really. For the barebones cost of 295 points I'd rather take even two Vindicators with siege shields for 2+ 5++ T8 goodness. Might not transport Sword Brethren or anything else with them, but even so.

 

Personally I'll just try to Impulsor with MM and see how it goes. I might rather put SB in there than BGV if fielding both at the same time, since the latter are more expensive and thus a bigger loss if the transport blows up with them still in it. Generally likely to lose at least one model from a squad of 5-6 after all, and with my rolls at least three.

[Medjugorje]

I don't know about that; I'm with Charlo.  I think a 5++ is exactly what a Repulsor needs to be in the game.  Have you tried it or played it Medj?  I think it can do some work.

Yes. I had in a few fungames with old codex. And I know how durable an Impulsor is. And you can have 2 for one Repulsor ( in old codex already with 5++).

 

5++ does not mean that cant be destroyed. With 5++ maybe 250 points would make maybe close to "okay" if you bring 3. But with that point costs its just crazy. 

 

But like I said. Maybe GW will see a possiblity that people want buy that vehicle because we need them for our new SB and MM option. 

So I hope it will happen and GW reduces its cost massive.