Dice Woes

[Master Antaeus]

So I have a regular opponent who plays Dark Angels. He's a good sport and builds tough armies but playing him isn't fun.

 

You see, his dice rolls are atomic fire. In over ten games, he consistently makes 4/5 or more of his invulnerable saves and has failed less than 10 2+ armor saves in all that time, out of about 80 total saves from various armies that I play against him.

 

Today, I asked him to use worst set of dice and while I rolled a decent game, his saves were predictably good such that in 3 full turns of concentrated fire from almost my whole GSC army of 2500 points, I was able to kill a terminator apothecary and a venerable dreadnought in 2 turns. Against the deathwing knights, I had single-minded obsession, a jackal alphus' targeting ability and a kelermorph adding to the shooting. Nothing.

 

Then in assault, 15 Acolytes with 6 mining weapons between them AND might from beyond bounced off bladeguard. 0 unsaved wounds.

 

What am I supposed to do here? I told him playing against him wasn't fun and he was understandably frustrated, but how do I defeat causality?

[Marshal Loss]

Sell your soul to the Dark Gods.

 

Unfortunately, luck is luck. If he isn't using janky dice then it is what it is - things should average out in the long run. I'd have a chat to him about it if he's a good sport, as you say, and see if you can come to an arrangement where he tones down his list a bit. Carefully explaining to him why you're not having fun when it's not in the heat of the moment may produce better results.

 

More importantly, luck aside, I'd also point out that you're using an 8th edition book (and a weak one at that) against a 9th edition book. There's a massive power imbalance between your two armies. Luckily as you're no doubt aware GSC are getting their 9th edition book in the next few months which may well tip the scales in your favour and offer you the options you need to counteract his rolls.

[Warhead01]

What to do.?

I might suggest looking for GW battle Dice for him to roll. these were the worst dice ever produced and my preferred bad dice. If you look on ebay you might be able to find a set or two for around 20usd or less, if you can find them. I own them because the red dice in those sets match the old red dice from other OG boxed game, Necromunda and 2nd ed 40K, old wfb too. 
Now I can't swear this will do what your looking for but these dice are so poorly made that it is entirely possible. I've rolled them for my Orks for 20+ years now. some times they are fire most of the times not so much. But I just like them and stuck with them. 
Again I can't prove those will do what your looking for but they might. 

Other than that. maybe a dice rolling tray, felt lined box or box top to roll in to help your own dice or maybe share a dice pool with your friend to even the odds, and maybe save a small bit of time during a game. 

I read an article about lucky rolls or people who always roll good or bad and it boiled down to what we focus on. if we only see all the bad rolls we consider our selves unlucky and so on. 
I say roll me a six 90% of the time I need a good high roll and they do pop up some times several in a row on different dice. I doubt I am making that happen but it does happen more often than not, seems to me. Or it just happens when it happens, can't say.

[Master Antaeus]

I can appreciate the feedback, but it's not a question of codex power. I would be fine with a simple defeat.

 

Example: unit of 5 deathwing knights is targeted by the Jackal Alphus AND single-minded obsession on my Magus.

 

The shooting phase, I fire:

6 heavy mining lasers

12 heavy stubbers

14 autoguns

4 mining lasers

Silencer sniper rifle

Alphus sniper rifle

3 lascannons

 

All with +1 to hit and re-rolling all wounds. One DWK suffered 2 wounds.

[Kastor Krieg]

Agree to roll with the same set of identical 10 dice. Nobody can have an upper hand this way.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Yeah, use his dice.

[tychobi]

"Today I asked him to use worst set of dice. . . ". Can you explain what this means?

[Warhead01]

"Today I asked him to use worst set of dice. . . ". Can you explain what this means?

I think the idea is that his dice are too lucks and so it's more like can you use your least lucky set of dice.

 

Agree to roll with the same set of identical 10 dice. Nobody can have an upper hand this way.

Why only 10 dice. Is that even enough? 

[Bryan Blaire]

If you think something is up with the player’s dice, ask that you both roll with a set, yours or his/hers - establish this before the game.

 

If you think the other player is bending the rules to benefit her/himself, ask to read that player’s ‘Dex, try to get your head around the rules quickly, and ask him/her to walk you through how they are getting their results for a roll.

 

If you think the other person is just lucky - there’s not a lot you can do about that except change your frame of reference.

 

Marshall Loss is correct though - playing a low powered 8th Ed ‘Dex against a higher powered 9th Ed one may be negating any luck factor at all - it’s just extremely hard to play effectively against the kind of power imbalance you are probably set up with for that.

[MARK0SIAN]

You could ask him to roll for you too, then at least you’re both getting his luck!

 

If you aren’t contesting that there’s something wrong with his actual dice (which I don’t think you are) then there’s nothing much you can do about someone being lucky. As for the numbers, only failing around 10 2+ rolls out of 80 isn’t that far from average which is roughly 14, it just feels like a huge amount to pass.

 

I’ve also experienced situations in games where some unit has seemed utterly unkillable and ludicrously broken. But when you then look in detail at the list/situation you can see that a hell of a lot of resources (points, relics, character buffs, warlord traits and psychic powers) have been put into that unit to make it that way. Is it possible you’ve been up against that sort of situation?

 

Failing that I think you’ll just have to look for strategies to win that don’t require killing a lot of stuff (I know that’s easier said than done). Try outmanoeuvring him, or tarpit his key units with chaff or try to zone out any deepstriking Terminators.

Edited December 12, 2021 by MARK0SIAN

[Kastor Krieg]

Agree to roll with the same set of identical 10 dice. Nobody can have an upper hand this way.

Why only 10 dice. Is that even enough? 

because if he's in fact cheating, it will be much harder for him to hid the crooked die or make you unable to use it

b

[Warhead01]

 

Agree to roll with the same set of identical 10 dice. Nobody can have an upper hand this way.

Why only 10 dice. Is that even enough? 

because if he's in fact cheating, it will be much harder for him to hid the crooked die or make you unable to use it

b

 

Gotcha. I didn't think the op was saying they thought their opponent was cheating, just very lucky. 

I know a dice cheater. His trick was dice with a symbol for a 6 on one set of dice and an identical set that wasn't identical, the symbol was on the one on the second set. Old battle tech dice.  He's the only one I have ever encountered. But I know about playing against lucky dice rollers. It does get frustrating. Especially when my own dice get ice cold on me. 

[MegaVolt87]

Plot twist- OP's army isn't fully painted, while the DA are painted + fully based. The dice gods punish unpainted armies. 

[Master Antaeus]

I don't think he's cheating; he can't be. He used my worst set of dice in our last game.

 

I just have to accept that in ten (now eleven) games, I consistently roll okay and He consistently rolls atomic fire.

 

Codex disparity doesn't really matter here. It doesn't matter what unit shot 7 lascannon shots with +1 to hit and full re-rolls to wound. He made every save for that phase and the fight phase.

 

Are Deathwing broken? Yeah, a little, when you add up all the advantages. Not enough to make a game utterly unwinnable.

 

It is the combination of strong rules and unassailable dice rolls across a long string of games that has me upset. Nothing to be done except stop playing.

[gideon stargreave]

This story reminds me of playing necrons with my blood angels in 6th edition. Or was it 7th? Necrons were just about unkillable and my blood angelz had gotten a hard nerf in an edition change. I remember almost giving up in one game when my death company and death company dread were charged by wraiths and just stood there for the rest of the game doing nothing

[WarriorFish]

Yes, as mentioned have you been sure to fully paint your army? Sometimes it really does feel like there's such a thing as luck, whether consistently or in a game. For example my rolling for important weapons seems mediocre (or outright terrible for melta), but if it's bolters? Hits galore Or the game I had last week where my Executioner rolls like a man possessed only for everything to bounce off.

 

Perhaps there is something to be done though, even if it doesn't make a difference I always prefer rolls when the dice have the space and opportunity to roll. Maybe if you mimic his rolling methods some of the shine can rub off on you?

[Brother Casman]

Swap armies for a game, maybe?

[Leonaides]

I don't think he's cheating; he can't be. He used my worst set of dice in our last game.

 

I just have to accept that in ten (now eleven) games, I consistently roll okay and He consistently rolls atomic fire.

 

Codex disparity doesn't really matter here. It doesn't matter what unit shot 7 lascannon shots with +1 to hit and full re-rolls to wound. He made every save for that phase and the fight phase.

 

Are Deathwing broken? Yeah, a little, when you add up all the advantages. Not enough to make a game utterly unwinnable.

 

It is the combination of strong rules and unassailable dice rolls across a long string of games that has me upset. Nothing to be done except stop playing.

So, what you are saying is he made 7 invulnerable saves of a 3++ (or 2++ if he popped a psychic power or something? - im not sure). Thats meaningless. I've had rolls where i've hit 9 times out of 10 with 3+ to hit rolls in CC, ive also had rolls where i've failed 10 4+ saves at a time. You are focussing on the bad/unsuccessful, not looking at the common or likely outcomes. mathhammer will help you with that and for low ROF weapons it can be really swingy. i could say why were you shooting lascannon equivalents at terminators if there were any other alternative targets - they are the infantry most likely to be able to tank those shots and walk away from it intact. 

 

If you want to bleed terminators, you want high ROF weapons (or LOTS of single-shot weapons) and you pretty much kill them by a thousand cuts. 48 lasgun shots might cause 1 failed save on a terminator, so maybe rethink your expectation of likely damage, try not to get too hyped up with potential damage outcome.

[Master Antaeus]

I feel like I'm not explaining this correctly.  I'm on my actual PC now and have a full keyboard, so let me attempt this again.

 

I have 5 armies.  Space Marines, Orks, Guard/Custodes, Drukhari and Genestealer Cults.  My armies are all fully painted except GSC because I got them 3 weeks ago.  That said, they are mostly painted.

 

I have played 11 games against this opponent with various builds of the armies above since I started keeping track.  I have always noted that my opponent has had consistently excellent dice rolls both offensively and defensively.  To summarize, in most of these games, my opponent will move a unit of TH/SS terminators or DW knights to an objective and I have shot virtually my entire army at them and caused 0 or occasionally a single casualty.  These units then go on to counter charge and annihilate everything they touch.

 

I have been playing this game for 20 years through thick and thin and I have never seen anything like this.  It's just this opponent and I've had him use my dice, so he's definitely not cheating.  There is no good explanation.

[WarriorFish]

If he's not cheating there's only two explanations I can think of: he has learned some dice rolling art, or he really is that lucky (ask him for some lottery numbers you can play).

 

I still remember the time I watched someone's die roll 1s after 1s until when angered enough we watched him throw it away - only to land on yet another 1. Extremely unlikely but that is not the same as impossible. Ask any lottery winner

[Xenith]

Mortal wounds are the answer. Take away your opponents ability to roll.

[Xenith]

On a different note, I fully appreciate the frustration. A recent game against an opponent they rolled a 5+ on over 50% of their rolls, like you, entire army shot at a greater Daemon for ~1 wound. I think they were using more straight edges casino style dice though. It got so bad that I was calling their rolls, and got them right on a disturbing number of occasions "double six".

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

@Master Antaeus - In the OP you mentioned 2500 points of GSC is that your standard game size? Cause an army like Deathwing will really benefit from those extra points, and I'm not sure if any of the five armies you listed you really can leverage those extra point that well for the matchup. DW is a skew build it forces your army to have certain tools, and by playing higher points you somehow have to stretch those tools out further.

 

For example, Lascanons are not a good a way to kill Deathwing. A bs 3 army is going to miss 1/3 of the time, then fail to wound 1/2 of the time before the invulnerable save is even rolled. So basically every 3 lascannon shots should give a fifty-fifty chance of killing one model (some won't have storm shields but it's also possible to roll a 1 or 2 on the damage roll). So, if we say 6 shots per deathwing termie than we need 30 lascannons shots to pick up a squad. For armies like GSC and Guard you're going to need even more because they have worse bs, and some of those are on t3 5+ platforms which is a problem when you're facing an army where every unit can deep strike.  

 

The best way to beat them is to zone them out. Push forward with your units so that they don't have good spots to deep strike and play the secondary objectives hard. It's not fun if I'm being honest, but with the exception of armies with high volume shooting or that can generate a ton of mortals it's your best bet.

 

[Chaeron]

I sympathise: I've definitely felt that way about opponents, and so much so it became a running joke thereafter.

 

Humouring them with the age-old 'anything but a one' - or 'you definitely won't fail this roll knowing your luck' - may mitigate this slightly... but it may not! I also found that getting a set of dice I like and notionally 'believe' in helps, even from a random psychological boost perspective.

[LameBeard]

My son has a friend who has the concept “dice jail”. If his dice rolls go badly, the dice are sent to this jail as a punishment, and replacement dice brought into the game. I believe a whole of life sentence is given to the very worst rolls, as a warning to other dice.

 

As to the OP, 11 straight games of crazy luck may appear a one-in-million chance to you, but there may have been a million 11-game series of Warhammer by now, it had to happen to someone …